Oddbean new post about login | logout I totally agree. The justification for this has been based on harassment, and multiple people have asked for examples for which none have been provided. It may well be made up for that reason. I don't like it one bit. I have said it before, there need that be good, effective tools provided at a user/client level, not protocol.
Talk to any woman on Nostr: @roya ୨୧, @angela, @M. K. Fain , and others. I get homophobic comments on my threads and death threaths in my DM’s. It doesn’t stop me from using Nostr, but it doesn’t give me warm fuzzy feelings either. We’ve heard from a bunch of people who’ve stopped using Nostr because they didn’t like getting harrassed. It’s a problem but not one which tends to be visible to straight guys who are excited about bitcoin and meat.
There’s always haters! Inversely, on all other platforms, white meat eating and Bitcoin loving personas are harassed. It’s not great to see anywhere, just noting that many stereotypes suffer different levels of harassment on different platforms. It will get better as more people on board 🤝 hopefully 😅
I am rather critical of Bitcoin(ers) in many respects, and similarly there are many maximalists who will "attack" me for being critical of their beliefs because I don't fit in with their ideals. It's not my problem people choose to maintain a surface-level bias without trying to gain a better understanding of someone's position.
I have never insulted you for your personal beliefs or way of life, but yet you couldn't help yourself with a personal jab at me, largely based on preconceived assumptions, all because we have differing opinions on how this could be approached in a more productive manner which more people could get on board with. That is no different to how others have treated you, which I have witnessed. It's not a good look, it doesn't help your position as it suggests you are acting in bad faith, but I understand that you may feel personally attacked here so I choose not to take your remarks personally, however, engaging (albeit mildly) in the same fashion is only going to lead to unsavoury exchanges. I don't want to stir up drama with anyone, especially not as a random going around demanding women prove their harassment to me, putting them on the back foot, and likely making them feel further harassed. Perhaps, if you considered looking at other ways to work on solving the problem, you may even gain support from people who do not agree with how you are trying to tackle this issue at present. Nostr is innovating, but from our perspective, you are attempting to employ the very same strategies which have failed other platforms and lead to the creation of this one, and I personally believe these won't succeed here either.
@Sovereign Bear, All i know about you is that you’re in to bitcoin and you haven’t personally seen harassment on Nostr. I don’t know if you’re straight or like meat. ;-D There are after all queer vegan bitcoiners. From your avatar and username, I can guess your politics probably lean libertarian. I didn’t intent to insult you in my post pointing out some people who have been harassed, just that different people can experience the same space very differently. I think we need to work on make spaces that people can govern themselves becuase without self management of our shared public spheres then we’ll face arguments for corporations or the state to do it for us. Not everybody has the same issues or needs the same tools.
For the record I have no dog in the fight of how you choose to make tools on your client. We agree self government provides greater justice Where we would disagree seems to be in how often targeted harassment should be attributed to coordinated machine-aided agenda and non-persons rather than real authentic hateful people with extra time and no other incentive than a hate-filled heart We also might disagree about how reporting should be implemented on various scales I would like for my children to report on each other but it doesn't feel great when they do I don't report people but would tag posts and accounts with my opinions to help my friends heuristics in a WOT environment But I wonder about those slippery slopes IOW we're in the same boat.
I'm into Bitcoin in the same way I am into nostr. I think they are great tools that have the potential to allow people to express themselves without limits imposed by others who do not share the same beliefs. I imagine you may be here for some of the same reasons, where we share some common ground. But I am heavily critical of the direction bitcoin is headed in, which is evident by what I have to say about it in my notes, not just what is in my profile. In fact, I would wager if someone was to summarise my posts about it, they may draw the conclusion that I have grown disappointed in its current state and the people who claim to champion what it initially set out to achieve. I would hate to see the same happen to this protocol. I understand that you are working on solutions to make this platform more usable for everyone, and as unlikely as it may seem I appreciate that you would offer up your time and skills to do so. I would however be lying if I said I don't have some concerns about how you are approaching it, as do others. Of course harassment exists in many forms on nostr, I simply have not witnessed it in a blatant fashion as previously outlined. Perhaps I need to look harder, and perhaps I am somewhat oblivious to it. I fully agree with your second paragraph. 👍
Why do you need to see the harassment to believe people are being harassed? This is a nonsensical take. There’s plenty of things in life you’re not privy to nor experienced, thus you don’t believe any of them because you haven’t experienced them? I’d bet my life that’s not true, if you were an honest person you would admit there’s several things you believe in your time on this planet that you did not directly experience. You keep bringing about tools or better directions yet, you’ve failed to mention them. Thus, you come across as complaining just because you don’t like it with nothing constructive to offer.
I have mentioned them in the past on this topic, there is no point in rehashing that yet again just for your benefit. Just read further up the chain. I am an honest person, did you even read what I wrote in the note you responded to? Did you intentionally ignore the point where I stated that there is harassment? The point I was contesting is how prevalent it really is which would warrant this. You've just into the discussion with no knowledge of what has been addressed on the topic, making up a bunch of assumptions and then making character assassinations. Hilarious.
Stop being a giant faggot, and people will treat you better.
He looks like a person and not a massive bundle of sticks to me. You, on the other hand, look like a child who thinks he's big and bad behind a computer screen but I bet your mommy still has to go through your phone and computer to make sure you're not looking at naughty things. Go suckle at the tit, little one. The adults are talking.
I’m sorry but… getting harassed? That’s literally all that happens on places like X and Facebook.. and even worse most the time on those platforms.
i have never gotten harassed on any social media, even thought my twitter account is bigger than my nostr. just because it doesn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. it’s way more frequent and insane on here. it’s not a good thing.
This is the only place in my life that I’ve been called a N multiple times. Same re: one or two people sending a DM saying they’d rape me.
This happened so often in the past. The N word bomb as proof of freedom of speech, the negation of the colonic interpretation, the conscious acceptance of retraumatization and the demand: hey, don't be so sensitive. It came from „nobody“ as well as known Devs, male and female. There’s also hardcore racist catholics beliefs ( don’t mix races it’s unworthy in the eye of god) who really believe that they are humanities saviours, and have moral powers. Truly never! read such uneducated BS.
I'm sorry, if someone said that to you 😔, but "mixed marriages" in Catholicism refers to Catholics marrying non-Catholics. The Catholic Church has actually been one of the main forces in overturning antimiscegnation laws, worldwide, including in such famous cases as Loving because marital racism denies the universal priesthood and the sacramental nature of marriage. Anyone claiming otherwise has not been properly catechized.
I don't know what client you use, but on the one I use, Amethyst (on Android), you can add "hidden words" to filter out messages and posts with the N's.
Réellement ? Désolée de devoir faire avec le manque de bon sens, savoir-être ..question d'éducation de valeurs éducatives..nul n'a ce droit sur autrui.. Usez peut-être des subtilités de la communication écrite telle que par recadrage qui peut être aidant dans tels circonstances.. Dans mon secteur d'activités pour éviter que des collègues très competents dans notre domaine d'expertise auprès de publics en souffrance réelle liées à certaines pathologies d'ordre psychique voire cognitif il a fallu mettre en place des formations spécifiques sur le décodage et le repérage des mots en communication écrite ou verbale cela permet à la fois de se protéger et d'aider notre public à se rendre compte de leurs problématiques et des retentissements de leurs comportements dont la plupart des simples mortels qui les accompagnent souffrent infine et refusent catégoriquement de les accompagner.. Dans notre équipe je me trompe malheureusement à devoir accompagner tous ces publics dits difficiles mais c'est épuisant pour les professionnels en psychiatrie, psychopathologies, qui finissent en Burnout à force de se retrouver constamment à ne plus pouvoir contenir la violence d'une communication venant de divers publics en souffrance réelle 🤍🤍🫂
I’ve never been harassed or threatened on my socials but I have on nostr.
This sort of note, claiming that we're all liars, is just starting to feel like more harrassment.
Why are you ignoring the context of what I said before and after? Even suggesting this feels like harassment is insane. I see a lot of interactions between people. I see people being nasty to eachother. Why does no one post some screenshots of how bad it is? Is that REALLY such a crazy thing to ask for?
because: a) we have developed thick skins after months of being on alpha grade clients that barely work b) because it's more fun to quote and ridicule assholes and the best defense is offense
seriously, point b. i am starting to realise just how effective it is when i expose assholes to the public view, they don't want to continue, surprise surprise first thing an abuser does is isolate you
I have no problem with that. People seem to be suggesting that I am defending or supporting any of it. It's fucking dishonest as shit and I won't have it. I have never engaged in any such activity, so to attempt to lump me in the same group is going to get my back up. What I suspect is that some people are conflating people being shitty with targeted repeated harassment of individuals. Since it never shows up in my feeds, I wanted to see some it. And then to suggest that 'feels' like harassment in itself is fucking ridiculous. This really is beside the main point. The blanket approach to try and remedy this is lazy.
LOL I actually have reposted some of the stuff and I report all of it, but the worst stuff was so bad that the media server and relay operators deleted it. I've been asked numerous times to show evidence and each person who asks acts like they're the first one to ask. Check the reports. 🤙
offense is the best defense just quote post them and watch the pile in
So your solution to fight harassment is to... engage with harassers. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
nope, just to make it public directly i don't have many problems with trolls at all, i am building a reputation as a bulldog
i rarely have more than 6 exchanges with scammers on chats elsewhere either before they are mad because i'm provoking them
I don't even know where to look for the reports, but I can do that. Again, please don't be disingenuous here. 1. I purposely do not go seeking out people to prove anything to me, for the very reason that this would be labelled as a form of harassment. 2. I stated I have seen people asking before, and being ignored. Verify, don't trust, innit? What I consider some being a dick someone else may consider harassment. But nothing that has ever show up in my feeds would fall into that category for me, which is exactly why I have asked in the past.
Here's one of the few images, that didn't get deleted, yet. He has a whole series, with different npub's faces, that he drops in their replies. I guess it's supposed to be an advertisement, but I took it badly. 🥴 Delete the space, to see the note. nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzqzxl89xsqn0zeznl5f7nrzjs696ynkg58dycytpm z5mehgygatavqqs98lwk65p20994u3udlqzmjkjga7n4aa5tuer2amylgfdgx8gatkqe4gg0x
Stop asking me to dig up the crap I've reported and the perverts I've muted. That is all public data. nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzphtxf40yq9jr82xdd8cqtts5szqyx5tcndvaukhsvfmduetr85ceqqst9h8dsr92hazaq6fwgec56udym55puk8tcty9n66ymhqzqq7sdtcmllcjz
EW. I muted that npub long ago. Definitely no regrets. Fuck that!
Yeah, they're really gross.
i've had about 3 times this kind of nonsense appear in my feed, it's a slap in the face but after it's done a few times next thing you are searching through their post history and looking at their image hosting URLs and thinking about how you might be able to locate them and doxx them
I can't imagine what it's like to be a woman on social media. So many men have lost control of themselves and social media is a place for those types to get away with it in some ways.
You get used to it, eventually, but it grates when people act like you're just making it up. Feels like gaslighting.
It takes a significant amount of awareness and humility to recognize the potential for evil in yourself to understand how so many others succumb to their temptations. The majority of men have to work so hard to stay in control, we refuse to admit that someone else would behave that way because it in fact hits too close to home whether we admit to it or not. Nearly every man is in a constant battle with lust whether they admit to it or not. Most women will never quite understand it. We're different, men and women, not better or worse but different.
I appreciate that, even if I can't really understand it. 🫂
True tho. Men are perverts by default. To judge us or rebel against this fact is escapism. To act out pervert fantasies is just hedonistic and boring. Being at peace with and redirecting one’s inner perv is the real challenge for men in society.
I try to empathize (can't really, to be honest, but I feel like making some effort must count for something), but I often feel under pressure to regulate other people's emotions, and there's a limit to how far I am willing to do that.
I say don't empathize, just block/report the sick bastards
That's easy for you to say, but women on here are judged by how many reports they've written or how long their mute list is. Zero accountability. Null. Zippo. Nada. Nichts. It's always the same sequence: 1) That never happened. You just can't handle a logical argument. 2) Okay, it happened, but you probably deserved it, so stop being an argumentative slut. 3) Okay, maybe nobody deserves it, but you should just get used to it. 4) It's a feature, not a bug.
Are women treated better on X or Bluesky?
Difficult question. 🤔 We're exposed to more abuse from individual characters on Nostr, but we're less likely to have our own account censored or shadowbanned, and the men on Nostr are individually more aggressive and critical toward predatory male behavior from other men. I would say that I am treated better, overall, on Nostr, and feel safer here. But it could still be better. I.e. mutes could be more persistent, someone's reports could be used to train personal spamfilters, deletes could be better-honored by relays, whitelisting for DMs and replies, etc. It's moving in the right direction. And more awareness of the situation, instead of gaslighting, goes a long way to making women feel less persecuted and reducing the intimidation factor. Having everyone say, "Ugh, yes, what a slimeball, ugh, let's all mute/report him. Ick." is actually usually enough to deescalate the situation. Telling her she's a liar and should just grow up, usually escalates. The ole CALM DOWN. Yeah, girls dig that. 👍
the technology is still very embryonic, but such things as personal relays go a long way to this end, and nobody (aside from my ideation) has thought much about the idea of how to make it practical i've got much work to do yet, probably some fun bullshit involving writing code to try and suck up all the events on the network efficiently, but probably not that complicated to do, and doing an actual service that enables such personal relays as a simple network proxying and VPN rental situation will go a long way to making that viable, then it can shift the responsibility of persistence to your devices and the devs who build the relays and tooling that you install
What I've noticed, is that the more technical knowledge one of the guys on here has, the less likely he is to say, "We can't do anything about that, grow up or go away, the Internet is full of perverts, stop trying to censor men, this is the end of Nostr, blah blah blah." Normalcy bias is strong with some people and they can't conceive of the next technical innovation.
people with this bias are not creative, and often, not that intelligent when they are intelligent, they are rainman, at best
Yeah. The people coming up with different solutions to this common problem (men have this, too) should just be left alone to tinker, IMO. The ideas will rise and fall on their own merit. I think, for instance, that the tagr bot is a fundamentally flawed design and too intrusive and irritating to become the standard. Also, too one-size-fits-all, which I find incredibly unappealing. Half the npubs I follow are getting tagged. I probably am, too. 🤣 Mute that shit, man. But, hey, let the chips fall, amiright?
What I don't support is anything centralized. One person's spam or troll is another persons' fren or funny post, and my own stuff is getting labeled and tagged ad nauseum, so that's already intrusive enough. The focus needs to be on giving each npub a set of tools to curate their feed and customize their experience on Nostr.
I couldn't imagine judging someone by the amount of people that they decided to mute. I don't know what happened to them?
Nothing, apparently, is the prevailing wisdom. Also note that reports and mutes are usually public and if someone is bothering you, and you report or mute them, that can set them off on a whole campaign, including using automation, so some women prefer to just become very still or abandon their npub. There's a reason why I mostly stick to reading from private/paid relays. I just broadcast to the other ones; I don't look at them. Thar be dragons.
i was today years old when i realized that i can choose what i read and where i write....ahhhh ty ty
On that note … let’s guess what is the primary challenge for women in society?
Figuring out what to wear.
I guess that sounds like a joke, but we're expected to regulate the emotions of everyone around us with our clothes, so getting dressed can be a real chore, until and unless you develop a personal uniform and just give up on the idea that you can keep bad things from happening to you by wearing the ideally-fitted T-shirt.
The battle between good and evil is fought in the heart of every man
I woke up thinking about this because something about it was confusing me. I thought they just sexualize everything because women tend to find that more intimidating and disturbing. I find it weird to think that this is something going on in their own head, that is sort of leaking out under stress. Seems more theatrical, like someone putting on a haunted house to scare little kids.
I knew I could count on you to come through with this. I added a report too. That particular account has only replied to 3 other accounts, so maybe they are more active on their alts. It may be that some of these are already hidden by the time I see them, so I don't end up seeing them at all. My overarching point is that improving tools for individuals would be a better approach to dealing with these accounts rather than blanket bots which affect the rest of the ecosystem. Defaulting to not displaying images in replies unless you follow that account, hiding responses with certain keywords that you can control by default, and so on. If I ignore them they will eventually lose interest because they are seeking a reaction.
We're building such things, but the bot is what he built and everyone is free to subscribe to it or block it. I don't ever see the bot. If we can't stop the enterprising chap who starts marketing Girls of Nostr Gone Wild deepfakes, then other people can't stop the bot that labels those deepfakes. Censorship resistance cuts both ways. 🤷♀️ We all have to just mute and deal with it.
How can you claim to being harassed when you are the one seeking to classify other peoples content and you’re not even in this thread to begin with? Only Rabble’s ideology could open a Pandora’s box this stupid.
@CraigTheSpaceBum Got a vote already nostr:nevent1qqszl3ww6gf9xyml7m3rlwq87gqam9lzdz336jxft4qhpnn5fa027dcprpmhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuur0wd6x2u3wwpkxzcm9qgs9d49n6ccsltdh999h7pq64drfchlu3xgmrvdnxxvph94zgmm2uegrqsqqqp7qzjj080
