Oddbean new post about login | logout In our user research, we found that most people joining Nostr get turned off and leave when they have somebody harass them or when they see harassment. So a way to protect free speech and also address these issues are to provide a way of users to choose labels and filters to shape their experience. It empowers relay operators to choose what they want to host, and users to decide what they want to see in their clients. Nobody's telling you that you can't say whatever the hell you want on Nostr, but it is giving people tools to shape their social experience. We see lots of women join Nostr, love what it offers, and then be harassed until they leave. This has happened many times. While you may want a platform which feels like 4chan, lots of others don't. You should be able to have your flamewar fun time while others don't have deal with that. Nostr is held back because of the reputation of the content on the platform, not the quality of the apps and features of what we're doing. I'm saying, we should be able to use the protocol with communities of many norms. Look at how many people are accusing Nostr with being a pro-nazi platform... https://www.google.com/search?q=nostr+nazi+bar
The answer is to put tools in users hands via nostr client extensions. It is not to centralize and claim authority. Your base instinct is central solution. Do you not grok?
What makes you think that one nostr bot posting labeling notes only to it's own relay is centralized claiming of authority? The problem is that @Vitor Pamplona has decided in his app that all report notes should be shown in the global feed and as replies even if they're not somebody you follow or care about. Every other app just uses these if they're relevant to the user. Switch apps, because this IS handled by nostr clients and you're choosing a client which throws it in your face. To be clear, @Vitor Pamplona is totally within his rights as a nostr client developer to decide how he wants to display reports to his users. Amethyst is open source, he's happy for people to fork it and make versions that work differently, or better yet, provide PR's to change it's functionality. I think "report" is a terrible name for content labeling because it keeps people thinking that there's somehow some magical secret centralized authority which is getting those reports and taking action on them. That's not how Nostr works. I think we should change the nip to say 'content labeling' and 'flagging users' / 'flagging content' because that's what's happening in Nostr. The apps in the AppStore / Google Play will still need to have it say Report in the UI, but that's their platform monopoly requirements. Relay operators have the power to choose what content they'll host. Almost all do filtering and dropping content based on their own decisions. Nostr isn't a 'you have to listen to me protocol' nor is it a "you have to host my content" protocol. You get the ability to say what you want, but so does everybody else. If you want to make sure your content is online, run a relay. That's what we did with @Reportinator , and we don't put it's content on anybody else's relays at all. And because it's all open source, you can compile your own version without any content reporting or labeling.
a relay is a central entity on the network thhere are many but each is a point of centralization. Placing yourself in a censorious role at the centralization was your instinct for solving an issue in decentralized space. There is no magic and it will end up killing your project. Once people understand that you are willing to stand between their tools and raw data there will be an exodus. face it now face it later. But dont mess around too hard. Some of us will take it personally.
I write open source software on an open source permissionless protocol. Relays are only centralized if you choose to, if you want to only use the Damus relay, then you're choosing to give @jb55 authority over what content you can publish or see. If you're so concerned about this issue, i strongly recommend you setup a relay, i recommend: https://github.com/hoytech/strfry And develop a plugin to strfry that rejects all kind 1984 events. Here's the instructions: https://github.com/hoytech/strfry/blob/master/docs/plugins.md And if you want to run a service that reports all of my content, you're welcome to do so. Here's the code which is open source and you're free to use and modify as you see fit. https://github.com/planetary-social/reportinator_server See, i'm not telling you want to say or do, go for it, but all I ask is that you realize free speech only works if it is for everybody.
its only for everyone if you stay the hell out of it and stop trying to censor people. Doesn't matter. Unless feds fund you or a banker somewhere (my be your plan) your silly project is soon to be dead in the water. Too many other projects for you to compete with a boat anchor called censorship around your neck. I would say good luck but I dont mean it. I wish you long life and health. But also that you dont try to bring censorship to the platform.
Censorship is about suppressing speech, but somehow you're saying that my speech, which you're choosing to see, is suppressing your speech? Just use an app that doesn't support kind 1984 events. Use relays that don't support kind 1984 events. Mute bots you don't like. You also might want to google me before you think that my projects are doomed or that I've just appeared on the scene. ;-D
no, my speech is not supressable by the likes of you. I am saying, again, that seeking a central solution in a distributed network is a choice. you made that choice. I am telling you to not meddle with peoples data stream. We all know that you want your functionality to be adopted widely. then its not just on your little server anymore. what about the collabs that you have considered or discussed? what happens when snicthbot is buried 3 layers deep in the protocol and is more hidden from common view. You have an instinct for centralization and censorship and safe spaces. Just admit it to yourself. we already know now. dont have to tell us.
Look, if somehow i managed to convince all the nostr devs and folks managing the nostr nip process to do this, then you could just make versions of the apps and spec which didn't do that. We're an open source permissionless decentralized protocol. Why is it you get to reply to me but i can't reply back to you? Do you not like the @Reportinator events? Why not make a bot that reports all the reports. Or use a client that doesn't choose to read them. You're choosing to see this stuff you're upset with. Just don't.
Are you honestly still not understanding. you had two choices for how to proceed in a decentralized environment. You chose central service and censorship. Thats you. wheter you wanna admit to yourself or not. You chose central when you did not have to. you chose filter when you could have chosen client side functionality. you did that bro. Not me. You did it publicly and we see you. You tried to be arrogant and send me to watch your 49 minute talk instead of having the conversation. I almost had to shame you into it because deep down you know how we would all react. This is the way with censors. You have no idea how many of you I have met and fired from prjects and turfed from positions once I sniffed it. The world has changed. I am no longer theonly one that sees you lot. You guys overplayed the safety hand badly. If I catch you in my stream I will destroy your infrastructure. So do what you do but stay outta my stream.
You've spent more time replying to me on here than it would have taken to watch the talk. But again, it's your choice about what media you consume. Do you want the bot to be taken offline? Do you think that content reports are inappropriate speech on Nostr? Do you have any idea how Nostr works? @Reportinator is not a centralized service. It's a single nostr identity which posts content reports on what it sees on the nostr network to it's own relay. Where in the Nostr spec does it say, you must go and read content from Reportinator. Or you must remove content from your relay because of what's published by some random bot? Where does it say that your open source nostr client should request Reportinator events form the Reportinator relay and use them to shape what you see? How is any of that centralization? The code for this is open source, running on our servers, nobody has to pay attention to it. https://github.com/planetary-social/cleanstr In fact, most clients and relays completely ignore 1984 events. But why don't you make a version that labels any content you feel is woke so that you can filter that out of your feed. I think that'd be a good thing, it's not what I want to run, but I've created the tools for you to do that.
1 Yes I do. 2 If your infrastructure is filtering between me and raw data at any time I will smash it. 3 you are wrong 4 be better
5 do better
Quotations from Chairman Maher https://www.city-journal.org/article/quotations-from-chairman-maher
Woke is funny. I am enjoying the heat death of the wokieverse immensely . see how a non censor behaves? I would never dream of filtering speech for others. I would have chosen tools for the user. You are what you are bro. You are just making it worse.
You want it darker What doesn’t know. 💌 https://image.nostr.build/ef811a28f95be741acc4f13ece3c51190b5f040703d827c99f7368ed72de0163.jpg
ALL Acute Lymphoblastic Leukaemia Big Pharma fucking hates your guts https://music.apple.com/de/album/all-good-feat-chaka-khan/1673761955?i=1673762116&l=en-GB
Missed me. Sipping coffee on stopping time. Hit? https://image.nostr.build/6da48d2fa87a43b91b8b15b6d192d297b08e032cb268fb1338c37dafea8badb2.jpg
This conversation reminds me of Karl Popper’s paradox of intolerance, wherein the only thing a tolerant person should not tolerate is intolerance because it leads to the end of tolerance. I think (maybe I’m wrong) what @Pepe_NOSTRos is arguing is that this kind of bot is not simply another instance of free speech or a project on the protocol, but is antithetical to the ethos of the protocol itself. That not anything can be tolerated on this open protocol, and this is pushing it. Because no one can stop you, the alternative is to point out how antithetical this truly is and make it reputational suicide to push it, ironically reporting *you* at the meta level for creating a reporting bot. Once people see this kind of intolerance will not be tolerated, they will cease trying to report people, for the “greater good”, for “public safety” “for the women” “to save the children” for “national security” or whatever other noble reason one can conjure. That doesn’t mean women being harassed on nostr isn’t a real issue to solve, only that it has to be done in a way that’s in keeping with the ethos of the protocol. But it’s possible I’m misunderstanding.
No you nailed it. Concise clean and unemotional. Thank you.
This also touches upon the very definition of "intolerance"; Karl Popper has been erroneously or even wickedly invoked ten thousand times and his message twisted nearly beyond recognition by the Twitter mob (etc.) most of which have likely never read his works and reasoning. Irt. The reporting bot/system: Automated tools must be crafted with extreme care and likewise run with extremely pernicious oversight, since they are extremely powerful. A script is "awake" 24 hours a day and can react to incoming data every second of those 24 hours. A human needs rest for at least 8 hours per day, and to evaluate a situation at hand, a good long while to read what has been said and done, and the context surrounding it, to make a proper judgment. Machine tools enables making potentially very serious errors at the speed of silicon, while the human operators or originators are asleep or absent and not able to stop them. #thoughts #nostr #grownostr nostr:nevent1qqs0ns974zq2gqdd63zcxmw703cal9w9pxeqe2yukfdf4uw2hng4cpqpz3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wcpzq6knu235sx9320yp7jx93azw2xv70d8u3klr0qg2qqxuu0yska6qqvzqqqqqqydqc6s2
100%. This is also why it is important not to establish a "monoculture" on filtering. Centralised systems are monocultures by necessity, but even decentralised ones can become so if most users cannot have tools to customise them. My little system was built with the thought of preventing that, but i havent had many people try it yet
did your silly ass just make a claim to authority? bro we are talking about this issue. I have projects and victories too. yee freaking ha welcome to being capable. What do your former projects have to do with this issue? Uggh. you get more and more PMC fed smelling with every comment. kinda gross bro ngl
You opened yourself up. You demonstrated to what lengths you will go to appease your Almighty Google and Apple. This is who you are. A snitch who builds snitch bots under the guise of noble gallantry. It doesn't matter if it's happily running on your own instance of homemade nostr. You had the nerve to imagine it, and see it built. You Glowing Judas. Enjoy your boot 👢
Hum... Why is the bot creating reports and not NIP-32 labels? Those are two very different things in my mind. If you want labels, use NIP-32 not NIP-56.
Free speech does not always make you feel good. This is a product of living in a bubble for so long people can't handle crass thought or idea. This is a public square not kindergarten.
So why are you all upset about my ‘crass’ labeling of your speech? Why do you get free speech to say what you want but somehow I shouldn’t have the same free speech rights to comment on it?
Oh you do, and please do. Please build your filters and promote them. But don't expect people who respect the 1st amendment to cheer you on.
The US Constitution 1st Amendment is about what the US congress does with regards to actions by the US government covering Americans. Nostr was not created by Americans, it's not run by Americans, and it's definitely not a project of the American government.
Bro this is free speaxh. We aren't stopping you say what you like. Then we will too. See how that works?
It's ok to censor cuz daddy technology giant says so. "Let's protect free speech by reporting bad people" NOSTR is the wild west. Don't be a damn victim. Get out of the fire if you can't stand the heat. It's tough love, and it will grow OVER TIME. Long term preference. Rabble, you did this to yourself. All too eager to betray the NOSTR values. For what. Now everyone knows that you glow.
I’m not the snowflake demanding somebody else stop using Nostr how they like. You’re the one demanding I stop posting stuff on Nostr that you don’t like.
Show me please where I demanded such a thing. I will say that your bot is a work of ass-kissery. Never said take it down or stop. Code is free speech too. Just don't expect people to praise your brand of bullshit code. People judge one another by the content of their speech. Yours is full of , "I'm gonna tell on you!" nostr:nevent1qqsyjz35vqa2t6283rhdvgkqfr7epvz23j4fp784tws5a94l9rrunqgpp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzypmvwx4w8fy378v7a3ruhgt7y2wd5sgn5zamde4wzamdwep798905qcyqqqqqqgtl293g
He's just like the people working at OpenAI
Rabble to his gf: I reported all the bad ppl on nostrr today, will you let the BBC cum on me Mommy? https://image.nostr.build/a5695e6af1262bea73c4a8f02b1713b04af35dc329c1f76d61617e2d73c00220.jpg
Keep posting bro we won't try stop you. You are digging the hole deeper anyway. Not how we roll. Our arguments sound no need to cower or reach for the censor button.
the other note is about your bot. this is about you. this one is personal. "flame war fun" is the bit that outed you as a bit of a classist. We are not talking about flame wars and your use of that term is derogatory in this context. uncalled for. Next. "While you may want a platform which feels like 4chan, lots of others don't." again insinuations with negative connotations. Next "communities of many norms" is another of the recently rediscovered phrases that statists hide behind as justification for segregation and censorship. Next "Nostr is held back because of the reputation of the content on the platform" thats your judgement. You dont have the right to enforce it. Next If you keep deploying silly bots that attrack freedom then some of us will have to deploy far more effective bots to defend ourselves against you if you dont just wither on the vine. Then we have chaos.
I'll give you my 100% objective opinion as someone who's here kinda by chance. creating a platform or protocol with 0% moderation will never attract the masses. Yes nostr will eventually get the reputation of being a heaven for nazis, white supremasists and even pedophiles, 'normies' as you call them don't want that. Just look at the popularity of tiktok where you can't even say words like 'suicide' or 'murder'... now I get that you might not care about 'normies' and it's great if they don't come but the discussions about how nostr will become profitable to the people working on it say otherwise.
You are absolutely correct. the issue is where the tools reside. User / client side or on infrastructure somewhere. If its on infrastructure then we are recentralizing and creating chokepoints that are very attractive to censorship / authourtarian types. no one wants a garbage feed. I just dont trust anyone I dont know to filter it for me.
if it's just at the user level it's still considered a 'garbage feed'. just because a user chooses not to see posts let's say about zoophilia it doesn't mean the posts are not there, and 'normies' generally don't want to be part of a community that looks like the dark web, so nostr need to look for something else.
Filter on client by default
I think there should be different clients with different levels of moderation, ranging from zero moderation (forums on the dark web) to a lot of moderation (tiktok level of moderation). after all people download an app (client) they don't care about what's on the other clients.
cool but in the end the one that gives you any level you want will win through wider appeal. as a note thought. If the ISP's blocked porn there would never have been a www. I remember the early days. The web you know was built on filth that few people ever saw. Not my bag. I dont partake in the kinks. However they have a right to use infrastructure like anyone else. The infrastructure people got waaaay too uppity during late 90s to 2010s. They centralized everything to the server and called it convenience and safety focus. Now we have a censorable and highly censored www. This is the basic issue that leads me to say. Put the tools on the clients. I dont trust anyone to filter at the infrastructure. They have all proven themselves unworthy of that trust so far. All have said this time is different.
I agree with you (except the part where everyone has the right to the infrastructure, for me not everyone should have the right to the infrastructure like pedophiles because they present a danger, same for terrorists). otherwise I understand that people have different expectations. for example you want to have access to everything and then filter it yourself and I prefer that it's filtered for me because I prefer not to be 'in contact' with certain content. having different clients is probably the solution but at the same time they should be 'impermeable' to each other to a degree.
on unfiltered infrastructure they cannot hide as they can now. They use it the clients can auto report without telling you if you choose such a hypothetical setting. Trading freedom and openness for fear and censorship is a non starterr for me. It is harder to do it from the client in a decentralized way at the moment but it is possible. centralization and attendant temptation / ability to censor is not something that we should be encouraging if we actually want an open internet experience. How often do you see those things now? If you dont follow them you shouldnt see them. I dont. dunno why you would. leads me to say that user side tools can do the job and the community is not as dirty as some seem to say. this could be as simple as an llm to prechew your feed for you that learns your preferences over time or as heavy as an extensions layer supported by privacy focused DVM's that you can use for heavy lifting if needed. The point is that there are options that don't give back the decentralization we have fought so hard for.
I come across them because I'm a curious person I click on profiles I don't know. Decentralization isn't just about being anti-censorship it's also about avoiding the 36 million ads on your feeds like on facebook/instagram, not dealing with twitter stupid algos,not getting an ad on facebook for something you just talked about on messenger. for now nostr is an echo chamber and the whole anti-censorship thing is pretty popular here probably because of the influence from the bitcoin culture. I really respect the fact that you want total control over what you see on nostr and not relying on others to choose for you. but personally I believe when you sign up for a social network you need to "vibe" with its overall culture, I wouldn't join 4chan (if it's still around) and then complain about people being racists misogynists. the good thing is nostr is a protocol where there can be an unlimited number of clients and each one can customize the experience for its specific audience. maybe there would be a rose-tinted glasses client for people like me.
your use of the word impermeable gave me another idea for explaining. We wear clothes because we are not impermeable to our environment. We each choose what clothes to wear based on the experience we want to have. The anaolgy here is therefore that I could ask my town council to put a dome over the town and that would be much more convenient for everyone. Save a lot on snow removal too. Ok but now you are in a bubble. who has the keys. If they lock the doors what do you do? If they change the air quality "for your benefit" would you even know? If so, what can you do about it. Seems safer for a human to just put on a jacket. I am suggesting jacket. Censors are suggesting bubble.
oh final note because it bears saying often. pedos dont deserve the use of their own teeth as far as I am concerned, but my viewpoint is mine. It is not my right to touch the data. Leave it alone. Its not ours.
also I dont understand why people keep saying darkweb. Its not actually a thing. Its a propaganda term that was popularized by the centralizers in early web days. It basically means that if the feds (google and the gang) dont index it then its bad. This is an old battle but I dont think it actually matters soon. The functionality that used to have to run on web servers will start to migrate back to the client side as personal ai takes hold. The issue there will be the same but I think the cat is out of the bag, be well
https://www.newsweek.com/story-jewish-lawyer-who-defended-free-speech-rights-nazis-1771393 Here's a story that might change your perception. Build whatever the hell you want I don't care; it's an open project that people can do what they want. Just so we're clear this is the type of neo-liberal bullshit thought that put us where we are today.
and by the way. dont show me opinions on google. You have no idea how easy those are to manufacture.
Block move on
Exactly.
This is a direct contradiction of your position. People don't need a bot to shape their experiences when they can just block and move on. Just pointing that out.
Nobody's asking you to use this bot. Nobody's asking you to follow it. Just like nobody on Nostr has any obligation to host or view your content.
No one asked the neighbor to diddle his kid but I still kicked his ass every time I saw him til he moved. He took me to court. I framed the fine. You are diddling the community on the sneak tip. Hiding behind fear of safety. Weak.
Bloquer et passer à autre chose ne peuvent rendre nostr pérenne.. ce serait un échec mais s'atteler aux DM de où l'on trouve toute sorte de proposition liée à Bitcoin est l'une des priorités d'ailleurs à chaque je suis obligée de répliquer ces derniers temps en indiquant qui gère mes Bitcoin d'autant plus qu'il est nostr.. Nous ne sommes pas tous ici pour les mêmes raisons..
Block what?
What you no like
cool.
I find it interesting that so many people reacted so strongly to the idea that users should have more tools to curate their personal experience on Nostr. I feel like some people confuse having the right to free speech with the idea that I should have to listen to or read it. I do highly recommend people step out of their echo chambers and follow people with differing viewpoints. I’ve always wanted the ability to have different presets for my feed that I can turn on and off before scrolling. Like some days I just want to turn off all political posts and just see things I consider fun and funny.
I wonder why I never see anything offensive?
Maybe u are not easily offended? Or some of them are lying? Both?
J'ai été insulté de manière flagrante par un notriche dont j'ignorais l'existence, 'cet échange peut servir d' exemple pourtant il n'y avait d'offensant ni provoquant en tombant sur une de mes notes ce dernier m'a fait savoir qu'il m'avait mise en sourdine tout usant des mots inappropriés un autre s'y melait et en pris pour grade.. En fine ce fut une bonne expérience certainement pour notre trio éphémère... M'est avis si l'on tombe sur une note soit on lit ensemble soit on passe, qu' elle dérange pas ou ait l'intérêt tout dépend de chaqu'indivvidu tout sachant certains qui ont besoin d'attention peuvent en souffrir voire se faire provoquer jusqu'à partir et ce serait dommage car dans ces types de cas on vacille entre mode sauveur, guérisseur, ami,... Sachons que nous ne pourrions en ligne faire avec tous les divers types de personnalités... On peut être drôle ou plaintif voire exubérant dans certains sujets, mais tout dépend de certaines occurences.. Je dérange certes par la langue que j'utilise littéralement.. par moment je fais l'effort d'expliquer si mes propres notes sont incomprises...modére mes propos le plus possible.. Quant aux genres j'ai trop peu remarqué la genre masculine évoquer leur besoins naturels (démons de midi liés à la sexualité , conception, enfantement, recherche de partenaires en ligne par exemple par rapport à la genre féminine est-ce un progrès ou pas ?? très peu d'exposition du genre neutre..
Merci
And they call the speeding guy ranting endless wording regurgitated diarrhoea 🙂↔️ https://image.nostr.build/d559935ed5cbf19ce2098034ac15a376cbd0c819001153d44d8476eb677f939a.jpg
Ceci a déjà remonté par Snowden ce qui n'a guère plu par une des premières notriche laquelle a dû supprimé son compte début avril pour des raisons semble-il de harcèlement.. En fait nous sommes sur nostr l'idée est de se dire qu'on est tous des adultes nous nous devons d'être ouverts d'esprits mais de savoir user des différents types de communication, de l'une des clés est l'usage du recadrage ... Mode adulte adulte, rend la communication beaucoup plus saine tout en aidant n'importe l'autre dans ses propres.. 'tout necessite un repérage de certains mots, termes voire emojis.. Touts les autres modes type enfant ou sauveur ne fonctionnent pas sauf si l' on veut tomber dans un certain mal-être en ligne qui biaiserai la plate-forme y compris les utilisateurs Liberté d'expression en ligne c'est trop facile, toujours en période d'observation curieuse de tout, prête à participer mais pas à tout contenu depuis les débuts je vous avoue qu'il y a des sujets récurrents ou des petits groupes qui se font puis se défont à tour de likes ou d'emojis qui ne sont pas très aidant pour le ou la notriche qui peut en souffrance que l'on peut détecter par certains de mots ou d'occurrences.. Sur nostr cela peut être complexe à longs termes pour certains puisqu'il s'ennuient peut-être ou sont en quête d'un *truc* que je qualifierai illusoire... Je poux peut-être me tromper.. mais ne basculerai sur certaines postures qui ne me semblent guère vraies à moins d'un miracle ces types de profils de notriches peuvent être en danger réel car non prêts sur le plan psychologique...me demande si leurs proches savent qu'ils mettent en ligne !? Quant à sourdiner si tout un chacun si met la plate-forme n'évoluerait qu'entre professionnellement et pourquoi !?
Hard to know when some stupid idea is going to blindside you on a random Tuesday in a coffee shop line with a stranger. People say crazy shit IRL too and we love the idea of gathering all the madness together in specific pockets of weirdness 🤷🏼 I have come to like my little corner of #nostr feels like a bit of something carved out for myself that’s just happy to be acknowledged like might not agree with what you’re saying but definitely gm 🤙🏻
And to be clear everyone should absolutely have whatever filters they need to have at their disposal to function, whatever the purpose of gazing into this abyss that is #nostr might be.
Users should not infrastructure
No man we’re just here to fuck shit up make the devs regret showing the dumber monkeys any and all trickery.
I'm not that monkey and not that Dev so they picked the wrong frog tda
Grammar users not need either!
thats not a sentence
you know we are gonna meet in person one day and you are gonna cower and scurry right. I will get on a panel with you at some point. Dont be a keyboard hero. You will look awful stupid when you have to stand and be polite. Stop being a dick and go write your censor bot project. I think you know the backlash you are gonna get. so enjoy. This is tip of iceberg if you persist.
wen grammar nazi bot? 🤖
were you too dim to infer a comma?
"I feel like some people confuse having the right to free speech with the idea that I should have to listen to or read it." Sounds like a straw-man; who thinks this way? Does the mute function not serve this purpose? What limitations does it have? Tools to create word filters and your own lists that you can switch between is fine, great even - I can see the benefits of that for giving people the ability to create their own experiences without resorting to using bots to build profiles of people (which may or may not be accurate), when people may not even be aware that this is happening.
Agree on all fronts the issue is that if it is not client side then we have just created central point for future censorship. We have a choice where to put the functionality. We can censor or we can put tools in client space. No one wants a polluted feed but some don't want anyone else having any part in deciding what is pollution. Respectfully
A tool to curate your feed is follow tags of people let's say, posts about cooking, posts about well being, art posts. These go on the positive side, no one will be made if someone tags their content with "exercice". The problem is a bot labeling your content as "harassment", "hate speach" because you said "retarded"
I curse like a drunken sailor sometimes. If someone wants a bot to prevent seeing posts where my language gets colorful. Great! I’m not owed an audience. Nor do I really care to interact with people so easily offended. I figure it works out for both parties.
It's not just not seeing, its your content gets tagged, with time and more bots your notes will be labbed accordingly to this bots, and it almost becomes part of the protocol, and you don't know if the labelin is fair at all, imagine your content being labeled "racist" and people might follow you or not based on that. A client might show your profile with those tags.
People can do this as an attack if the don't like you. Flag you out of spite. Just gives tools to oppress. I don't expect my message to find a place in people's minds. But I do mind my messages getting flagged for benign reasons. Smacks of boot licking, daddy govt worshipping.
The thing is people will follow the most "reliable" bot, but then you create a problem, it's a bot, it will make a lot of mistakes, people will complain about not being seen, getting wrong flags etc. And the the bot owner is going to make some tweeks to accommodate, so basically this person is in fact responsible for the tagging of behalf of hundred or thousands of people. And your right, it's a privacy concern also.
Bots need a human hand behind them. Are humans infalible? I think not. Will the bots do dumb shit? Yes, they will. Garbage code in, crap results out. What makes this worse, is that Rabble is thinking that he's the one for the job. Not a single human being on the face of the earth is qualified to police another person's speech. Unless you are a parent to a three year old who says "fuck" a lot. Then you have a different set of problems.
And now do Main Volume and his racist and misogynistic slurs. Nostr has lots of bots. I’ve read the thread carefully. You want your idea of free speech and being against "leftist thoughts“ and other nonsense to be seen as normal? So let others have their protection from it. That’s a lot of reframing while you’re promoting a thicker skin that you obviously don’t have yourself. If you’ve talked about the topic without insults, I would have tried to believe in your noble efforts to save us all from the wrong bots. Now, I'll mute you, and happily try other methods to avoid wasting time on your dull content.
Agree. Many Nostr advocates will talk about freedom of speech, while working to ensure that community continues to be an echo chamber for bitcoiners and people with certain political leanings. This is also why there is so much resistance to tweaks to the platform that would attract a more diverse user base in terms of interests and content. The Nostr community then has the nerve to act clueless about why Nostr doesn’t have more mainstream appeal. I can find more varied content and discussions on traditional social media, which is ironic considering nostriches view Nostr as a bastion of freedom of thought/speech. Even when reading comment threads on Nostr, I rarely see differing opinions or perspectives shared. There is also a lack of nuance in the opinions offered. The community is very homogeneous and that’s a problem and boring quite frankly.
I agree with you that noster can get very boring but at what point has the community ever tried to hinder growth?
A lot newcomers have spoke about having difficulty finding new people to follow with similar interests beyond bitcoin and typical Nostr talk. There are solutions that exist to do this, but there’s resistance to implementing them because using algorithms violates user freedom according to some people. The onboarding process also isn’t straightforward. Most people have to find a tutorial online in order to set up their an npub and wallet. These things negatively affect the user experience and are barriers to the platform growing. I know these things take time to develop. I am not a dev, so I am complaining about things that I can’t fix and requesting people to do free labor for my convenience, which is annoying. On the other hand, if you are building a platform, then you should care about user feedback.
We’re working on it. nostr:note1kvvn8ygjntsrts0lq4ndz943eu7regwcqske4r0uejs6j58030tstgglmv
I think onboarding onto primal is a good fix for now while the other clients improve. As for algos, as long as you can choose if you want one or not and you can pick between multiple, then it's fine. I'm curious if there's any actual devs blocking this, or if it's just a fear.
We talked to about a hundred current and former users of Nostr. There were many themes that emeged. One was that people who didn’t know about bitcoin kind of liked being able to do zaps. Another was that they wanted to see content not talking about bitcoin, using it was cool, but constantly talking about it wasn’t their jam. Many users felt like the branding of Nostr as being anti-censorship and radically pro-free speech would draw a crowd they weren’t interested in being part of, that was a perception issue. Many users, and in particular women, had been repeatedly harassed and stalked. They were fine with people saying the most offensive stuff but they didn’t want to see it in their notifications, dm’s, on a global feed, in trending posts, or as replies to their posts. The content labeling and report functionality that people are complaining about are ways for Nostr users to control their own experience. We created content warnings and client filtering options because it solved a problem that was driving people away from Nostr. Now one important thing, Nos and most Nostr apps only display and use reports from people you follow. To use and display all reports and labels from any relay and any npub is a bad idea. It opens you up to anyone who wants to spam you. The only folks who should see or care about @Reportinator are the people who follow it. Just like the dm’s are divided up between people you follow and randos. Nostr is about you having the sovereignty over what you publish and what your relays host. You choose which client you want to use, that decides what data you see and which algorithms are used to sort the posts. You do not get a say over what other people publish or what they host in their relays. Some people want content labeling and reporting. Some people want to use a bot which does AI labeling. Is it perfect, far from it, but it is part of the design of Nostr that there isn’t some centralized system of control. That means if other people want a bot that labels content, all you can do is choose not to use that content. You can not censor the bot off of the network.
Main Volume is one wild Bot 🤖…
I got my kids to stop saying “fuck” when they were little by explaining what it means. Kind of like I’m explaining how Nostr works to folks freaking out about someone else on Nostr publishing report and label events that reference their content.
The issue is whether I have the tools or some infrastructure does. If infrastructure does then we have a problem
Curating your feed exactly the way you want it, is not censorship nostr:nevent1qqszmmkq3pukmssvg6u527j5jg6p88jl9z3rrvtf75xy47f7w2neurcpz3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wcpzpudawh9n9rw3squpy04c2gcr3e8wa4x92937yrw5yn87an2c7gzwqvzqqqqqqyhqhden
Agreed. Curating your feed is not censorship. It's basically like creating a diet. Deciding who's thoughts you want to digest. If I don't want someone I don't want to digest in my feed then I don't have to have them. Different diets work for different people. nostr:nevent1qqsd3phhm0adh5hj8rgszr4dlcsval3l8y9cvvfkavrysn6eqsdp9zcpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmqzyrd4q65fjl7amjnustcqx68hnxaqt48fy0lzzlsdufh897a0kxrkxqcyqqqqqqgzjrq46
This. 💜
The mute and report button already exist, people are perfectly capable of using these tools at their own discretion. Nostr could be the most middle-of-the-road platform in terms of content and you would STILL be able to find all sort of outrageous claims about it on Google and any corporate-run platforms which have a vested interested in demonizing and limiting any other platforms that stand to get in the way of their business and propaganda machines. The way to 'combat' bad ideas is to challenge them through discussion, not predetermining what is or isn't "hateful" content using AI trained on ones own biases and definitions with the hopes of shaping someone else's experiences. I'm all for providing better tools, but I don't agree that this is one of them.
Your link is a Google search that returns one result containing the three words in your query. And the result is a year old article talking about how well Nostr handles this problem.
Pfff so what, don't need those people. They are like the ones who flee blue states for red and then try and change them into the thing that made the problems they left. Better off without.
This I actually agree with 100%, but there are better ways than importing a Microsoft / OpenAI bot. Especially one so hilariously conformist. That is now polluting the Kind-1984 data that better bots are trained with...
Yeah the OpenAI model isn’t great. We’re working an update that sends all of its reports to a person to review and which will delete them if the person decides the bot made a mistake. It’d be great to have a self hosted and trained bot which did a better job. This is an experimental bot followed by a couple dozen people and posting events to a single otherwise read only relay. We don’t even suggest Nos users follow it. I think we should suggest it to users but there are people on our team who also think it’s not accurate enough yet and we need human intervention. I want there to be many bots like this which all make different judgements about content. You can choose to follow none of them, one, or several.
I think that ecosystem is inevitable and probably necessary. I also think an additional human-review step is an egrerious waste of resources. Kind-1984s ARE human review. But very glad you're looking to in-source your LLMs. @Bob_stores_nostr is working on something that can provide the sort of scale that training datasets require.
