Imagine if that's the true purpose for neurolonk 

 It would stop you from thinking censored words 🤯 

 Hillary Clinton in a white bikini.

Report that thought.

I just gave you all the heebee newbies. 

 Young Hilary…right?! 😂 

 Naw. 😁 

 Well, in that case

https://media1.tenor.com/m/4qlr_wZ0SSgAAAAC/bleach-eyes.gif 

 Stop you? 

Or like clockwork orange you and zap specific parts of your brain to associate unwanted behavior with gross and terrible feelings?  

 Exactly like that
https://media1.tenor.com/m/uQVdEH2txtAAAAAC/clockwork-orange-eyes.gif 

 @50c5c98c you’re not even making an attempt at a good faith discussion here. You’re just larping about your “freedom” to say whatever you want. 

You still have that freedom, in the real world and on Nostr, but that freedom always comes with consequences. Surely you understand that. 

If you say something offensive to the wrong person in the real world you might end up in a fight. Say something offensive on Nostr and others might use their freedom and say what they want about it. 

Get over it. 

 I deal with the consequences, what makes you think I don't?

I will use freedom of speech here, because my country has laws regarding limitations on speech.

Am I a loudmouth for freedom of speech in meat space?

Damn straight I am. 

 Yes, and I have zero problem with that. It's what free speech is for. But it runs both ways. 

You're giving out to  @rabble because they built an open source bot to explore what moderation looks like for users who want it. The bot is a "loudmouth" here on Nostr but you're asking for it to be silenced because you don't like what it's saying... 🤔 

 yeah that’s dumb
I personally don’t find the bot of any value, and many people can agree: a bunch of its reports are outright false and it’s overly sensitive 

 he needs to shut down his equipment 
inciting irritation among people on the interwebs is a crime  

 Technically, Nostr is a free protocol and as such people can build any tools they like on their services, while I don't personally like the idea of a report bot, I can certainly understand why it could be needed/understand that app devs are required to implement them. Thanks for all your hard work devs!  

 Exactly, nobody’s saying you need to follow a report bot, or that somehow my report bot should be the one and only source for reports. If you don’t want it, mute it. If you don’t like reports at all, use an app that lets you disable them entirely. 

I also see the need for folks to be able to send the report to somebody else and have them check it and publish. Sometimes people don’t want to face the backlash that can come with posting reports. Obiviously a reposting bot would need a person or person and AI checking the content. Something which was just a pass through would work, but is probably a vector for abusive behavior.  

 What makes you think that one nostr bot posting labeling notes only to it's own relay is centralized claiming of authority? The problem is that  @Vitor Pamplona has decided in his app that all report notes should be shown in the global feed and as replies even if they're not somebody you follow or care about. Every other app just uses these if they're relevant to the user. Switch apps, because this IS handled by nostr clients and you're choosing a client which throws it in your face. 

To be clear,  @Vitor Pamplona is totally within his rights as a nostr client developer to decide how he wants to display reports to his users. Amethyst is open source, he's happy for people to fork it and make versions that work differently, or better yet, provide PR's to change it's functionality. 

I think "report" is a terrible name for content labeling because it keeps people thinking that there's somehow some magical secret centralized authority which is getting those reports and taking action on them. That's not how Nostr works. I think we should change the nip to say 'content labeling' and 'flagging users' / 'flagging content' because that's what's happening in Nostr. The apps in the AppStore / Google Play will still need to have it say Report in the UI, but that's their platform monopoly requirements. Relay operators have the power to choose what content they'll host. Almost all do filtering and dropping content based on their own decisions. Nostr isn't a 'you have to listen to me protocol' nor is it a "you have to host my content" protocol. You get the ability to say what you want, but so does everybody else. If you want to make sure your content is online, run a relay. That's what we did with  @Reportinator , and we don't put it's content on anybody else's relays at all. 

And because it's all open source, you can compile your own version without any content reporting or labeling.  

 a relay is a central entity on the network thhere are many but each is a point of centralization. Placing yourself in a censorious role at the centralization was your instinct for solving an issue in decentralized space. There is no magic and it will end up killing your project. Once people understand that you are willing to stand between their tools and raw data there will be an exodus. face it now face it later. But dont mess around too hard. Some of us will take it personally.  

 I write open source software on an open source permissionless protocol. Relays are only centralized if you choose to, if you want to only use the Damus relay, then you're choosing to give  @jb55 authority over what content you can publish or see. 

If you're so concerned about this issue, i strongly recommend you setup a relay, i recommend: https://github.com/hoytech/strfry

And develop a plugin to strfry that rejects all kind 1984 events.

Here's the instructions: https://github.com/hoytech/strfry/blob/master/docs/plugins.md

And if you want to run a service that reports all of my content, you're welcome to do so. Here's the code which is open source and you're free to use and modify as you see fit. https://github.com/planetary-social/reportinator_server

See, i'm not telling you want to say or do, go for it, but all I ask is that you realize free speech only works if it is for everybody.  

 its only for everyone if you stay the hell out of it and stop trying to censor people. Doesn't matter. Unless feds fund you or a banker somewhere (my be your plan) your silly project is soon to be dead in the water. Too many other projects for you to compete with a boat anchor called censorship around your neck. I would say good luck but I dont mean it.

I wish you long life and health. But also that you dont try to bring censorship to the platform. 

 Censorship is about suppressing speech, but somehow you're saying that my speech, which you're choosing to see, is suppressing your speech? Just use an app that doesn't support kind 1984 events. Use relays that don't support kind 1984 events. Mute bots you don't like. 

You also might want to google me before you think that my projects are doomed or that I've just appeared on the scene. ;-D 

 Just Google me bro. 

 no, my speech is not supressable by the likes of you. I am saying, again, that seeking a central solution in a distributed network is a choice. you made that choice. 

I am telling you to not meddle with peoples data stream. We all know that you want your functionality to be adopted widely. then its not just on your little server anymore. what about the collabs that you have considered or discussed? what happens when snicthbot is buried 3 layers deep in the protocol and is more hidden from common view.

You have an instinct for centralization and censorship and safe spaces. Just admit it to yourself. we already know now. dont have to tell us. 

 Look, if somehow i managed to convince all the nostr devs and folks managing the nostr nip process to do this, then you could just make versions of the apps and spec which didn't do that. We're an open source permissionless decentralized protocol. 

Why is it you get to reply to me but i can't reply back to you? Do you not like the  @Reportinator events? Why not make a bot that reports all the reports. Or use a client that doesn't choose to read them. You're choosing to see this stuff you're upset with. Just don't.  

 nostr:nevent1qqs2xn6dd064shasugnykqlmmm08xkqajq8wp5jaa706wh9erfx34xspzdmhxue69uhk7enxvd5xz6tw9ec82c30qgs939ers2wfdtgjgxnu4l9n9glcg8p33khqsrp848qtufznvh5vpsgrqsqqqqqpgxq8te 

 Are you honestly still not understanding. you had two choices for how to proceed in a decentralized environment. You chose central service and censorship. Thats you. wheter you wanna admit to yourself or not. You chose central when you did not have to. you chose filter when you could have chosen client side functionality. you did that bro. Not me.

You did it publicly and we see you. You tried to be arrogant and send me to watch your 49 minute talk instead of having the conversation. I almost had to shame you into it because deep down you know how we would all react.

This is the way with censors. You have no idea how many of you I have met and fired from prjects and turfed from positions once I sniffed it. The world has changed. I am no longer theonly one that sees you lot. You guys overplayed the safety hand badly.

If I catch you in my stream I will destroy your infrastructure. So do what you do but stay outta my stream. 

 You've spent more time replying to me on here than it would have taken to watch the talk. But again, it's your choice about what media you consume. Do you want the bot to be taken offline? Do you think that content reports are inappropriate speech on Nostr? 

Do you have any idea how Nostr works?  @Reportinator is not a centralized service. It's a single nostr identity which posts content reports on what it sees on the nostr network to it's own relay. 

Where in the Nostr spec does it say, you must go and read content from Reportinator. Or you must remove content from your relay because of what's published by some random bot? Where does it say that your open source nostr client should request Reportinator events form the Reportinator relay and use them to shape what you see?

How is any of that centralization? 

The code for this is open source, running on our servers, nobody has to pay attention to it. 

https://github.com/planetary-social/cleanstr

In fact, most clients and relays completely ignore 1984 events. But why don't you make a version that labels any content you feel is woke so that you can filter that out of your feed. I think that'd be a good thing, it's not what I want to run, but I've created the tools for you to do that.  

 1 Yes I do.
2 If your infrastructure is filtering between me and raw data at any time I will smash it.
3 you are wrong
4 be better
 

 5 do better 

 Quotations from Chairman Maher https://www.city-journal.org/article/quotations-from-chairman-maher 

 Creep on it

https://music.apple.com/de/album/i-got-5-on-it-tethered-mix-from-us-feat-michael-marshall/1455274140?i=1455274310&l=en-GB 

 Woke is funny. I am enjoying the heat death of the wokieverse immensely . see how a non censor behaves? I would never dream of filtering speech for others. I would have chosen tools for the user. 

You are what you are bro. You are just making it worse. 

 You want it darker
What doesn’t know.
💌 https://image.nostr.build/ef811a28f95be741acc4f13ece3c51190b5f040703d827c99f7368ed72de0163.jpg  

 ALL

Acute Lymphoblastic Leukaemia 

Big Pharma fucking hates your guts

https://music.apple.com/de/album/all-good-feat-chaka-khan/1673761955?i=1673762116&l=en-GB 

 Missed me.


Sipping coffee on stopping time.

Hit? https://image.nostr.build/6da48d2fa87a43b91b8b15b6d192d297b08e032cb268fb1338c37dafea8badb2.jpg  

 Today good. https://image.nostr.build/a0e947b432561f3ff41419251bc4859ed7c9114abfe9eb8626e5950011bac6b6.jpg  

 This conversation reminds me of Karl Popper’s paradox of intolerance, wherein the only thing a tolerant person should not tolerate is intolerance because it leads to the end of tolerance. 

I think (maybe I’m wrong) what @Pepe_NOSTRos is arguing is that this kind of bot is not simply another instance of free speech or a project on the protocol, but is antithetical to the ethos of the protocol itself. 

That not anything can be tolerated on this open protocol, and this is pushing it. Because no one can stop you, the alternative is to point out how antithetical this truly is and make it reputational suicide to push it, ironically reporting *you* at the meta level for creating a reporting bot. 

Once people see this kind of intolerance will not be tolerated, they will cease trying to report people, for the “greater good”, for “public safety” “for the women” “to save the children” for “national security” or whatever other noble reason one can conjure. 

That doesn’t mean women being harassed on nostr isn’t a real issue to solve, only that it has to be done in a way that’s in keeping with the ethos of the protocol. 

But it’s possible I’m misunderstanding.  

 No you nailed it. Concise clean and unemotional. Thank you. 

 did your silly ass just make a claim to authority? bro we are talking about this issue. I have projects and victories too. yee freaking ha welcome to being capable. 

What do your former projects have to do with this issue? Uggh. you get more and more PMC fed smelling with every comment.

kinda gross bro ngl 

 💯 

 You opened yourself up.
You demonstrated to what lengths you will go to appease your Almighty Google and Apple.

This is who you are. A snitch who builds snitch bots under the guise of noble gallantry. It doesn't matter if it's happily running on your own instance of homemade nostr. You had the nerve to imagine it, and see it built. 

You Glowing Judas.
Enjoy your boot 👢 

 Hum... Why is the bot creating reports and not NIP-32 labels? Those are two very different things in my mind. If you want labels, use NIP-32 not NIP-56. 

 I’m not the snowflake demanding somebody else stop using Nostr how they like. You’re the one demanding I stop posting stuff on Nostr that you don’t like.  

 Who just earned the snowflakestr badge? 

 Keep posting bro we won't try stop you. You are digging the hole deeper anyway. Not how we roll. Our arguments sound no need to cower or reach for the censor button. 

 Nostr is indeed the Wild West. Even as it grows the outside will always be. 

 I'll give you my 100% objective opinion as someone who's here kinda by chance. creating a platform or protocol with 0% moderation will never attract the masses. Yes nostr will eventually get the reputation of being a heaven for nazis, white supremasists and even pedophiles, 'normies' as you call them don't want that. Just look at the popularity of tiktok where you can't even say words like 'suicide' or 'murder'... now I get that you might not care about 'normies' and it's great if they don't come but the discussions about how nostr will become profitable to the people working on it say otherwise.  

 You are absolutely correct. the issue is where the tools reside. User / client side or on infrastructure somewhere. If its on infrastructure then we are recentralizing and creating chokepoints that are very attractive to censorship / authourtarian types.

no one wants a garbage feed. I just dont trust anyone I dont know to filter it for me. 

 if it's just at the user level it's still considered a 'garbage feed'. just because a user chooses not to see posts let's say about zoophilia it doesn't mean the posts are not there, and 'normies' generally don't want to be part of a community that looks like the dark web, so nostr need to look for something else. 

 Filter on client by default 

 I think there should be different clients with different levels of moderation, ranging from zero moderation (forums on the dark web) to a lot of moderation (tiktok level of moderation). after all people download an app (client) they don't care about what's on the other clients.
 

 cool but in the end the one that gives you any level you want will win through wider appeal. 

as a note thought. If the ISP's blocked porn there would never have been a www. I remember the early days. The web you know was built on filth that few people ever saw.
 
Not my bag. I dont partake in the kinks. However they have a right to use infrastructure like anyone else. The infrastructure people got waaaay too uppity during late 90s to 2010s. They centralized everything to the server and called it convenience and safety focus.

Now we have a censorable and highly censored www. This is the basic issue that leads me to say. Put the tools on the clients. I dont trust anyone to filter at the infrastructure. They have all proven themselves unworthy of that trust so far. All have said this time is different. 

 I agree with you (except the part where everyone has the right to the infrastructure, for me not everyone should have the right to the infrastructure like pedophiles because they present a danger, same for terrorists). otherwise I understand that people have different expectations. for example you want to have access to everything and then filter it yourself and I prefer that it's filtered for me because I prefer not to be 'in contact' with certain content. having different clients is probably the solution but at the same time they should be 'impermeable' to each other to a degree. 

 on unfiltered infrastructure they cannot hide as they can now. They use it the clients can auto report without telling you if you choose such a hypothetical setting. Trading freedom and openness for fear and censorship is a non starterr for me. It is harder to do it from the client in a decentralized way at the moment but it is possible. centralization and attendant temptation / ability to censor is not something that we should be encouraging if we actually want an open internet experience.

How often do you see those things now? If you dont follow them you shouldnt see them. I dont. dunno why you would. leads me to say that user side tools can do the job and the community is not as dirty as some seem to say.

this could be as simple as an llm to prechew your feed for you that learns your preferences over time or as heavy as an extensions layer supported by privacy focused DVM's that you can use for heavy lifting if needed.

The point is that there are options that don't give back the decentralization we have fought so hard for.

 

 I come across them because I'm a curious person I click on profiles I don't know. Decentralization isn't just about being anti-censorship it's also about avoiding the 36 million ads on your feeds like on facebook/instagram, not dealing with twitter stupid algos,not getting an ad on facebook for something you just talked about on messenger. for now nostr is an echo chamber and the whole anti-censorship thing is pretty popular here probably because of the influence from the bitcoin culture. I really respect the fact that you want total control over what you see on nostr and not relying on others to choose for you. but personally I believe when you sign up for a social network you need to "vibe" with its overall culture, I wouldn't join 4chan (if it's still around) and then complain about people being racists misogynists. the good thing is nostr is a protocol where there can be an unlimited number of clients and each one can customize the experience for its specific audience. maybe there would be a rose-tinted glasses client for people like me.



 

 your use of the word impermeable gave me another idea for explaining. We wear clothes because we are not impermeable to our environment. We each choose what clothes to wear based on the experience we want to have.

The anaolgy here is therefore that I could ask my town council to put a dome over the town and that would be much more convenient for everyone. Save a lot on snow removal too.

Ok but now you are in a bubble. who has the keys. If they lock the doors what do you do? If they change the air quality "for your benefit" would you even know? If so, what can you do about it.

Seems safer for a human to just put on a jacket.

I am suggesting jacket. Censors are suggesting bubble.
 

 oh final note because it bears saying often. pedos dont deserve the use of their own teeth as far as I am concerned, but my viewpoint is mine. It is not my right to touch the data. Leave it alone. Its not ours. 

 also I dont understand why people keep saying darkweb. Its not actually a thing. Its a propaganda term that was popularized by the centralizers in early web days. It basically means that if the feds (google and the gang) dont index it then its bad.

This is an old battle but I dont think it actually matters soon. The functionality that used to have to run on web servers will start to migrate back to the client side as personal ai takes hold. The issue there will be the same but I think the cat is out of the bag,

be well 

 Exactly. 

 This is a direct contradiction of your position. People don't need a bot to shape their experiences when they can just block and move on. Just pointing that out. 

 Nobody's asking you to use this bot. Nobody's asking you to follow it. Just like nobody on Nostr has any obligation to host or view your content.  

 No one is asking for this bot but your Google gods.

Just admit that you are an agent, a fedboi. 

 No one asked the neighbor to diddle his kid but I still kicked his ass every time I saw him til he moved. He took me to court. I framed the fine.

You are diddling the community on the sneak tip. Hiding behind fear of safety. Weak. 

 Bloquer et passer à autre chose ne peuvent rendre nostr  pérenne.. ce serait un échec mais s'atteler aux DM de où l'on trouve toute sorte de proposition liée à Bitcoin est l'une des priorités d'ailleurs à chaque je suis obligée de répliquer ces derniers temps en indiquant qui gère mes Bitcoin d'autant plus qu'il est nostr.. Nous ne sommes pas tous ici pour les mêmes raisons..  

 Block what? 

 What you no like 

 cool. 

 Well said mal! 💜 

 🙏🏽 

 Hard to know when some stupid idea is going to blindside you on a random Tuesday in a coffee shop line with a stranger. People say crazy shit IRL too and we love the idea of gathering all the madness together in specific pockets of weirdness 🤷🏼 I have come to like my little corner of #nostr feels like a bit of something carved out for myself that’s just happy to be acknowledged like might not agree with what you’re saying but definitely gm 🤙🏻 

 And to be clear everyone should absolutely have whatever filters they need to have at their disposal to function, whatever the purpose of gazing into this abyss that is #nostr might be. 

 Users should not infrastructure 

 No man we’re just here to fuck shit up make the devs regret showing the dumber monkeys any and all trickery. 

 I'm not that monkey and not that Dev so they picked the wrong frog tda 

 Grammar users not need either!  

 thats not a sentence 

 you know we are gonna meet in person one day and you are gonna cower and scurry right. I will get on a panel with you at some point. Dont be a keyboard hero. You will look awful stupid when you have to stand and be polite. Stop being a dick and go write your censor bot project. I think you know the backlash you are gonna get. so enjoy. This is tip of iceberg if you persist. 

 wen grammar nazi bot? 🤖 

 were you too dim to infer a comma? 

 Beautifully said 🫂💜 

 Agree on all fronts the issue is that if it is not client side then we have just created central point for future censorship.

We have a choice where to put the functionality. We can censor or we can put tools in client space.

No one wants a polluted feed but some don't want anyone else having any part in deciding what is pollution.

Respectfully 

 A tool to curate your feed is follow tags of people let's say, posts about cooking, posts about well being, art posts. These go on the positive side, no one will be made if someone tags their content with "exercice". The problem is a bot labeling your content as "harassment", "hate speach"  because you said "retarded"  

 *no one will be mad**** 

 I curse like a drunken sailor sometimes. If someone wants a bot to prevent seeing posts where my language gets colorful. Great! I’m not owed an audience. Nor do I really care to interact with people so easily offended. I figure it works out for both parties. 

 It's not just not seeing, its your content gets tagged, with time and more bots your notes will be labbed accordingly to this bots, and it almost becomes part of the protocol, and you don't know if the labelin is fair at all, imagine your content being labeled "racist" and people might follow you or not based on that. A client might show your profile with those tags.  

 People can do this as an attack if the don't like you. Flag you out of spite.

Just gives tools to oppress.

I don't expect my message to find a place in people's minds. But I do mind my messages getting flagged for benign reasons. Smacks of boot licking, daddy govt worshipping. 

 The thing is people will follow the most "reliable" bot, but then you create a problem, it's a bot, it will make a lot of mistakes, people will complain about not being seen, getting wrong flags etc. And the the bot owner is going to make some tweeks to accommodate, so basically this person is in fact responsible for the tagging of behalf of hundred or thousands of people. And your right, it's a privacy concern also.  

 Bots need a human hand behind them. Are humans infalible? I think not. Will the bots do dumb shit? Yes, they will. Garbage code in, crap results out.

What makes this worse, is that Rabble is thinking that he's the one for the job. 

Not a single human being on the face of the earth is qualified to police another person's speech. 
Unless you are a parent to a three year old who says "fuck" a lot.

Then you have a different set of problems. 

 And now do Main Volume and his racist and misogynistic slurs. Nostr has lots of bots. I’ve read the thread  carefully. You want your idea of free speech and being against "leftist thoughts“ and other nonsense to be seen as normal? So let others have their protection from it. That’s a lot of reframing while you’re promoting a thicker skin that you obviously don’t have yourself. If you’ve talked about the topic without insults, I would have tried to believe in your noble efforts to save us all from the wrong bots. Now, I'll mute you, and happily try other methods to avoid wasting time on your dull content. 

 I got my kids to stop saying “fuck” when they were little by explaining what it means. Kind of like I’m explaining how Nostr works to folks freaking out about someone else on Nostr publishing report and label events that reference their content.  

 The issue is whether I have the tools or some infrastructure does. If infrastructure does then we have a problem 

 This. 💜 

 I also saw just this. There is literally no one calling Nostr a Nazi haven lmao 

 I’ve heard it a number of times. But im glad it’s not as widespread as i worried.  

 Yeah the OpenAI model isn’t great. We’re working an update that sends all of its reports to a person to review and which will delete them if the person decides the bot made a mistake. 

It’d be great to have a self hosted and trained bot which did a better job. 

This is an experimental bot followed by a couple dozen people and posting events to a single otherwise read only relay. 

We don’t even suggest Nos users follow it. I think we should suggest it to users but there are people on our team who also think it’s not accurate enough yet and we need human intervention. 

I want there to be many bots like this which all make different judgements about content. You can choose to follow none of them, one, or several. 

 I think that ecosystem is inevitable and probably necessary.

I also think an additional human-review step is an egrerious waste of resources. Kind-1984s ARE human review.

But very glad you're looking to in-source your LLMs.

@Bob_stores_nostr is working on something that can provide the sort of scale that training datasets require. 

 Lol Ok. good to know. hes a middle. no problem except decentralized means theres nothing to middle. You have to produce for the consumer. 

 middle, and mid