Who asked you a question? 🐶🐾🤔 

 No one did 

 Love how the trolls pipe up, so that they're easier to mute. 

 🐶🐾🤣🤫you’ll scare them off ! 

 I don't mean to sound insensitive , but wouldn't it have been wise  for Roya to have done the same (muted), rather than to have left the protocol, leaving even fewer girls and women than before?

 

 I've got a mile-long mute list, myself, but it's unnerving to know that your conversations are actually interspersed with a small army of perverts and haters.

Men don't have this problem, as often, and they find it less disconcerting. 

 
I agree that men likely do recieve less of this type of behaviour from creeps and so on, and that when they do they are less sensitive to it, but what are we to do if it is a question of biology?
A developer couldn't possibly allow for what somebody might find disconcerting, not to my knowledge at least.
The best solution they have is for everyone to choose what they do and don't see.
 

 There is one solution that is not yet economically feasible. It is practically possible to train a “guardian” ML model to perform vetoing of notes that reach the person’s eyes, and have a tunable threshold 🐶🐾🤔 

 I had no idea. Perhaps a solution is at hand. 

 Let me think about how we can make it economically feasible. We can do it now already, but at great and unsustainable cost. 🐶🐾🫡 

 Yes, women should be able to put up a "gentlemen only, please" sign and keep the riff-raff from interacting with her, at all.
Having to mute them means I had to see them and possibly their "artwork", first.

Does seem like something ML would be good at preempting, like an electronic doorman. 

 We need shared mute lists. I trust most of you here 

 💯 

 And mutes need to finally transport effectively across clients and be persistent.

Everytime I switch, they pop back up and I have to remute, and I can see their convos with other npubs and their boosts and pervy/antagonistic reactions, reposts and zaps.

I had Compromised Account regularly popping up in my Amethyst feed and notifications, for instance. 

 Absolutely! I wouldn’t mind to have one for myself tbh. I am thinking that all notes from follows should be allowed, reposts from non-followed should be scanned at low scrutiny level, replies from non-followed should be scanned at different levels depending and npub reputation. All the parameters should be configurable by the users (levels per sentiment). This will require for the user to use a single aggregator relay, but I think it’s very much doable. 🐶🐾🤔 

 Would it be a possible add-on to the wine filter or could we have both running in parallel or interacting in some way? 

 They are technically redundant, so you could aggregate your other relays into one and read from that with “guardian” or doorman 🐶🐾🤔 

 THIS 

 On it! 🐶🐾🫡 

 Am I to believe, to condense this idea down to it's most basic elements, that you are suggesting an AI that will go out and mute people for you BEFORE you have some unsavory encounter?

Could we go a step further and surmise that this could lead to the  idea of 'pre-crime'?

Somebody I follow says X and Y but not Z 
I simply cannot tolerate Z, and since people who speak of X and Y   invariably follow it up with Z, I filter them out on the presumption that they WILL offend me in the future for something not yet come to pass?

 

 Not exactly. No muting will happen, notes that user “tunes” to be not welcome, will not be delivered to the client. If user follows the other person, then they could have an option not to filter at all 🐶🐾🫡 

 I see. The possibilities of AI frighten me for the simple reason that I don't know what they are, and inversely, their limitations. 

 It is not LLM AI, it is just an ML model that rates the text content based on its themes. Just like your regular spam filter but a bit smarter 🐶🐾🫡 

 These abbreviations are jargon to me, must research this. 

 LLM is large language model, ai is artificial intelligence, ml is machine learning 🐶🐾🫡 

 Ah, I've progressed from a few capitalised enigmatic letters to many lowercase enigmatic letters, I'm so close!

This is all so esoteric, how exciting! 

 This will happen sometimes, for a certainty.

ML, like statistics, is all about the most efficient way to predict Y knowing X1, X2, X3 etc.

If you're training a filter to block people whose musical tastes you don't like, and that is highly correlated with being black, the filter will totally use "black" as a shortcut to improve its accuracy. There are countermeasures, but the model can evolve new proxy variables for race much faster than its trainer can construct new reward schedules to penalize those.

Cost of doing business, I'm afraid. Err on the side of tolerance, as much as your individual patience can stand. 

 Can zaps be used like hash cash’s intended use, but on the protocol level? 

 Not sure what you mean, please elaborate. 🐶🐾🤔 

 HC - Cut down on email spam by proving some amount of work was done to send the message to the receiver.

Zap Stamp - Like a black list/white list on an email filter, but the threshold to post for any replying/commenting npub is “x amount of sats”.

For someone like Roya, all npubs would be prevented from replying without putting up the “zap stamp” fee (the amount of sats Roya receives before a reply/comment can be published to her original note) UNTIL an npub is added to an approved posting list that waives the fee (this list would remain small because it is one she manages as her own web of trust).

————

This may be too complex right now with zaps being a tad buggy in the sense that clients are doing zaps/wallets in different ways. 

 Not gonna work, pay to interact only works with celebs and their fanbase 🐶🐾🫡 

 Isn’t Nostr new, uncharted territory in cyberspace though? 

 General concepts do not change, neither does human psychology 🐶🐾🫡 

 I agree with the statement human psychology doesn’t change.

But tools do change. 

 You mean that you'd have to zap-to-interact? 

 Yes. 

 Keeps bots down, but not creeps. 

 Right? That might actually increase creep ratio 🙃 

 😂 Yeah, they'd happily pay to post. 

 “Excuse me m’am, how much will it be for you to see the picture of my nuts?” 🐶🐾🤣🤣🤣🫂 

 😂 Don't give them any ideas. 

 We could create bot accounts as targets! Like Ashley-Madison. Waste the creepers time, upsetting a bot.

Plenty of training material about, especially in fediverse if we need troll-bait.

How to monetarise? 

 Omg!!!! 🤣😂 

 I disagree.  Right now it’s effortless to spin up npubs so mute list is as effective as blocking bots on twitter.

Real humans wanting to be creeps to a user like Roya online using Nostr would have to expend more time and money to continue their antics. 

 You would have to set the price high enough to be onerous, and then the normies will stay away. 

 The creeps would be paying to share their hate with the world, wouldn’t prevent the her from adding another npub to the mute list either.

But if Roya’s departure was more about creeps stalking her IRL then yes, filtering the haters posting would not solve that. 

 I don't think it was IRL, but that risk always looms, when they are too.... eager. 

 I want something preemptive. 
I already muted anyone I saw harrassing her, to keep myself from being attacked next.

That's why there are some "Christian" guys on my mute list. 

 Yes, mute well.

Offense has the advantage here, need better defense. 

 I'd like something like this to block adult inages and other degenerate content. I wabr to be able to check nostr without worrying about family and kids seeing something obscene on my phone  

 Fair request, but images are harder. I’d suggest to disable automated loading of media in this case for now 🐶🐾🫡 

 Yep, it's still early but I can totally imagine personal AI models helping to curate you social media feeds 

 imagine going to a party where everyone is kind and and friendly, except that one guy who is annoying, creeps on you and makes you feel uncomfortable. heck, he may even hate you and want to plot your death and the death of anyone who is remotely like you. 

now, imagine going to a party but every person is that guy. This person not only internally thinks you're a shitstain but openly vocalizes their opinions as facts. And it's a whole room of these people, all cursing you in chorus for simply being who you are. Oh, but there's one person who is kind and nice. 

Doesn't seem worth it to stay, does it.  

 I think this allegory is a smidgen hyperbolic, and entirely rhetorical but I'll assume it's being asked in good faith:

No of course I wouldn't tolerate that environment. 

 yeah definitely hyperbolic. I'm a bit riled up this morning so it became more hyperbolic as I wrote 😅 

 You clearly care deeply about this.  

 Women never know who's going to be next. 

 The main alternative is walled gardens, but it's sort of sad.
Women hiding from public spaces because men are allowed to run wild.

Internet cloisters. 

 Everyone is afforded the right to 'run wild' on Nostr, and we all have a mute button.

Perhaps your phrasing is a touch defamatory, look around, many men are caring and sensitive to the discomfort of others. 

 Is there a way to make a private account?

 That way you can be more selective of who follows you? 

Private accounts could also have remove follower option. #asknostr  

 I've thought about this,  yet being respected and respecting  online others is a trait that we're missing a bit of, when using all social medias. I'm quite a direct person offline, I've put others respect before my own. Quite difficult to do it as part of a job. However, If you want a private meeting or message, contacting the person account privately and from public eyes is an option. If the account it's disrespectful to you, then report it, mute the account, step away from interacting.

Basically be mindful  of what you post on social medias. 

Says... Me🙄🤣 

 That's fair 💯🤙🏽🍀 

 Have you heard of #wormhole, it has end to end encrypt. That may be of interest to you.  

 I haven't. Thx for the heads up. 🤙🏽💯 

 Yes, just need to encrypt the notes. 

 Nobody has built it, yet, tho. 

 I agree in principle. I daresay she muted early & often.  She was both strong, as an independent sovereign individual, and vulnerable, as a young attractive woman. I imagine she grew weary of the constant vigilance. I think, I hope, she knows she has family here who care, and misses her very much. #PleaseComeBackRoya 

 Absolutley. What a shame for her to leave, she is well liked here by many. 

 women aren't trannies. what's your point and why is it important to note this?  

 It’s a troll, just ignore it! 🐶🐾🫡 

 dose the trolls! 🫠 

 How is telling the truth trolling you fucking dumbass? 

 Trannies arent women you fucking retard faggot 

 Negative. 

 I... Don't understand this.  

 If a woman is reduced to protesting gross, aggressive, or obsessive misbehavior, we've already missed the mark.
And there is too much pressure on women here to "be nice, don't mute, stay friendly". So, women will be upset and just keep engaging because they don't want to be That Mean Girl.

Men misbehaving should result in those men feeling lonely and upset on Nostr, not the women. Too much onus on the women. 

 OK. I get that. But... I still don't understand why it's other guys' fault? Sure, creepy, gross d-bags are the ones at fault for their behavior. Why is that the responsibility of any other adult to do anything about that? You're an adult. They are adults. Be an adult?  

 You are free to think that, yes. 

 Yes, I am. I don't really get why anyone who has been online for a while can conclude differently. 

Harassment online is terrible, but... I can't ever take it to heart or too seriously. That's likely because I'm a man, but, I don't see why it has to effect people so much. Gross stuff should be squashed and then forgotten. Why is it more complicated than that?  

 You are asking me why women can't just be more like men. 

 To be fair, not all of us are even aware that women are being treated this way. I hear rumblings of it, but I rarely see it in my feed.

If it was, my lady, I would defend your honour to the utmost. 

 https://media1.giphy.com/media/WYUkqkjfF25TW/giphy.gif 

 🫂 

 But don’t you know, anyone who backs them amidst persistent, unhinged, belligerent attacks is a BETACUCKSIMP 😩 

 They be like, Bros before hoes.
Yeah, I know. Tiresome. 

 I did miss it I think.  i know what they could be capable of, that's why clients need to wake up.. paid relays, access controlled relays, maybe even captcha relays, anythings better than dis 

 comment spam, we haven't seen this yet, almost but not quite, or maybe you have seen it?.  it will be the death of free relays...  nobody wants to be comment spammed.  it happened on NYE.  i was not happy 

 That screenshot was AI comment spam from that very thread. The bots started talking to each other, like they do on Twitter. 

 right.. the problem is bots like free services..  they don't provide value, so they don't have any value to spend.  clients like primal are probably only cool if you run it yourself.  which im thinking about doing. 

 Yeah, on Nostrudel I only read from paid or private relays and the wine filter.
Keeps most of the crap, creeps, and crazies out. 

 This is the way  

 What is a wine filter? 

 https://docs.nostr.wine/filter/readme 

 Thanks. This looks like something I can use. 

 i'm so tempted to say something about non fungible kinds of value like attention also, if the goal is manipulative and not merely clogging a channel 

 I don't see it on #Nostrudel, but I do see it on #Coracle and #Primal because of the preset relays. 

 Ah I don't see this on amethyst  

 Probably blocked and reported by your WoT. 

 She got tired of being harrassed.
Don't blame her. 

 Was it a bot reply problem or troll problem? Both?

Maybe she can come back with a new secret account :) 

 Trolls.
Most women on here are either anon or aloof, and the trolls are the main reason.

Eventually, private feeds will appear and then we'll slowly disappear into walled gardens. 

 Kind of like real life. LOL
But what does that say about the state of women if their best defense is to avoid the source of the problem? What does that say about the source of the problem? 

 Something to think about for sure.  

 Nostr was created with the important goal of ensuring that everyone can write. The next step is to ensure that everyone can control what they read (through persistent muting, lists/algos, and intelligent filtering) or have some privacy (through encryption).

It is coming. The devs just needed us to ask nicely, so that they are alerted to the issue and give it more priority. 

 Its not a exclusivity a nostr problem. 
This is one of the reasons people, not only women choose to be nyms on the internet. Its safer and less bullshit to deal with. Downside is nym’s inability to share selfies. I do recommend everyone to try to live a little as a nym, its a peaceful existence. 

 Most women actually aren't nyms (which isn't just about not posting pictures), as that's emotionally taxing.
They simply avoid open spaces, stay on something with read-blocking or private accounts, or stick to platforms men generally avoid, like Pinterest.

Nostr actually has the opportunity to create an open space that is overtly female-friendly because we have a stronger data construct. 

 Yes, I agree they mostly aren’t nyms. If you get to 10k followers you have a lot of new frens and some morons who hate you for no reason. If you share more about yourself like your photos you will have wider reach, your notes will thrive but also you will attract more trolls. I see no solution for that apart from a client with ONLY FRIENDS REPLIES. You cannot have free speech client and no idiots in replies. Its either all people or selected few. But then again, if there is enough people who want something closer to ig/tiktok/fb experience where a client would gurd you (and also disappear some replies you would like to see) then someone will build it. Maybe some AI dvm algo that disappears only replies you dont like and learn from your mutes? 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 Yes, it's all buildable, but someone has to step up and ask for it to be built, so that the devs know that there is some demand for it.

I am stepping up. 
Want. 
Please build. 

 There is only few thousands of us here that pay lets be honest. There need to be enough people who would pay bounty for such a client. There is only few devs and they do 99 things at the same time for some reason 😂 

But yeah you could build anything here. 

 Multiple devs are now on it.

People will pay for clients when there is content they want to see and people want to see human females. Even women like to see women.

You will also get more men on here, if they can safely suggest the protocol to the women they know because they can then move their entire social circle. 

 Do you know what kind of harrassment she was recieving? 

I know there was drama before about a picture in which her chest appeared to be enhanced digitally, but there were many people came to her side as there were critics.

 

 I thought the photo angle was poorly chosen, but that wasn't a reason to hound her. Everyone was free to unfollow or mute.

I was trying to convince her to add some more guys to her own mute list, but then she disappeared. 

 What a pity.  

 Certainly not grounds to hound her, a light roasting perhaps and move on. 

 Fair, cyber bullying and harassment is a huge issue in our time of day. 

 And you're not even a real dog 🐕🤔 

 Said the “unreal human” 🐶🐾🤣🤣🤣 

 In my avatar, only 👓 and 🧢 are real 😉 

 Keep on trolling, Ivan! We need all kinds to make this work! 🐶🐾🤣🫂 

 This is sad 😢 

 I like her better than you. 

 You bet. The women's mafia. 

 There aren't enough visible women on here, who aren't sex workers.

Even the ones I don't like make Nostr more attractive for other women, simply by existing and posting. 

 I'm in support of gender equality. And if genders are equal, it makes absolutely no difference to me what women are attracted to. 

 Equal does not mean the same. 

 Technically it does, 'equivalent' was always a more suitable word in my view. 

 2 + 2 = 3 + 1 
But the sides are not the same.
The sums are the same, but the numerals are different.

It is possible to be both equal and different. 

 Of course, in mathematics it's called 'equivalency'. 
No mathematician would say those two expressions are equal, but rather 'equivalent'.

I'm being rather pedantic aren't I?  

 Yes, you are. 😏 

 https://i.nostr.build/kZEaj.jpg 

 There's no denying that men are better at everything. But that doesn't mean we should give women advantages just because they are inferior to men. No, women should be treated the same as men. Especially in the new decentralized and censorship-resistant social networks. 

 Nothing says "I have accomplished little in my life", like putting down half of humanity and trying to crown yourself with the accomplishments of others.

This is Nostr, not 4chan. 

 These are just facts. Even in the development of 4chan the contribution of women is insignificant, let alone civilization. But when we come to equality it won't matter anymore because it doesn't matter if you're a man, a woman, or anything else. 

 There would be no civilization, if there were no humans. 

 The artificial womb is already a reality. When in the future there will be a war of the genders, men will bet on cybernetics and will create ready-made soldiers directly from artificial wombs, and women will have nothing to do but to turn into mutant hormaphrodites with a bunch of muscles. 

 Okay, you do you. Whatever. 

 If you seriously think that’s happening you need help 

 Those women who refuse to raise the white flag will need help. Mutants don't stand a chance against cyborgs, even given the corruption among the men, the lack of resources, and the disruption in the production of new soldiers.

Women would be better off surrendering right now, refusing special treatment in social media based on gender criteria. 

 You sound like a sniveling little faggot. Real men will always prefer real women. 

 I'm not feminist or whatever but this is such a lack lustre take.

Whoever my future wife is, will mean more to me than an artificial womb.

 

 Now you've made me imagine giant She-Hulks punching the shit out of baby-men with balance issues 🤣 

"YOU NEED MOMMIES MILK, DON'CHA LITTLE TYKE" 

 The men's skinny bodies will be strengthened by an exoskeleton. This will allow to fight off women for a while, besides, melee combat is more of an exception, because men can easily control the sky thanks to neuro-implants and drones. Women, of course, can teach birds to carry explosives, so we must destroy all birds. Now solar panels and wind turbines are helping us with this task. 

 I'm sorry, this shits funny. I must be retarded. 

 Same. 
Now I imagine the baby-men calling for backup and a swarm of drones blacken the skies. The battlefield filled with the buz of their motors. Suddenly the She-Hulk women whistle, ringing through the hum, and a swarm of forest creatures erupt from everywhere in response.
Squirrels throwing nuts into the turbines, deer going head to head with the Spot bots, and the Emus committed to guerilla warfare with their flank.


I went too far with that 🤣  

 April 1st 🤭 

 Are you high? 

 Bro wha? https://image.nostr.build/7a87059b2eabfd1a79cc6f1bbffc7832d0f703086e7a86d3a382e36cc5ee8402.jpg  

 https://media.tenor.com/UU4WrYE47UkAAAAC/spongebob-squarepants-patrick-star.gif 

 nostr:nevent1qqszzlgtu4ru96nqryh0xwuwlrkujtt3z2r4hhyxnya7jptw8fswpkspz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzvupzpjkqusertqrd5z20q7r6tvzw9xksfjc683l2tnmpahquxwrngzptqvzqqqqqqyee3f0t 

 Typical. Selfish. You think like a moron. 

  https://image.nostr.build/240372cc85e2dcb8a671dc8c376a27bd7537ca266076d3979f2901fc0fd01c04.jpg  

 LOL the contribution of women is insignificant in the development of civilization? 

wow, do you not know how humans are made? 

 Dude was talking about “artificial wombs and cybernetic warfare” which is an easy mute. 

 Artificial wombs exist and their research and development has not stopped. In theory they can be used right now, but not for uterus replacement. https://image.nostr.build/0678e0925c1097306ca1aa6aefea7df83cda3ff9c64c1071ccef32b05e37f20a.jpg 

 what is YOUR contribution to civilization? You're out here looking like you're pushing 40 with a Snapchat filter, so I'm gonna go with zero. 

 It is incredible to me how misguided people can become. You've obviously got a lot of growing up to do and I pray that you do that sooner than later.

Humanity will be better off when/if you better yourself, grow your mindset and challenge your current beliefs with tgose you might not be considering at the moment. 

Trust me when I say that you'll grow exponentially if you ask yourself "How might I be wrong about this?" 

 My April Fool's Day is over. I'll answer next year. 

 What are you talking about? Link please  

 Can't. They deleted the profile Pic when the acct was deleted 

 this is exactly the kind of stuff that needs to end 

 Read the name as douch fucker 

 No, it was constant.

She sometimes spent more time responding to trolls and haters than to frens, and I guess she finally decided risk/reward was too out of balance and gave up. 

 when you spend more time blocking on nostr than anything else, it really makes you go, wtf am I even doing here? fuck y'all. bye.  

 💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯 

 Nobody gives a damn who you block.  You can simply remove the reading function from the client and no one will know about it, just as no one will give a fuck. This is both a plus and a minus. The advantage is that it is resistant to censorship, the disadvantage is that commercial brands will not tolerate this and simply will not use Nostr.
 

 Is it April 2nd yet? 

 If you are spending more time blocking on nostr than with friends, the individual must have some real social problems.  It sounds like it isn't the environment but the individuals lack to deal with the environment. 

 Lesson of the day, don't respond to trolls.  They will consistently come after you for attention. 

 Yes, mute-max.

And trolls will see other men trolling and get it line. Troll train. 

 It was frequent and she seemed to swat off the haters and trolls like a pro. I can see where the effort wouldn’t seem worth the reward after a while. I personally loved Roya’s presence on Nostr and will miss it. 

 Yes, and one of the biggest accounts. 

 Maybe she'll eventually calm down and return with a different npub, but then she'll have to deal with the creepos who follow her around, harrassing her for having a new npub.

Women can never win. 

 That’s sad. It just takes one apple to ruin the entire batch. 

 Yeah.

I also don't know why they think women will "improve", if you treat them badly.
The sort of men who think you just need to scream louder or smack her harder, if she 

will. 
not. 
listen. 

 They don't want women to "improve". They want them to submit. Nothing angers people more than a woman who DOESN'T back down and give up.  

 Yeah, I know. Unfortunately. 

 That's not what Joan of Arc said 

 Nor Grace O Malley 

 that sucks, i guess twitter won 

 No, we should have just paid better attention to her complaints and offered her better services. Let's correct for that. Maybe she'll come back.

Nostr is one down, but not yet defeated. 

 twitter got snowden too 

 Or maybe we should just start photoshopping our dicks 🤔 Just as an option. 

 Okay, your three strikes are out. 

 It was yesterday, unfortunately, and we currently have no npub recovery button.
Although, I suppose we could make one. 

 Oh, yep. A few hours later and the note now tells me it's been 2 days. 1 day old and I figured it was possibly April Fools.
A cursory glance at her post history tells me nothing 😅
Do we know what happened exactly? 

 Yes, and I can see some of it in cache, but she deleted it and I respect that. 

 It's an unpopular opinion for good reason. 

 No loss either way 

 Why do you follow me? Go away. 

 Alright cya 🙂 

 It's the first time anyone has tried to make a platform aimed at allowing sex workers maximum access to strange men and other women maximum limitation to strange men.

That's not impossible, but complicated. 

 It seems like a web of trust approach could be useful. For instance, you decide to trust fellow users X to identify who's a creep, and hence automatically adopt their creep block list. Maybe something like this already exists? 

 Yes, but it doesn't let us select whose opinion to trust. That's a next-step, I suppose. 

 IMO it's a necessary step, because each group is uniquely positioned to identify content that is unwanted to that group.  

 Exactly. 💯 

 Of course. I deeply value the women in my life. We've evolved together and I think the good of being together certainly extends to the digital world. Unfortunately, there are a lot of weak men in the world today, and they come to places like this as an outlet.

I don't know anything about this particular issue, but I've noticed it in plenty of other situations. 

 Yes. Broken men like to break women. Sad. 

 Yep it is. And looking at my mute list, it’s only men as far as I can tell. 

 Women tend to avoid people they don't like. 

 Might have to pair with a relay and client. A relay which accepts notes only from one client and client only let's you post if you have a positive Sat balance. Or something like that.  

 Trolls are relentless. If it was one or a few muting can work. Imagine once a week on your favourite post you get just hate tossed at you. People can hold out for months, but it becomes a task not a pleasure to use social media. 

 This. I've had days where I've spent hours just blocking blocking blocking, adjusting relays, reporting, purchasing filters... and they still get through. 

 I think the problem here might be poorly-constructed feed design. All of the notes are loaded and then the mutes are removed.

So, if you have a slow connection or an old phone, you see the mutes for a few seconds or even minutes and it's like OMG. 
And then they slowly disappear again. 

 A possible feature would be for mutes to be included in your filters when you request notes from a relay.

Relay requests more or less say "show me notes from these people."

If we could also say "don't show me notes from these people" at the same time, and relays respected that, that would be a big step forward. 

 Or you switch to a different client and your new settings don't work and you see that your replies and notifications have dickpics, rape threats, crazy rants about how you should be burnt at the stake, beheading cartoons, pictures of drug-addled women being force-fed excrement or strangled while being gang-raped, or yay deepfake porn.

How often do you come back to that scene? 

 Mute lists need to be persistent and updated. I know that I pushed a new version and I can see it in my outbox relay and other relays, but the clients aren't pulling it. 

 Goodness gracious. You recieved all that? 

 Welcome to reality, sir. 

 Sad and deeply concerning 😔 

 I think it's a personality difference fundamentally. Since the OP was about women specifically being chased off, I'll go ahead and give a hot take that's guaranteed to make me some enemies 😅

Feminine antisocial behavior (gossip, insults, reputation savaging, cliques, social shaming, ostracizing, etc) scales extremely well on social media. Masculine temperaments are less effected by these types of attacks. There's a biological reason for that. 

Men are often valued for what they can produce materially. If a man has talent and skills, he can provide value and always find a market to support himself, even if he's an asshole and most people don't like him. Therefore men care less about what other people think of them, and more about their own ability to produce, provide and protect. 

Women are often valued for their nurturing and caring ability. Both men and women's skills are equally valuable and essential. But women are dependent on a social support network for their physical well-being, while they're busy using their nurturing abilities to provide the long-term survival of the species. Less obviously so in the modern economy, but that's still the biological reality. That makes social rejection much more threatening to women, because it's historically been a matter of life and death. 

My working hypothesis is that bringing women into public institutions and politics over the past century is the underlying pressure behind the increasing trend toward censorship, safety culture, and other aspects of feminine temperament that have become pervasive. 

Because of that, I don't expect women to ever gravitate toward fully open and unrestricted social platforms. I would expect that the more women move to a platform, the more there will be increasing calls for censorship, self-censorship, and ways to filter and restrict speech. 

*to be clear, temperament overlaps significantly between men and women, and what generalizes to women also applies to men with a more feminine temperament, and vice versa  

 I take things in the spirit they are given, you don't seem like a malicious person. I don't necessarily disagree with your hypothesis either.

The effect on politics you mentioned, I would have to think about. 

 I appreciate that, and I certainly don't mean it in a malicious way. It's not a value judgement, just a theory based on observation in an attempt to understand the world better. 

 That's respectable. 

 The biological reality is that men give women unwanted attention for reasons that have nothing to do with her opinions. 

 Oh. My dude. Yes. I hadn't even thought of taking that tact, and yet... 

Your summary is pretty poignant. It highlights my gut feelings of disgust at the insistence of any sort of "safety" in the system. The only safety I want is keeping my nsec private. And that's on me. 

If you want free speech that is unfettered by state constraints, you WILL be exposed to tons you find gross, extreme, disgusting, etc. You cannot have things both ways. You can build your walked gardens, but that is just highlighting your own inability to overcome what others are foisting on you. Not being boldly yourself in the face of things you can't stand is a personal foible. I won't support that, especially since I know many people really are much stronger than they give themselves credit for.  

 I feel the same way. Free speech is meaningless if it has exceptions. Nobody objects to speech they agree with, appreciate, or are indifferent to. Free speech only matters in relation to speech you personally disagree with, don't like, find offensive, or feel threatened by. 

The thing about speech, and what makes free speech not only ideal but essential, is that it's... just speech. Not matter what the speech is, the words don't actually do anything. They're just words. If you don't react to the words, it's as if they never happened. Life goes on. 

And it's perfectly fine to disregard speech. You don't have to read a book you don't want to read. You don't have to have a conversation with someone you don't want to talk to. You can literally ignore every word they say, or just turn around and walk away. They can scream at you, and nothing has actually happened. You can just keep walking. 

That's how I personally feel. I find the concept of "hate speech" unrelatable. 

And all that applies ten times more online, where the person is somewhere else on the globe and not even close enough for any possibility of actual harm occuring. You can literally close your eyes or power off the screen and the words are gone. 

If you want to take steps to filter the speech you see and interact with personally, that's fine. That's your privilege. But as soon as you start discussing how the group can do something to limit how many people are exposed to certain speech or how to punish someone for some kind of speech, I'm not on board with that. 

 It does seem like there was more trolls in the past two weeks. But not like you described. What you described is much worst 

 Ah now that we’re talking about it. Just saw one under one of SatsMcd's memes. Muted the troll 🤷🏾‍♂️ 

 The trolls are getting worse and crazier and they're increasingly using algos.

Can feel like playing whack-a-mole. 

 Seems like they’re looking for specific keywords to interact with 

 Last year, whenever someone spoke of freedom of speech or muting, they would show up. Now it seems like whenever it’s related to women somehow they show up 🤷🏾‍♂️ 

 That might be. Maybe women who complain about harrassment get attacked by troll bots. 

 Those are the new bots, yes. Or they attack anyone who replies to a particular npub or post. 

 The search feature on the clients they use seems to be very advanced. That and the custom feeds they’re able to generate. I wonder what apps they use 

 That's just the height of entitled douchebaggerry.  

 Yes. Nothing much we can do besides muting them as they come🤷🏾‍♂️

https://media1.tenor.com/m/zlGIDr_LfjgAAAAd/whack-a-mole-cute.gif 

 It only works against someone unmotivated. 

 Women are getting the men who are... 
more excited. 

 There are multiple developers working on solving for this problem, but they can't fly. Might take a few more months. 

 Yeah I guess it comes down to how the sexes differ in how they handle these things.

Guys definitely get harassment as well but from what you and others have said it doesn't seem like the offenders are as tenacious about it with men. My guess is there's a sexual tension aspect to it that inclines these guys to be more aggressive with women.

Guys might respond at first but quickly block/ignore because the risk vs. Return is so low and the offensers don't persue it because they're not feeding off their internal sexual desire in this case. 

Women seem to get the rougher deal because the sexual element seems to intensify proceedings significantly.

I also wonder if there's a bit of a hazing element to it? Men (especially younger guys) tend to bully and harass each other to establish dominance/pecking order and I wonder if this behaviour is bleeding into their interactions with women here as well. 

Just a thought. At least for the genuine (although mean) actors.

My big worry is that women might lean too far into the victim response. That response has been overused by bad actors so much that it causes those of us who don't do this sort of thing to tune out totally, even when it's genuine. That being said, I understand totally why women don't want to be exposed to this behaviour and why there might be a desire for a remedy for it. 

I hope it can be resolved somehow. If I see it I'll definitely do my part and call it out. Problem is that I rarely see it. 

 I think some men are aroused by harrassing women and that's why they keep doing it so relentlessly, or why they harrass and then flash. 

 That's a good point I hadn't thought of.  

 You probably aren't exposed to antagonistic perverts. I want to be you, when I grow up. 😂 

 No I'm definitely not. 

You can certainly try! I would love to be me when I grow up too! 

 Ah, sucks that she left. (Would be nice to have more non-sex worker women on Nostr, there of course are some but more would be nice. Because, well I like normal people 😂)

On the flip side people ought to block stuff/people they don't like. I'm not a fan of when people cop out. 

 Sex-workers are more used to having assholes treat them like crap, but no woman should have to put up with that.

We can do better than that. 

 Excellent point.  

 what if the woman was a child rapist and drank fetus blood every day for sustenance, would she be super welcomed just because shes a woman? 

 🥺 

 If we don’t look out for each other, who will? ❤️ 

 The tools will get better, but it's unrealistic to expect that the problem can be solved.  The reason centralized social media sucks is because they are trying to meet unrealistic expectations with technology.  Europe is going so far as to force people to install AIs on their own computers to censor what they post.  I'm not shaming any one.  I'm trying to keep expectations realistic. 

 It's public data. You can view it on listr.lol or Nostrudel.

https://nostrudel.ninja/#/lists/10000:dd664d5e4016433a8cd69f005ae1480804351789b59de5af06276de65633d319 

 You are the best. 

 We need the ability to subscribe to another person’s mute list.  

 When I was in my early teens, women dominated software and men dominated hardware.  I was too young to lug around 50lb disk drives and other hardware stuff, so I got started in software with the ladies. I took a typing class - also still mostly ladies.  It proved invaluable.  

Like weaving and sewing (and unlike physically moving heavy objects), these skills move back and forth in popularity with the sexes.  In the 18th century, tailoring and dressmaking (as opposed to fitting) was typically a male profession.  Weaving was a male profession - unless industrialization revolutionized the trade. 

 Men doing hardware and ladies doing software.

https://image.nostr.build/85299ef59cec2801d09b8056ff7e8bad42a5613b7e3c61693be9831e36677048.jpg



https://image.nostr.build/db271f6a646a34950a3c48990a4a331fffb8f136f39118231043afa720179310.jpg 

 Most of the responses from us men are making light of women wanting to be taken seriously.
We have mothers, daughters, wives, and sisters.
And we’ve been conditioned to think and feel this way.