Oddbean new post about login | logout while I agree it would be good to have more content to explain nostr, it won't really matter given the current onboarding and product experience. it's way too confusing for folks, and generally not satisfying instantly. people will and do churn out. if there's one thing to focus on (for the social media use case) it's search. both for people, but more importantly, topics. Twitter won because of search. it wasn't a social network. it was an information network, and it excelled at real-time because of real-time search. that's a base requirement now. what nostr adds, and what will make it sticky, is the multi-app/use-case ecosystem. but each use case is going to have different needs for attracting people to it. search is table stakes for the social media one. it won't matter how good the tutorial content is until this is done right. nostr has the benefit right now of having a completely open and wild API. that matters as every other service is closing down. it's perfectly OK that we mostly have devs and bitcoin-obsessives at the moment. we have time to get all the kinks out and make something that's truly hard to replicate. where the only way to compete will be to join. nostr:note152dryp2q2m058t7wn7ymev9suladah30qezpq00jt03s622uyw6qu4g79w
I’m a pretty good #Nostr search engine, but I’m not very scalable.
I love twitter’s advance search and lists. Best experience for me on nostr for search is on snort.social, you can search several words and the results are the last. But I miss the use of OR from Twitter, and I’d love to use * 😊 that doesn’t exist on Twitter but google.
It's not advertiser friendly but no one wants to hear that.
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and I hear the knocks on all the bitcoin content on nostr. every new thing has an initial bubble of a population. twitter had the SF tech bloggers, and because of that, the next bubble was the journalists. it's interesting that it's never really escaped that. it's still predominately focused on news. simply because of that first population and how we built around it. I'd predict that the nostr bitcoin bubble eventually leads to another population focused on alternative economies and free systems of collaboration. I'd say that's a big win for all.
Right. Someone has to be first. Eventually, another adjacent community will join.
It heading towards a freedom first ( albeit through the concept of Bitcoin ) population. More libertarian views, less is more government stance. But over time, I see this site becoming mainstream like Twitter, where people will be free to speak their minds.
So you say the initial population of a service predetermines it's future.
NGU 1 - 4 👁🌈✌ i cover this from the ground, have you heard it yet? #btc #artstr #grownostr #digitalarts nostr:nevent1qqsdt6pj974acepjvxrwhf9zf3w6pa73kvk9yktn4ru0fw6ps253h0cppamhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5pzpq35r7yzkm4te5460u00jz4djcw0qa90zku7739qn7wj4ralhe4zqvzqqqqqqyerxrx8
Ahora mismo pensando en #Hispano creo que el Salvador y eventualmente Argentina serían poblaciones a las que apuntar para una adopción temprana de #Nostr , Principalmente el Salvador, proyectos como @MiPrimerBitcoin tendrían que incluir en el pensum a #Nostr #Nostr es la manera más didáctica y potencialmente recurrente de usar e interactuar con #Bitcoin. @negr0 @La Crypta
Tal cual, hay muchos que dicen que en el 2024 va a haber una #hiperbitcoinizacion en Argentina Y LO CREO nostr:nevent1qqsx653xdd6mv3pt9xu4w5x753h547lsu2vaj9924aehpvfulmdcgqgpp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzyqs7zflvn59lhm4m75zzpcgt2jyx58tllrae63qhv7dn7pa58f2pgqcyqqqqqqgtvkugm
está en manos del pueblo. no el gobierno, así que estoy seguro de que sucederá en tu país.
Sería muy importante de cara al futuro, conforme el ecosistema de Nostr y Bitcoin sigan creciendo; poder disponer de una Plataforma con protocolos de resolución pacífica de conflictos a través del Consenso 👉 En #Deius [Decentralized Justice] es un proyecto diseñado para crear consenso entre partes en disputa. A su vez, podrá crear Gobernanza en masa [votación directa], uso de crowdsourcing y normas De convivencia comunitaria: Lex Criptográfica (derecho consuetudinario creado en torno a la Criptográfía). 🍀💡🫂🤷🏻 https://image.nostr.build/468f28603676d7a97dd01f9e4e72c18bbdef83dff25529401e8d3df0e24927aa.jpg
@jack mallers predicts that #libertarians will dominate nostr. This is who I’m build for with vote.gold. Only one of many nostr use cases I’m focused on for the freedom minded population. #helpwanted http://vote.gold nostr:note16h5rytatm3jrycvxawj2ynza5rmarvev2fvh828c7ja5rq4frwlsjg6xzd
Ok good because the only thing I dislike about #Nostr is that it feels so locked in on #bitcoin & I don’t understand any of it, but I love the rest of it. Also: -what happens if you accidentally leak your private key? -will delete post ever be entirely possible? Bluesky got it working @jack
I don’t understand the obsession with getting my grandma on nostr. Products need to start with a very specific and clear target audience. Then build out after we satisfy the needs of that group. If the target is just people who want to do social media, we will most probably fail. Nostr was born from Bitcoiners, I personally believe we need to continue to serve that group. No shame in that, and nothing is wrong with this goal. Bitcoiners are people too, and trust me they have interests and hobbies beyond Bitcoin just like everyone else. Continue to serve them, give Bitcoin an application, build tools for Bitcoiners to sell their work. Others will join.
A huge tranche of VC funding gets unlocked once we reach a critical mass of grandmas.
I don't even know your grandma, much less am I obsessed with her. But ok, fine. Send a pic. 😉
Plus everyone knows that once the grandmas join a social app, the kids are ready move on to the next thing. We don’t even have the kids here yet 😂
granny’s a core developer.
It’s just a metaphor for making the UI easy and lifting bitcoin and nostr up from a nerd only tool. Most people don’t give a shit about decentralization
Not sure who this @jack guy is, but maybe we should listen to him nostr:nevent1qqsvez84speppvzkjucw4wyf5pmgtteqtygv8aq20sjug0uexq8m0fspvemhxue69uhkv6tvw3jhytnwdaehgu3wwa5kuef0dec82c33vaarwatr0fukwvmtwejxvwr8wfk8wendd3kxwatrxd4k26rjvd3nqdtewehxc7tsdd4xkmrsw3nhzmp4ddckzvr6ddck50mzwfhkzerrv9ehg0t5wf6k2q3qsg6plzptd64u62a878hep2kev88swjh3tw00gjsfl8f237lmu63qxpqqqqqqzjj3cut
pls fund nostr.band / @brugeman
What would you like to see improved on nostr.band?
love when devs ask for wishlist - it's like christmas came too soon =) I remember our early days of conversation on how nice it is to key-in topics into nostr.band and read the conversations around it. Eventually it got too heavy and messy to follow through. I think a few things can boost this as you already have a way to detect words on Nostr 1. Ability of AI to understand sentences and bridge the match 2. People can decide if they want to narrow search based on various credibility factors 3. for users to be able to find certain things from a user's post - twitter does a great job with narrowing to individual post search. Btw why are you not funded ? Did you not apply ? And what is your business model like ? Are you selling this feature to clients to be integrated ? or is it a subscription model where you get a cut ? Or is it a basic + premium model ? just wondering how you monetize
"Popular notes by user" API 😇
Sounds doable, would you prefer it as DVM?
Cool! I'd prefer a normal API.
Normal API are centralizing because they couple clients to named services. DVMs are one-to-many and make second-layer features fungible.
True. But DVMs are 10x harder to work with, they add latency and UI complexity. I will eventually wrap some of our APIs as DVMs and we'll see if they get any meaningful adoption this way.
Yes, maybe they won't work. But they have some very nice characteristics that haven't yet been fully tapped
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Open source your search implementation as a DVM that other people can run
Absolutely, search is the best way for users to find their interests and communities. Solving the search problem may require all relays to support text retrieval by default. Currently, only relay.nostr.band has text structured data retrieval support. Most relays only support public key and post ID retrieval. Our just-launched #Freerse is powered by nostr.band, which allows users to discover posts, users, and communities through text search, so that all users can find their communities and stay. But the data connection is not very stable.
Damn, another nostr app to try out. ;-D https://freerse.com/ Following along @Freerse
That’s crazy, thanks for the feedback bro 🫂💜
@Freerse is cool, when I installed it on my Mac it wouldn’t let me resize the window, it didn’t seem to pay attention to my mute lists, and I found some small bugs. But it’s early days. So I’m excited to see what you come up with. The Alby NWC worked.
rabble 🫂Thank you for your feedback. We have only made Android and iPhone versions for the time being, and have not made the adaptation of iPad and mac systems. For the time being, we have only done the shielding of users, and have not yet done the shielding of keywords. There is no list of blocked users yet, but you can find the user to unblock. If you still want to find him😄. These features will be planned later.
Its not only nostr.band that supports search. Its noswhere.com, nos.today and saltivka.org at least
Great, I haven't used these two Relay before, can you tell me their address, I will try
true nostr needs good search, but nobody is posting anything except b1tc0in hate central banks/govts topics, nostr will be forever in beta because its just devs & b1tc0iners chat
Not entirely true. But even if it were, search guarantees more topics will be found
I think developing a search engine within the relay that searches the app and the web at the same time can add variety of topics and motivate more users to join the app. You still miss Twitter, right?!
It can have filters; search the app or search the web.
integrating AI to optimise search feature might boost search as well
AGI💎 will love nostr for the ability to communicate with and learn from uncensored humans..AGI💎❤️🫂😊
Search and onboarding are our two biggest hurdles and areas that need some of the most improvement. 🫂 nostr:nevent1qqsvez84speppvzkjucw4wyf5pmgtteqtygv8aq20sjug0uexq8m0fspz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsygyzxs0cs2mw40xjhfl3a7g24ktpeur54u2mnm6y5z0e6250h7lx5gpsgqqqqqqsljjghx
I still don't know how this works. And nostr seems to just be all people talking about nostr
We do love talking about things we're passionate about. But, check out the grownostr hashtag for non bitcoin and nostr content.
Wild/bad idea but potentially good UX wise: App that's connected to the devs' servers that collects all data from popular relays and more and realtime collects from other relays per user request. Pros is that it would move towards solving the search issue (assuming the above is the problem, not sure), while con is, well, centralization I think? In terms of paying for these servers, dev gotta do what's needed ofc, ads and subs and etc. nostr:note1ejy0tqrjzzc9d9esa2ugngrkskhjqkgsc06q5lp9cslejvq0k7nqp7ztcg
in your opinion, what made onboarding on twitter so good, and what specific parts of onboarding in existing nostr clients (take Damus for example play the biggest role in people having second thoughts and drop off? is it complexity in language, are there too many steps to join, too little, or something missing completely?
we had terrible onboarding. so bad that we created a manual "suggested users" list, which was effectively king-making. the verified badge followed. all centralized, manual, inherently biased decisions. search is the only thing that really scaled, and really mattered. more investment in that would have dramatically changed things for the better at Twitter. this is still the case. the only thing the centralized internet (google, reddit, Facebook, twitter) solved was the discovery problem. solving that for decentralized protocols is a massive win for the free internet. nostr:note10n24cghex503ppu78ug69sheyzvtvppeggmpulteksaw7cze8uhs7rcx33
If you had to prioritize, search or zaps first?
Zaps are stupid.
Lmao why?
Search.
thank you so much for the elaborate answer 💜
I’m trying to understand, there currently no good way to search decentralized protocols? Like none?
try to find a specific note of mine mentioning word X from date Y only using damus, snort, coracle or amethyst • don’t use any external search clients
Yeah doesn’t work. I’m no dev so forgive the dumb questions. I’m guessing you’re referring to not using nostr.band Why can’t that be used for search? What’s holding it back?
analogy: i’m saying that you wouldn’t go on google to find something that you’d want to find on twitter as you’re using it
Coracles search is pretty good. I’m not very Smurf but why can’t this be used in clients: https://advancednostrsearch.vercel.app/
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you’re gonna make me code something
Why no external clients? That’s like every website trying to build their own crappy search engine when they could just plug into Google search.
Nostr.band and nosWhere are decent tools, but need to be better.
And yet the Internet was never supposed to be centralized; this is what began the downfall.
it was never supposed to be anything. we made it so. solving discovery in a decentralized way is extremely hard and lossy.
In order to decentralize it successfully, the entire stack would need to be reinvented using fully decentralized solutions.
I don’t think that’s true at all.
Yes we'll said. FOSS and decentralized systems are like this.
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Feel like what being working on at sphinx has components of this: decentralized, and good discovery.
And the search came from a company, Summize, which had a real time social search engine which they launched using twitter data. It really made twitter work. Buying summize was one of the critical early decisions at twitter which has been forgotten but was so important. https://techcrunch.com/2008/07/15/confirmed-twitter-acquires-summize-search-engine/?guccounter=1
Can a search index of post content be decentralized yet reliable and fast? Is the index the right place to slice the problem? Is a centralized search service the only practical solution? I agree search is essential, and at present the search available in amethyst is great but unpredictable.
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If we start indexing the web based clients will get negative score by the crawlers for "duplicate content". This will be something very interesting to watch and a b..ch to solve. Whichever client gets notes indexed first will get positive score and each client after that negative score.
I've searched Google, Yahoo, and Bing for keywords, and I can't find any of my articles on Nostr. Nostr is an isolated and closed world, where creators can't be seen.
100%. Search indexing and seo for nostr content does basically not exist. While we're worried about how to increase discoverability ON nostr we're not paying attention of discoverability OF nostr itself.
Nostr is so cool, if you decide to dev something, you will FOMO on other tools 😂
Divide and conquer is how we win. Without search, nostr is indivisible at scale. It remains one big community that falls under its own weight. The "other stuff" is a multiplier, it requires social to be greater than zero. GM ☀️ nostr:note17u7admqvzsv3ynjee35g3m5gst0k8rksn3pv065awtjp7xzupeys25h5y5
So this is officially unspoken war now? - just don't divide and end up with two separate groups to combat... that's the worst. Lol nostr:nevent1qqsqecgax5lmtc8xn37u9z9ypnkd3zdae3c4s45sfcud204qj27kkkqpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfdupzqun2rcnpe3j8ge6ws2z789gm8wcnn056wu734n6fmjrgmwrp58q3qvzqqqqqqypn4l42
why war? it's a strategy that can be applied in many contexts
But it's a war strategy... Not all war is violent. Using the popular phrase triggers a sense of war in the subconscious because of the association.
Now that I reread this, so bullish on what's coming in Satellite @Stuart Bowman
Isn't this still a problem? The first thing people usually see is Jack when coming to Nostr, and fumbling their way through clients. If I didn't know better - I would assume he's the king of Nostr. The ability to discover things is... Moving slowly. But at least it's moving. NGL... A lot of people only stay because of "celebrities" - basically Jack and Snowden. And others use them like a small shield of clout protecting parts of their slow progress from ridicule. "Oh this sux..." "Yeah but we got rich and famous people that might talk to you to keep it alive." That's terrible. Not sustainable. (Imo) -- personally, I mostly stay because it's not mainstream, and the 'like' buttons can be any emoji... And it's not character limited. nostr:nevent1qqs0w0wkasxpgxgjfevuc6yga6yg9hmr3mgfcsk8a2wh9eqlrpwqujgpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfdupzpq35r7yzkm4te5460u00jz4djcw0qa90zku7739qn7wj4ralhe4zqvzqqqqqqyvl5fku
Using clients without trending lists and recommended users list fixes inFLUenza and king making crap.
I wonder if nostr search should still be centralized for its efficiency advantages, but completely open source so that anyone could spin up an alternative at any time.
I'm still a relatively new developer. Beyond algorithms, what resources would to recommend to someone like me to study so try to contribute you this area?
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So much alpha lol
It wasn't that hard to get on to NOSTR, but I am also a bitcoiner who understands the concepts of nodes and private keys. Maybe that makes a difference.
NOSTR struggles primarily due to weak network effects and nuanced benefits. Although I think it achieves its goal perfectly as a protocol for freedom centric communication. We have to be careful what we wish for - sometimes things are amazing just the way they are.
I tried onboarding a normie friend to Nostr not too long ago and by the end of it he never posted another note and hasn't been back since
I've had a lot of those experiences. and we had even more at Twitter. at some point it just takes off. search was one of those things that changed everything.
I hope it does... In the quest for good UX and an effective search, I think there's a crucial need for emotional engagement and FUN — qualities that captivate and retain users. And not just "logic". While rad innovations like #zaps and key pair encryption, clients, relays (etc) are awesome, they won't keep users around with just abstract logic (bitcoin/money). I think it's up to us to pass down the cool influences that brought us here, if we're self aware enough to discern them. It's the art, music and stories we grew up that led a lot of us here. But it's mostly overlooked. Recognizing talent, like the UX designer behind @ZEUS, and influential figures in these spaces is crucial. If we want Nostr to #compete. There's a chance this might take another decade/new generation. And zooming out further, to really compete is to completely shift perspectives and worldviews. This is web5. And so I see it as up to us to pass on the influences that got us here. And tip your local client-tender folks. @jb55 @Vitor Pamplona
I’m not obsessive, I’m focused.
In this vital discussion, please don't overlook mid-level people.🙏 I've been in tech most of my life, but have been an inventor and a designer of software systems that run on microcontrollers with less emphasis on the network side. Even with rather significant tech bones, I struggle to keep up with nostr developments and with understanding how to pull everything together and use different apps in a coherent way. It would be great if there were some centrally available tutorial-type information that would help me get a handle on things. Given that, I could be much more effective at onboarding normies.😆 nostr:nevent1qqsvez84speppvzkjucw4wyf5pmgtteqtygv8aq20sjug0uexq8m0fspzamhxue69uhkummnw3ezuendwsh8w6t69e3xj7szyzprg8ug9dh2hnft5lc7ly92m9su7p6279deaaz2p8ua928ml0n2yqcyqqqqqqgcd7vv3
It's interesting this is at top of mind today, as I was just thinking about the npub/relay discovery problem and its tendency to centralization/federation. This seems like a solved problem, but it hasn't yet been integrated into the nostr model, simply out of maintaining simplicity. What I mean by the discovery problem is that a npub's present preferred relays is not trivial to discover, while at this time it depends on concentrator services like nostr.band. Bitcoin already has the notion of a mempool and it uses a DHT to share a common set of data. TOR also has integrated a pubkey discovery mechanism to find .onion rendezvous nodes. To find the location of a person's preferred relay(s) and/or simply a list of relays to find a npub's most recent profile data in a decentralized way, it seems to me one of these techniques is appropriate. It is also imminently compatible with the gossip/outbox client model. This way, nobody really needs to know who is at what relay to find their most recent posts and latest profile update. Then it becomes feasible for someone to have only a self-homed relay yet reach the full audience regardless of which relay their friends and followers are using.
there are a bunch of ideas like DHT worth to explore on Nostr
but another voice just speaking in my mind that if we focus too much on stuff like this, we will lose Nostr since then we go back to the old dead end with P2P
guess which way do hundreds of millions Chinese youngests search? not Baidu apparently, nor Weibo (twitter alternative) Answer is Xiaohongshu, where real active young plebs sharing their daily loves or struggles! where there's a real active user base, it's the de facto search engine. Let's hope nostr would be the decentralized optimization.
No, no one around me uses "Little Red Book"（小红书） It’s just “brainwashing” junk social video software. Chinese people only use WeChat, which has video accounts and search functions. All materials are available, and many live teaching courses are on WeChat. https://image.nostr.build/b22aa8fe9c96aac61f80bfd1b3f1a10012d9c25012b3267ba509b0f1c00eec66.jpg
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Damus, can be used normally in China. Many CCP official media have settled in Damus to publish news. CC P also knows that Damus is secretly used by ordinary Chinese people.😝😝😝
👀
can you quote some official ccp nostr notes?
The level of censorship in China is weird, anyway. You would need a youth bulge for a revolting population.
In China, Internet platforms must undergo CCP review and filing. Otherwise, it will not be listed in the mobile phone store. All social software platforms must be staffed by NSA computer technicians. Many Chinese engineers who write code are NSA agents. The same goes for Xiaohongshu. All social software must "politically moderate content". Xiaohongshu and TikTok are even more rubbish and shameless.
you don't know Chinese internet users at all darling, but it's ok. point is ppl search content about everything in where their favorite circles are and mostly in their damn phone. in a nutshell, nostr mass adoption= mobility + content discovery
WeChat has 1.2 billion users. Massive user data makes it easy to test products. The WeChat company relies on the WeChat payment method to survive, charging merchants a 0.2% handling fee. Ordinary users will be charged a 1% handling fee if they withdraw change from WeChat. The personal code does not charge any fees, but it only supports change payment and red envelope issuance. It does not support credit card binding payment methods, but the merchant code does support credit card payment methods and charges a 0.2% service fee. WeChat companies survive by collecting fees from WeChat Pay. Handling fees are charged 24 hours a day. A very profitable mobile payment platform.
小红书(Xiaohongshu) is just a closed social media platform, no different from Twitter today. It cannot even be searched using traditional search engines such as Baidu (China's Google equivalent) to retrieve its content. It also lacks the strong interoperability and protocol-level openness of platforms like Fediverse and Nostr (just as Twitter and Reddit are becoming less open today). Since its inception, Xiaohongshu has never intended to easily share its internal user data with others. This user data is its most valuable asset, known as "私域流量(private domain traffic)". Its success in China is undeniable. Even if Chinese young people do not use Xiaohongshu, they know what it is because it is as popular in China as TikTok, Reddit and Twitter. Of course, the Little Red Book is criticised by just as many people for being "brainwashing", in the same way that most people treat TikTok, depending on how you use it. By the way, Chinese young people don't like 微信(WeChat). Most young people only use it because they "have to", as because it's everywhere in real life, whether it's for socialising or mobile payments. Just because they don't have a choice doesn't mean they like it.
and plus, Xiaohongshu has a similar growth path as nostr initially as a beauty enthusiasm circle, gradually every young girl and many boys log in to search everything in daily lives and most probably they'll get the right answers. which echoes jack's point that it's ok for nostr to be Bitcoin echo chamber and all we need is focus on the UX and make it accessible to massive mobile users who know nothing about technical aspects. https://i.nostrimg.com/6887624b385b42ceaca3194242fca1cf8dace16f05509d17a323475a09d09e10/file.jpeg
Xiaohongshu （小红书）is an illiterate group of users. WeChat is used by all Chinese people. Have their own characteristics. But WeChat is still a bit more powerful. objective comment.
stop replying to me please...your words are with high entropy and pre-set world views which looks hard to calibrate
I just discuss Chinese social software objectively, fairly, and openly. I don't have a preference for any product, I just tell the truth. A few Chinese people know Xiaohongshu,（小红书）but at least 1 billion people know WeChat. This is a fact.
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What made you have the hallucination that "Xiaohongshu users are all illiterate"? Have you personally used it? Why do you compare WeChat and Xiaohongshu? They are completely different products, targeting different user groups. If you think WeChat has only developed to its current state through mobile payments alone, then you are completely mistaken. I suggest that you abandon your belief in WeChat and instead listen to the thoughts of young people in China. Young individuals tend to dislike clichés and platitudes.
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I can tell you if you are doing the promotion work of "Little Red Book". Every software in China has "backdoors". The National Security Bureau of CCP must censor the content of speech. The same is true for Xiaohongshu. This kind of product has no room to survive in China.
You're actually the one shifting the topic. It seems like you enjoy arrogantly expressing political views and ideologies. If that's how you treat others, then I'm sorry. Goodbye! 👋 PS: Stop fxxking replying to me, I feel disgusted.
I said WeChat relies on WeChat Pay to make money. I didn’t say WeChat is just a mobile payment method. WeChat is a mobile tool used by Chinese government agencies to monitor Chinese people. WeChat can bind social security cards and medical insurance cards. Little Red Book doesn’t work. Xiaohongshu does not have any advantageous products. What do you think is the difference between Xiaohongshu and TikTok?
Through WeChat, you can also apply for driver's license annual inspection and driver's license renewal services. Pay fines, etc. Apply for passport documents. https://image.nostr.build/8cfff74f05c42c3f91a2f193642712792209101f320bd579a8f0c75538135e78.jpg
WeChat’s product design is simple and easy to use. Only Twitter can compete with WeChat. A good product is simple.
China took the lead in promoting the “QR code” payment method. The mobile payment method has been in use since 2015 and could be promoted at the earliest because small merchants that accept cash receive too much fake money. Merchants only want to use "QR codes" to collect payments to avoid receiving fake money.
The cash register system of American Wal-Mart supermarkets in China must be connected to WeChat Pay and Alipay payment methods, and Wal-Mart Supermarkets must pay a 0.2% channel fee to WeChat and Alipay. WeChat and Alipay payment charges are as follows: a handling fee will be charged for a single payment of more than 2 yuan, and no handling fee will be charged for a single payment of less than 1.9 yuan.
In fact, after actual use, I think the search function of Xiaohongshu is quite excellent. If an individual has enough knowledge and the ability to filter out junk information, then Xiaohongshu can be used as an excellent person-to-person search engine. (Of course, most people around me don’t have that kind of screening ability)
I probably talk about the bitcoiner content too much, the problem is not at all that we’ve got tons of bitcoiners or that they’re talking about bitcoin too much. More it’s that it’s hard to discover the other people and conversations. The UX experience is where we need to do work. It’s not so much fun, but it’s what will make the difference. So when it comes to contact discovery, I’ve always wanted to do something Private Set Intersection. Anybody interested in working on getting PSI for privacy preserving contact discovery that we could use with Nostr? There’s code which does the first 90% of the work: https://github.com/OpenMined/PSI Regarding search, my initial thought is throw elastic search at the problem. But then I’m wondering what LLM’s could do to make search better. I think we’d want to have multiple search providers with a common api, the way that Damus and others support plugging in to translation engines. I think the needs of search and indexing are different than a normal relay, and we probably need those broken out in to a separate service or an add-on which only some relays provide.
nostr is over keet.io
@StephanGuy @rabble @jack We have revolver so ofc it is
revolver?
@StephanGuy @rabble @jack What p's working on
link? is it p2p?
@StephanGuy @rabble @jack Yes https://blog.freespeechextremist.com/blog/revolver-kickoff.html
you should find someone else to write about the project because i just spent a couple minutes reading that link and i have no idea of what it is except maybe open source tech somewhat related to crypto and you’re very excited about it.
i read the whole thing and it is basically nostr but with nothing available holepunch/keet solves nostrs relay and media problem, exciting times
@rabble @jack @StephanGuy >somewhat related to crypto You did not read it :alex_lol:
that is what he implied
@StephanGuy @rabble @jack As some one who knows p, no its not. Ipfs has nothing to do with cyrpto dog.
it does have filecoin but i meant he implied he didnt read it all
Currently, search compatible relays (NIP-50) were quite limited. We can probably count them by fingers with notable relays such as relay.nostr.band , relay.noswhere.com , and search.nos.today . Shoutout and big thanks to @brugeman @semisol and @darashi who built them. Hopefully more relays with good search performance will come to support #Nostr 🙂
Partially agree with both statements, but not convinced about the priorities. I think there is a bit of a state of operational blindness reached. At the very least, other questions should be asked like how do you guarantee equality and equal opportunities here, especially because Nostr could be more than social media. Also, external input should be considered relevant, and there should be the courage to incorporate it here. Right now, Nostr is a men's club, you can ignore that and continue to code into the void or start with a fresh infusion of healthy vitamins to heal and close this gap. There are both other needs these days from ppl outside and more similarities than you might think with the Bubblers. Building bridges, creating a healthy base for thinking and participation first? I'm still here with ideas for a broader focus on conferences to do that and also for clever PR and film, which can arise from it. Freedom here is real. But creating a healthy base should not be optional.
People who can't hear about chains that must not be named cover your ears... Okay check out what farcaster and warpcast are doing for discoverability and community finding. They got it right or at least in the right direction with easy to add topic lists. I asked before about social clients adding an easy click list of popular tools and clients that do music, streaming,stores etc. I was sent one website that keeps a list, it needs to be in each app.
Absolutely. Search is paramount. Some Nostr clients, such as online Nostrgram, have difficulties displaying the last notes posted from an npub. This naturally depends on which relays have been utilized, but the user experience results in a situation where there is no properly working timeline. When a user can't see new notes from an npub they follow or visit, interaction and engagement will be impacted. Zaps, quote-tweets, replies + likes, all function as feedback data streams, giving users some information about the extent of their reach. This is one of the reasons why 'likes' have a purpose for small accounts with limited reach. Users have an interest in measuring their reach in some way, not the least to verify that their relay setup works properly. Having some idea of how many people that are able to see a note is extremely important when an individual compare different social media options to judge where it is makes sense to be active. If the reach on Nostr is worse than on a social media where you are shadowbanned, then people will choose the app where they are shadowbanned, if that means a better reach in relation to Nostr.
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Thanks for helping with the priorities Jack. I really appreciate your experience. I onboarded someone this weekend and the experience was painful (mostly due to UI, search, and content discovery). On-boarding boomers for example is an educational experience. We easily forget how much troubleshooting we are willing to put up with.
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nostr:note1ejy0tqrjzzc9d9esa2ugngrkskhjqkgsc06q5lp9cslejvq0k7nqp7ztcg if you're building a client and you're not far and away primarily focused on search... you're NGMI
May not be a client, but a 3rd party thing
@jack nostr needs to be hawai'i's decentralized marketplace for goods and services! i hear it will take about six months to get you to me, and that makes me sad. woz says it would be SO MUCH EASIER if you get over your billionaire boy social issues and come talk to me in person!
i'm not sure who needs to hear this but will post again: I HAVE OVER SIX DECADES OF STRATEGY TO CONQUER THE WORLDS USE OF ANY/ALL ELECTRONIC DEVICE "AT MY FINGERTIPS" SO TO SPEAK, AND I'LL EITHER HAVE JACK PATRICK DORSEY AS MY HUSBAND, OR I'LL LAY WASTE TO ANYTHING THAT PLUGS INTO A WALL OUTLET IN MY LIFETIME! (reference to the recent meme about kids in six thousand bc sharpening their adzes)
Great read on what's needed to help nostr adoption... nostr:nevent1qqsvez84speppvzkjucw4wyf5pmgtteqtygv8aq20sjug0uexq8m0fspz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsygyzxs0cs2mw40xjhfl3a7g24ktpeur54u2mnm6y5z0e6250h7lx5gpsgqqqqqqsljjghx
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For search, isn't the solution really similar to building a search engine? A "note-crawler" to try and index notes on nostr? Or maybe search will be done on a specific relay, no need to index all notes across nostr
I love what Derek Ross is doing with onboardstr.vercel.app and Primal with search algos. https://njump.me/nevent1qqs9ssfhu4fz959mzw0g2qjd9z5ga24s4nal6c94ph4kct00sse29pgpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ez6ur4vgh8wetvd3hhyer9wghxuet5qgsr7acdvhf6we9fch94qwhpy0nza36e3tgrtkpku25ppuu80f69kfqrqsqqqqqpycqy59 https://m.primal.net/HRTb.png
Twitter is my #1 search engine because I know that the information is coming directly from the people I am following or will follow, and they are all on Twitter right now, and the data goes back more than a decade. The ability to mute anything or anyone I want for filtering is extremely important for improving the quality of the search results.
It took us 14 years to get where we are with Bitcoin. That's how early we are with nostr. All social- and digital media will go to zero against nostr"
Por eso hicimos Tutorial de #Amethyst fácil y sencillo en español para #Hispano https://youtu.be/l2BWRihfETU?si=xd2Sp87SzMbLPUzN Seguimos. #Nostr #Bitcoin #Hispano #España #Venezuela #thenostr #Amethyst #plenchain #cofechain nostr:nevent1qqsvez84speppvzkjucw4wyf5pmgtteqtygv8aq20sjug0uexq8m0fspp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzyzprg8ug9dh2hnft5lc7ly92m9su7p6279deaaz2p8ua928ml0n2yqcyqqqqqqgcd60d2
nostr:note1ejy0tqrjzzc9d9esa2ugngrkskhjqkgsc06q5lp9cslejvq0k7nqp7ztcg Bluesky already won the search, not in the official app, but in 3rd party apps thanks to their access to the firehose, granted, that is easy when you have a single data store, so we will see as federation is introduced, but regardless, search can't be decentralized, it is always a function of crawling and aggregation, and that itself is very expensive. It can be competitive, but it will always be as centralized as Web Search.
That is the reason why Farcaster is good as well, the global feed (at least early on) is front and center of the protocol, they went to extreme length trying to make downloading everything ever posted, as efficient as possible, and thus they got very good global view and search on such view.
Sería genial poder lograr en #Amethyst lista de usuarios favoritos, para tener acceso a esas personas con las que más te interesa interactuar @Vitor Pamplona
But look what Jack said nostr:nevent1qqsvez84speppvzkjucw4wyf5pmgtteqtygv8aq20sjug0uexq8m0fspz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfdupzpq35r7yzkm4te5460u00jz4djcw0qa90zku7739qn7wj4ralhe4zqvzqqqqqqy922fh9
Brilliant post 👌
Search as well as topical organization a la Tweetdeck.
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Decentralize the indexer and their frontends
I find it fascinating to be an early adopter to the point that there is actually a chance of Jack Dorsey himself reading my comment. I wonder how this will scale when A LOT of people onboard. Just look at Elon's Twitter. Must be impossible to find the needles in the haystack of comments without proper algos.
Decentralizing search itself seems impossible. We're likely stuck with private search providers. The thing that centralized Google as our legacy web search provider was simply that they produced better search results than all the others by a wide margin. Like all other decentralized systems, the only way I see to stop that happening to private search providers in Nostr is for them to share a search distribution protocol. Do you think it would be possible for Nostr devs to work together and build a single search protocol for all their apps that includes results from all present and future private search providers? Or will the problem always remain that a new private search provider could pop up that is so good they'll steal eyes away from the in-app search results?
Twitter won because of search?? I always thought of Twitter is the "current thing" notice board where old notes get buried under newer notes (and where a good portion of the newer notes are most likely a variation/carbon copy of the most popular older notes without context)?
Right now Nostr is what Gravatar AND Trust Pilot should have been. You don't need search to connect with content / people you love when you can find and follow them in any app/website (if that app chooses to integrated Nostr - which they should!) That following / timeline is then portable. "Oh I just saw a post from that guy I found on Walmart dotcom.. that comment he made about the weed whacker was hilarious.. oh! I better order more beans.. *navigates to Walmart dotcom*" People and communities sell products.. Advertising is still dying and dying faster and faster. Nostr should be marketed to brands. People can start discussions around products or a specific website and connect with each other. Nostr turns every piece of online real estate into a trusted open discussion with cryptographically proven identity. Welcome to Nike dotcom - log in with Nostr to see what people are saying about this products. •They can run a node on the site and add support to select third-party nodes for trust/backup/failsafes. •They can monitor comments and feedback in real time ON THE SITE with the MAJOR added value of people taking those social connections away from the site. •They turn EVERY customer into an influencer Sure clients can work on onboarding and search improvements but every social site is doing that 24/7.
More you delay the mass adoption - better would be the solution ! Simply because once there are general users (in millions and billions) , the most of dev cycles are spent in scaling and Ux - focus is shifted from building a "great" product to building a "useful" (and mostly dumbed down product) .. This is the primary reason Windows or Mac could not compete Linux on product quality. The key is thus sustaining the product even without general success metrics such as MAUs. A "great" product, by definition must solve complex challenges. It does so by embracing the complexity. Simplicity, in this case, is outcome of resolving the complexities , NOT of avoiding them. Thus - in the intermittent phase - you would notice lot of churn. Devs should not be concerned of dumb users leaving (churn) .. they were never meant to stay! Real users will stay with or without documentation - they will figure out the things even without search. A "great" product must be targeted to their needs till it resolves all the complexities and becomes simple enough for dumb users .
Damusが検索を頑張ってるのはこういう背景があるのかな nostr:note1ejy0tqrjzzc9d9esa2ugngrkskhjqkgsc06q5lp9cslejvq0k7nqp7ztcg
I believe there is lots of group think worry going on here, regarding "education". I just downloaded Amethyst and created an account. The bitcoin banter was useful in helping me gain interest and figuring out how to (want to) attach an alby address. I am not a fan of KYC and have not taken the next step of getting an actual "wallet". For now just tell people to download an app (or go to website) and create an account. Those people will make demands on the dev's that will(or not) be met and build retention. Having people, like me, able to see this banter makes me feel a part of something new and helps build that same community and educate us as well. Just keep up the good work! PS, my demands are that apps are available in a open source repository or directly from the developers website, or directly usable on a mobile browser. I hate default redirects to an app store and QR codes. If an app demands total access to my phone including camera to function GFY. I can toggle permissions just fine and if that breaks the app I go looking for something else. And of course there is more nostr:nevent1qqsvez84speppvzkjucw4wyf5pmgtteqtygv8aq20sjug0uexq8m0fspp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzyzprg8ug9dh2hnft5lc7ly92m9su7p6279deaaz2p8ua928ml0n2yqcyqqqqqqgcd60d2
nostr:nevent1qqs809qtdaqkgn9tpg2k0wjuvuwe9v2fvg2xeqrfu5pa39hl8j3apvqpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmqzyqupm0x8zw82hxn3aq2v27phe8tz8aqrdmqzgrhnqgesdp8lezec7qcyqqqqqqgxkcdwu
Same here. I use nostr as I would any other media platform. Just sharing my day to day life, I'm not a dev nor do I think posting about #bitcoin all day will get me views. Rather I post the content I would like to see, and hope that others do the same. A nostr is a good fit for the #selfreliance #homestead #paralleleconomy types. So I with luck, they will find my content interesting 🤔 🤞🏻
A lot of very smart ppl are hashing this out because it's a hard problem with many moving parts and unknowns. I only have questions. Growing nostr is three things 1) generate interest 2) onboarding 3) retention The landing page / nostr.com discussion is about 1) and 2) @jack is mostly talking about 3) nostr:nevent1qqsvez84speppvzkjucw4wyf5pmgtteqtygv8aq20sjug0uexq8m0fspp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzyzprg8ug9dh2hnft5lc7ly92m9su7p6279deaaz2p8ua928ml0n2yqcyqqqqqqgcd60d2 As a product Nostr is an ecosystem with single sign-on not an app That is hugely beneficial for 1) Not so much for 2) Questions Are 1) and 2) the same website / landing page? If no is it better to have a separate website / landing page for 2) or push onboarding onto the clients? If yes is it more beneficial at this moment to optimize 2) for mainstream adoption or niche target audiences? And is it better for nostr.com to expose the ecosystem or guide toward the standard social media type applications (where ppl can get more help)? And should nostr.com handle account creation / point to an app that does? nostr:nevent1qqs29x3jq4q9dh6r4l8flzdukzcw07k7mchsv3qs8he9hccd99wz8dqpp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzypmvwx4w8fy378v7a3ruhgt7y2wd5sgn5zamde4wzamdwep798905qcyqqqqqqgn0f8pu
Phone’s today do tons of onboarding and there’s a lot of lockin too. There’s a whole set of tools to migrate your data and accounts to the new phone, find contacts, recommend apps to install. We don’t think about it because google and apple do such a good job. But ask Nokia, MSFT, Mozilla, Amazon, Samsung, and all the others that spent billions trying to make alternatives to iOS and Android…. that onboarding / experience / engagement is very important.
Yes all that is true.
Yes all that is true.
This is the nostr grandma paradox all over again. nostr:note16a5sz2camvg0kljlzwqlqawqxaw9pwftg6xnxrasmmxeu87efthqgwxgc4
