9 for me... 

 My goal in making grain was to reduce this list. 2 of them are my own relays. It's hard because you want to have reach, (your notes on lol or damus, but you don't necessarily rely on those relays to indefinitely store your notes) 
As a user, I'm skeptical to remove the big relays because I'm unsure if all clients will look at my specified relay list for my notes. Grain will get a backup relay config soon enough. Then you can specify a blaster relay as your backup and know you've broadcast to a big public list while your relay list can remain small. 
https://image.nostr.build/c3ad37b5c0f73af2bcd3b8582c94ab1a08d3d94d8d37e6618414bc0e4b02436b.jpg 

 You are breaking Alby: 
nostr:nevent1qqs8lwes70xltmqnz7qg7wq5uew5e8ny0s9zh3x9fz44atyw5ekrdqsppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qgsrxra3gv0lnkxz2pcxh0xuq9k4f9dr7azwq3aypqtnay4w0mjzmtqrqsqqqqqp3w9nel 

 Hrm. Would how this be related? 

 NM. I see how.

nostr:nevent1qqsgktx7rrf7m53cpfjs3sfyxdw625lqafam66jhzft5rpnxufrpe8spz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsygpnp7c5x8lemrp9qurthnwqzm25jk3lw38qg7jqs9e7j2h8aepd4spsgqqqqqqse4z009 

 with 11 relays and let's say a relay URL is ~20 characters long that's then 220+ bytes in the zap request. that still should be good, I've seen muuuch more than that. 

Alby Hub for example also returns that metadata in the transaction list and as the whole transaction list also has a size limit (as it's just a nostr event) a lot of transactions with big zap requests can become an issue there, too.  

 This makes sense and as you said, this could be seen as an attack vector.  

 Yeah, It matters a lot. You need to know they are not going to delete your stuff and that your followers can connect to that relays to download your posts. 

If they are private and your followers can't use them, it doesn't make sense to put there. 

If they are just deleting everything you send because they think you are a spammer, then no one will see what you post. 

Those relays are your home for your posts. Everyone of your followers will connect to them to download what you have to say. If the relay is fucking with them, then they are going to see what the relay wants them to see. 

So, make sure you know what they are doing and you trust these relays.  

 Anywhere to check them and see the most reliable? 

 Sure, but meanwhile, people need to take responsibility for their lists. Most don't. They just adds a bunch to shit and expect things to magically work. 

 this is client side stuff tho, your app can be a little less dumb about writing those events in this case 

 No, we can't. Either the sender of events MUST connect to 20 relays so that all 20 have the same info and receivers then don't need to connect to all 20 OR The sender just sends to ONE relay and receivers must connect to all 20 to get all events. 

There is no "smart" way around this. 

That's why keeping the list small is EXTREMELY important.  

 then you might need to make some suggestions in the nips repo about nip-65 that there be a cap on this for these reasons

clients can then refuse to set more than this number, or crop them, and other clients will have to follow suit to help their users 

 i have 4, i think that's reasonable... two i pay for, 1 i host and one i manage from a hosting provider... i'd say probably the spec should stipulate "no more than 5" there's really no benefit from allowing more than 5 for in/outboxes

3 is probably enough for most cases but 5 is complete, you can't argue you need more redundancy than that 

 Well that view won't help users to onboard here. 

 Correct. But you won't be truly free until you fully control your relay lists.  

 If you have 20+ relays, and clients don't connect to 20+ relays to send, the clients that are trying to see things need to connect to all 20 relays to get everything from that user. 

One side must always connect to 20 or a LOT of things will be missing.

Which is extremely DUMB. Just reduce the amount of relays.  

 Most likely apps will just crop to the first 3 relays and if the first 3 are crap no one will see people's posts. 

It's up to users to choose where to store their posts. If they choose crap, they get crap out of the system.  

 isn't this just about the relay hints on zaps tho? 

 also maybe just pick random 3 instead of dumbly selecting by dumb ordering 

 Picking relays from the list simply results in less events and missing content. It doesn't matter how you pick.  

 how many clients actually implement nip-65 at this point, maybe 4 of them? 

 Maybe, but all 4 do the same and want small lists. Every body else uses kind 3 relay lists (The general section on Amethyst). You can keep large general section lists, and smaller outbox lists.  

 Good way to learn! Make bad decisions, get bad results. Haha. 
As long as on boarding sets people up with good choices, they should understand the value of nostr and bad relay decisions with bad results would come later once they already know the value of nostr (my concern was that it would scare/confuse them away) 

 That's an issue we don't have a good solution for. But usually relays have a terms and conditions and privacy policy on what they receive and keep. You should ask the relays you are using for that documentation. 

If you are paying, they keep your notes.  

 But other than that, the relays icons below each post author refer to which relays sent that event back to the client. You can use on your posts to see which relays are receiving your events.  

 Thanks, that explains those numbers, but I meant the ones in the relays settings https://image.nostr.build/afb5e53d09efe244ab8c526635a586fafb25969e26cc1fcdfa54272bcd7897f3.jpg 

 Ping time in milliseconds 

 Obviously, that explains higher number --> red 🤪 

 Public OutBox and Public Inbox are for your followers. If they can't use those relays, there is no point on keeping them there. 

You can use the Private Home, Local Relays or the general list to keep things that only you can access.  

 It means that your old follow list was not posted to the relays you choose. You can add them back and try to repost it there. If it doesn't work, the relays you selected are not accepting your follow list. It might be too big for them.  

 as a relay dev i support this message

https://i.imgflip.com/9860k2.jpg

it's time for... i don't even remember teh name of the nip

but it's time that lists were moved to a one small event per add/remove

for follows, for relays, for mutes, for community memberships 

 Okay.. i'll go and try somethings.. i understand you're busy and dont have to teach me. But for a normy UX feedback, got no idea how to post lists anywhere 😅 

 The relay lists should be published to as many relays as possible. That's why they need to be small. These records are the main points to get people to find you and your posts. So, they should be everywhere.  

 i've been calling for this for a while but it raises a spam problem

user metadata, relay lists, follows, mutes, all of these need to be everywhere

how do we go about making sure they end up on as many relays as possible without opening up a spam attack vector? 

 Only the outbox lists must be everywhere. 

The outbox list is like a DNS, it points to where (which relays) your metadata, mutelists, follows ect are. So, you don't need these other events everywhere. They can all be hosted by the user's home relay. 

 well, that makes it simpler

relays could be broadcasting updates to them and fix that problem, still need some sort of rate limiter but this narrows down what you actually need to give auth-free access to 

 How do we achieve that goal in Amethyst for example?

Do we automatically publish our outbox and inbox relay lists to all relays under "general relays"? 

 I put mine up a while back. I had a couple of weird things going on, but it was a fair example of a not-totally-crap relay list. 

nostr:nevent1qqs0yeftzyq30u0527qn24uwvwjeap562q22c0lyfwf9mj4d5kjms7gpz3mhxw309ucnydewxqhrqt338g6rsd3e9upzpk8n3wy5kshhqzpstn4lz76gjft9fu3trqx9scdcz9qlsrx0w2zgqvzqqqqqqyffvsqv 

 You can keep the general relay list large if you want. The 3-relay limit is only for the first lists.  

 I'm not sure other clients even offer that configuration per use-case 

 It's probably safe to say Amethyst is the goat. 

 Oh, thanks, I was just about to ask how the general list worked with that. 

How does the 3-relay limit affect discovery? For example, a new nostrich comes in with wine, lol, and mom as relays. How well will their notes get out when they have no followers? I would say commenting to notes is the best way to be heard, but is that still an accurate statement? 

 Yes, if you comment or react to a note, you will post to the inbox relays of the note author and anyone in the tags. Then their clients will pull your notes from your outbox relays if they look at your profile or follow you 

 Yep, the relays clients use to send things come from other lists as well. The inbox and outbox lists and just for your follows to know where you post as. Not for you to use in your apps.  

 I have 3 in my inbox outbox list: nos.lol, vitor.nostr1.com and Nostr.wine . I don't know what primal is looking at. Maybe they are just summing all relays from all the multiple lists into one. 
 

 Primal doesn't implement inbox/outbox.  

 Same question.

I have 11 relays and I saw a post saying no more than 12 like a week ago. Primal doesn’t seem to break it down by in/out relays 

 This writeup from Vitor helped me a lot; *not all clients offer all the customization

https://yakihonne.com/article/naddr1qq9hyetvv9uj6um9w36hqq3qgcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqxpqqqp65wjvcq4q 

 No, the 3 relays are the relays you have chosen to store your posts and to receive your notifications from other users. They can be anything you want them to be. Every client should connect directly to them to download your posts. 

The receiver will pick one of them to download posts from, so make sure ALL of your posts are there in ALL of them at ALL times. Meaning... Pick good relays. 

This is for the outbox relays only. Other relay lists might want more or less depending on each use case.  

 If the 3 relays actually relayed my data onto many other relays then I’d understand 

But if they don’t do that then the people I want to see my posts will  have to have these 3 relays in their outbox right? 

Sorry I’m not quite understanding it so dont feel the need to reply 

What I can see though is that there is a massive incentive to run your own relay (off a node or vps) so that you have true data sovereignty AND you (or major content producers/communitues) can then prompt people to subscribe to your relay 

 They don't relay your data to other relays. They just store it, like a regular relay would. 

However, your followers will connect directly to them, regardless of your followers relay setup. That's how the outbox model works. It doesn't use fixed relay lists. The relay list is dynamically assembled from a super set of relays from everyone you follow. 

 Without knowing that (and pretend I'm a normie) I am inclined to just use the biggest names I recognise like damus and I am also going to include any paid relay because I'm assuming they're going to do a better job than a free service 

Lastly (as a normie) I'm inclined to simply copy the same three relays from the outbox list to the inbox list because I don't understand the difference 

I'm only half being serious here (playing devils advocate) because I do appreciate what you are trying acheive but as a user the app is really making me think... 

I just want to set it and forget it... I'd be happy if this was automated for me 

I've paid for nostr.wine so I'm just going to put them in every section of that relay setup page 1st then damus second and another big name 3rd 

Not too sure if thus Feedback useful to you but I hope it helps  

 That's awesome. Nostr.wine is great for an Outbox relay but doesn't really work as Inbox, since it charges to post. People sending you replies, zaps, likes, etc will have to pay for Nostr.wine for it to accept their posts. 

But the others work, you can use nos.lol, damus or nostr.mom as Inbox. 

For PRIVATE Inbox, where your DMs go, you can use auth.nostr1.com or inbox.nostr.wine (another payment) to keep your DMs VERY private. Or just add nos.lol or nostr.mom to make it less private, but allow Amethyst to provide DM notifications.  

 Yeah, that would be cool indeed. 

The logs are for all lists together, sync Amethyst only uses one connection to run the actions of the separate lists.  

 No, the "one in common" strategy is the legacy strategy. The outbox model changes it to "this is my relays" strategy where users have to download the relay list for all the people they follow and then process the list into a mega relay list, connect to all of them and download the data.  

 I think I see. So I no longer need to ensure I have a broad set of relays to see content. My client will fetch from relays of those I follow automatically. 

 There is no wrong way to do nostr. There are less optimal ways, and this one is really an app/client bug, not a user one. 

 Firstly, you need to start following people or just hang out in the new w/replies or most zapped etc and comment in others threads. 
If you’re helpful/thoughtful people will start to follow you. 
Only your followers see your notes. 
Replies are much better when you’re starting out.
🧡🍻👊🏻 

 For example, you should follow me
🤣 

 ha, thought i already did 🫢🫣 

 If you are on Amethyst, you should add to the general relays section, not to the outbox 

 Yes. 

 I just saw yours, all of the lists are fine, you just need to reduce the first one, the Outbox. Just pick the 3 relays you are SURE keep all your posts. 

Move the others to General if they are not already there.  

 I'm on Nostrudel, but I'll try again. 

 No, Damus does not support Inbox/Outbox yet. You can leave the list as you have for now.  

 No additional? I have 1 paid one. Total 10 

 It’s pretty smooth though!! 

 They should keep just 3. Otherwise clients will just pick the first 3 and most of their events will never show up anywhere.  

 I don't think there is a good tool for that in any platform. Somebody should make one.  

 That would definitely make it easier, i would love to be able to really manage that information properly, not overcrowd relays and make things overly redundant 😅