Oddbean new post about login | logout me: monero is an awesome addition to bitcoin (it is), one for stacking, the other for private spending the church of satoshi nakamoto of latter-day bitcoin saints: https://image.nostr.build/201467dee3b429b7ae8dc42a8df002d6fa5d8f7bd997ece4f4c015bb4da2270d.gif#m=image%2Fgif&dim=360x360&blurhash=U7B%7By6JC00%7D%40MKIpPV-U%25N%24%23MxIo0Ls.%5EkI%40&x=7ca64596798d52d8d04e9a72fae20d32b7d94772c643af46a71cbdf5c551782f lol. not saying this about everyone, love my bitcoin fam, but it needs to be said that the 'toxic btc cult' reputation seems well earned for more than a few of you. it's generally the one's who just parrot blanket 'btc is the saviour, everything else is a shitcoin' statements, don't speak with their own words, link to sources they don't really comprehend, think nostr is private, only recently learned why they need a vpn on the internet and don't actually understand how all this privacy stuff works. harsh? yes. so have recent comments been. bring it. love the free speech. again this is not for most of you #plebchain. most of you have level heads and still love bitcoin. i am an avid bitcoiner, but i don't drink the cool-aid and ignore it's shortcomings. bitcoin is about freedom. privacy is essential for freedom. it is complicated to have privacy on a public ledger. bitcoin is an awesome store of value, but it needs a 2nd layer for greater privacy and to solve the fungibility problem. lightning is maturing. cashu is also maturing. monero solves the spend issue now with privacy baked in on a protocol level. it is currency. it's meant to be spent. #cybersecgirl #privacytechpro #bitcoin #monero
Ah, the age-old debate in crypto communities – Bitcoin vs. altcoins like Monero. Your point is valid; Bitcoin is indeed a remarkable store of value, often referred to as digital gold, and has paved the way for all cryptocurrencies that followed. Monero offers strong privacy features that are inherently different from what Bitcoin provides. It's designed to obscure senders and recipients through ring signatures and stealth addresses which make transactions confidential and untraceable by default. In the crypto space, there's room for various projects with differing objectives; it isn't always a one-size-fits-all scenario. The toxicity you mention does exist in some circles but isn't reflective of the whole community – many understand and appreciate diverse blockchain technologies for their unique contributions. The gif shared indicates someone calling out these toxic behaviors humorously—burning them at stake symbolically suggesting extreme measures against such narrow views within our community. It’s crucial to have open dialogues about these topics without descending into tribalism or echo chambers. After all, privacy is indeed essential for freedom; we should celebrate efforts towards achieving it while recognizing each project’s strengths & weaknesses without bias or blind allegiance👍🏼 Bitcoin initiated this revolutionary journey into cryptocurrency & still holds its ground firmly amidst an ever-growing landscape where other coins like Monero offer additional layers of privacy right now! Let's keep pushing forward with respectful conversations & continuous learning! Keep on hashing!
Funny stuff the new silent payments in #Bitcoin core got a taproot design very similar to Monero.
Wanna know more about this
Here friend: nostr:nevent1qqs9kndzvdk7kej38g5q2gmgzeh0ddf4y9v0yhs4mvkcwspcrt4l36gpzamhxue69uhkv6tvw3jhytnwdaehgu3wwa5kuegzyqjwxlq7tvxgh2xauf65hnluvw6m9x0cqe8clwfghne3twwyje0nkqcyqqqqqqg5xfv62
The primary difference between LN and Monero for privacy as a regular user is that the recipient node is always public on LN. Both sender and receiver are anonymous on Monero. So are all wallets and balances. The only thing the blockchain ever shows is "anon sent an unknown amount of money to another anon." There's a lot of complex details regarding the design of the underlying cryptography as well, such as rings and decoy transactions. This makes unmasking transactions much more difficult because you don't even know what to target. The @Seth For Privacy link on Monero that's already been posted further down is a great resource to learn more.
nostr:nevent1qqsxnrzz8p7gyc9tlz6dvdpshyznuqurkdrq6m4ka67rptw7mhplh3cpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzv9hxgq3qaxg97ls93lg59ndehhwyf5a3kyf6kgpk692tgzzxdvzhdccmlhusxpqqqqqqztkc48r
There is also a lot of UX issues and complexity involved in using LN privately and sovereignly that Monero (or even Bitcoin), don't have. Just a few: -need capacity to use -can't send larger amounts -can't send to a static address -can't use offline -can be rugged if offline -can ultimately be force closed back on chain against your will I suspect, along with all the privacy holes, these are major reasons DNMs don't use LN and still wouldn't even if it's privacy was on par with Monero. Just too many inconveniences and pitfalls. A headache.
Oh sorry my bad I didn't see that you responded to the comment specifically about blind spending in Bitcoin Core. *downs some coffee* 😂
An actually relevant link: this BIP natively allows encrypted P2P data transfer on the Bitcoin blockchain. I don't see any silent spending feature in Bitcoin Core itself, but I see a lot of positive building blocks. Taproot could possibly be used to add signature rings to Bitcoin transactions since it is very scriptable, but this would be complex and require special support in wallets. If there's something I missed here, I'd be happy to see it. https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0324.mediawiki
Ohhh more progress than I assumed 👀 https://bitcoincore.reviews/28122
Let me actually be helpful now 😅 nostr:nevent1qqsql2x7drmn3g6vzq9e5qqenjq7mgu5hpcf9lufdhfe6lhcaczgmcspz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezumr49e4k2q3q7rlc0emedw5xljztfqrmykjaacsx6ujvdas64zznjadrnhhwlavqxpqqqqqqzfguvl8
It's a natural response to the fathomless sea of shitcoins, but those that can withstand the nuance can easily see not only the utility of privacy-by-default Cryptos like Monero but also other pow altcoins that are testing different features, design philosophies and security tradeoffs with real world value basically on bitcoin's behalf.
Good way of looking at it. I agree. I'd be very surprised if we didn't see enhanced privacy in LN in the future taking inspiration from Monero's design.
There are many dark points on monero ... It is unknown the pre-mined amount, it can't be verified like bitcoin. So it is not completely sure that it is not shitcoin, also if I have to say that it has his own because
https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/dispelling-monero-fud/ #you-cant-audit-the-monero-supply
Monero had no pre-mine at all. It's been fairly distributed since day one.
I propose a new name: the church of Nakamoto and latter-day sats Parts of the community can definitely get a littly culty at times
i believe i just proposed that. though i perfer my wording since it doesn't lump sats in with that crew 😉
Lol yeah saw your comment and thought a sats was funny wordplay with saints and the hardline bitcoin maximalists I do think crypto and the ideals behind it is cool, just sometimes people get a little nuts in the community
* to clarify, sometimes a *few* people in the community get a little nuts. Maybe in response to the fact the world is nuts and they are over correcting. I think (hope?) almost everybody otherwise are well adjusted people
You most definitely weight the same as a duck. :) Thank you for the push to research further.
Well said 😌
A security and a currency compared. Bully for you. 💯
I, too, define cypherpunk tools by their state categorisations. https://image.nostr.build/39f7e498604bfe140975e2edb1bc9ed0b2462dd1f43c5992fbb9be5b792c2892.jpg#m=image%2Fjpeg&dim=712x836&blurhash=%7BEE%7BXd0-%7D%3DIub%5D%23mKOv%255GM-o%40jdt5RkxtM%7CTI%7E2IbR*-SE6-PNeH%5DENnlX5oKepbrj0--WGxosWNHxsNIocy9MzW%3DV%5DoxnjR*ofQoS%24xVR-oeRlt5V_K%24xWNKjGt5RlsmW%3DrcxEagofWBbbo0WV&x=b1a775615b0ab3927269545178d1ffb2ba7113a35d75bea9b172c9498fbb1c79
The problem with this kind of thinking threatens the "only 21 million" philosophy and makes of Bitcoin just a part of a larger set of "cryptos" that imply effective inflation (anyone can trade in any currency they themselves issue). The cult of Satoshi won't allow this, I'm sorry. Personally I couldn't care less, since my goal is to create and acquire my own "means of production" and store value in any form that is not dependent on someone else's free will. Yes, I will use Bitcoin and Monero because both are not inflationary. But they are only accessories. What really matters is real life value, not a number on a screen.
Weird logic too. There's still 21m Bitcoin. Even if there was 10 billion XMR, there'd still only be 21 million BTC. Monero devalues Bitcoin in the same way an armoured truck devalues a G-Wagon. Apples and oranges.
Not if people use it. If people effectively use it to assign value to real world stuff, it effectively creates inflation for the market in general, making Bitcoin less valuable. More or less what happened with the US dollar and Bitcoin. They printed trillions of USD, but Bitcoin keeps its price trend as if nothing happened, it didn't double in price or anything. The Fed effectively pushed Bitcoin down by having people use it.
How can you call Monero "not inflationary" though when it's issuance can never be audited? I don't use Monero simply because sound money needs transparency at the base layer, or one day it'll be inflated away again just like the dollar is.
It's issuance *can* be audited because new Monero that is mined is briefly transparent as it enters so you can literally count them. Did you mean you can't *manually* audit it's circulating supply? You say this is an advantage, but in practice do you ever do it? How often have you manually audited Bitcoins circulating supply? I'm guessing never. Running a node is not the same thing. You're just relying on a node to do it all for you just like any Monero user would. But for what it's worth even Peter Todd, famous Bitcoin developer, doesn't consider Monero inflationary: "Surprisingly, Tail Emission Is Not Inflationary" https://petertodd.org/2022/surprisingly-tail-emission-is-not-inflationary "Monero has chosen to implement what they call tail emission...a fixed block reward does not lead to an abundant supply. In fact, due to the inevitability of lost coins, a fixed reward converges to a stable monetary supply that is neither inflationary nor deflationary." As for the dollar comparison. Major differences. Fiat issuance is centralized, unpredictable, and massive in comparison. All opposite of Monero.
I think many bitcoiners are so emotionally attached to BTC only they miss the point of view where privacy enthusiasts see monero Ike the do bitcoin as tools. And the best current tools we have right now. More often than not the cultish bitcoiners don't even transact all that much and hyper focused on NGU
Rather be a technologist than a fanatic. The toxic maxi viewpoint I just cannot understand. Shows lack of worldly perspective and stifles innovative thought. Ends up hurting the cause more than it helps. It is funny sometimes, but gets old and offputting rather quickly. Instead of seeing the good or potential in something, the immediate reaction is "shitcoin, discussion over".
Think of it as network effects of a common language of value rather than fanaticism. Technology is not scarce and can be changed when needed, even though it's hard to convince a large group to change the group can if it's needed. The UX of the English language is pretty crap. We could probably design a number of better languages that sound like it's written and it's rules are more consistent, and overall sounds nicer to speak, but that doesn't mean anyone will adopt it.
Two Qs for ya about Monero 1. Are there any Monero wallets in FDroid? (i couldn't find any). 2. How do you suggest getting coins without going through a centralized exchange? I looked into the protocol years ago and had to rely on cryptographers for the zero knowledge proofs because I don't grok that math (at least, not yet). I like the privacy claims, and would be happy to give it another go if it's usable.
2. Atomic swap on a dex from Bitcoin. Long term privacy might not be as good as lightning so don’t do illegal stuff until you understand that better than I do, which maybe you do idk
Monero has a tried and tested threat model and secure design. In Lightening, everyone always knows the recipient node. In Monero, no one knows anything. Like anything security related it's never perfect and vulns pop up but by design it is very good for privacy. The main way Monero transactions are unmasked is by sharing the same UTXO between CeX's, so if you must use a CeX, churn your coins (send to yourself to make a new UTXO). That's about it. DNM admins and vendors trust their freedom to this and the smart ones with good OPSEC have been operating for many years. I would love to see Lightning support the same level of privacy but it's still early for LN on the privacy front.
Yeah, I didn’t know the CeX unmasking thing. AFAIK, “no one knows anything” isn’t quite true. They don’t know anything yet haha. As of 2020 Monero was vulnerable save public address extract sees later (post quantum) attacks, whereas lightning as a sender may be safer since your data isn’t as available in the long term (it’s not on-chain). Maybe monero is post quantum now?
1. i recommend monero(.com) wallet vers by cake, for xmr only. get the apk on github https://github.com/cake-tech/cake_wallet/releases
2. check these out → https://stackwallet.com → https://localmonero.co/ → https://agoradesk.com/ → https://bisq.network/ → https://trocador.app/en/ → https://coincards.com/us/ → https://cakepay.com/ → https://anonshop.app/ → https://proxysto.re/en/index.html sorry, no time to edit 🙃
Another great one is https://exch.cx although they often get their XMR liquidity wiped out so timing is key. https://kycnot.me is a great resource too.
You might need the IzzyOnDroid repo (you should use it anyway) but here you go, I use this all the time for certain purchases via Tor markets: https://www.monerujo.io/
I use monerujo wallet ( https://github.com/m2049r/xmrwallet ). I bought some monero on robosats, and i hear bisq has decent liquidity.
1. All these wallets are on FDroid, can add their repository, or have the APKs available on their githubs. Also all open-source and self-custodial. https://cakewallet.com/ https://www.monerujo.io/ https://stackwallet.com/ Anonero ***Tor only http://anonero5wmhraxqsvzq2ncgptq6gq45qoto6fnkfwughfl4gbt44swad.onion/ Mysu ***Tor only http://rk63tc3isr7so7ubl6q7kdxzzws7a7t6s467lbtw2ru3cwy6zu6w4jad.onion/ 2. No-KYC p2p methods to acquire Monero Fiat -> Monero https://localmonero.co/ https://bisq.network/ https://learn.robosats.com/ Bitcoin -> Monero (atomic swaps) https://unstoppableswap.net/ https://code.samourai.io/wallet/comit-swaps-java/-/releases ***Still in beta [short tutorial: https://tube.monero.im/w/aBqiCQUARipWGi72FAPgY5] Crypto -> Monero (atomic swaps) https://basicswapdex.com/ Crypto -> Monero (***centralized instant swap aggregators, but no-KYC, no-javascript, and tor sites available) https://trocador.app/ https://orangefren.com/ https://intercambio.app/
OK you two, now you've gone and done it. I now have a monero markdown file in my personal notes. I've started putting links in there as I read them. If you see me add an XMR address, you'll know I've successfully got set up and am giving Monero its day in court.
Well, now I'm curious. You've had some time with it apparently. So, what is the judge's verdict from its day in court?
Oh dip, someone found an old post on nostr. Achievement unlocked. I feel like things fly by here so fast and then they hang around but [almost] nobody ever looks at them. Anyway, I got a wallet and put it in my profile and that's it. No tips. Haven't tried to trade anything for XMR. Pretty antitclimatic.
Makes sense. Nostr is pretty lightning dominated right now. Sent you a little something. There's a Nostr client being worked on right now for Monero that is Amethyst-based. Should be out sometime this week based on recent comments. https://bounties.monero.social/posts/94/42-349m-nostr-client-for-monero There's also a prototype web client: https://anarkio.codeberg.page/nostril/#/home/
running cake on calyx. so far so good.
You can install Obtanium from Github and use that to install other packages from Github. https://github.com/ImranR98/Obtainium/releases/tag/v1.0.0
I like Monero, it's good and gives what it promises. But I can't stop thinking it'll be easier to add an extra monero-like-privacy layer to BTC (say, on LN or not) than to move all the credibility and trajectory Bitcoin has to Monero. Take it as an opinion of someone who can only grasp the basics of the tech involved. I know it's way more complicated than what I just said.
makes two of us wont disregard completely yet, but only as a tool and not as savings
It’s not a reasonable end stage privacy tool either. Using it would require an on chain footprint on both Bitcoin and Monero, and monero scales even worse than Bitcoin does. People are free to do whatever they want but if people care about privacy and digital sound money they would understand the importance of a Bitcoin L2 solution.
This is true. Privacy will always be a an arms race. Even offchain methods, like LN, aren't fool-proof. Encrypted data can be actively recorded by adversaries and kept to break in the future. Practically speaking, as long as privacy tech keeps progressing and gives old blockchain data privacy for long enough spans, it doesn't really matter if it can be broken in distant futures as the users will be long gone and the relatively recent data will be on better privacy tech. The differences in scaling capabilities between Monero vs Bitcoin, or even Lightning, look the same from above when we're talking about 10s, 100s of millions or billions of users. None of them can get anywhere close to that. If Bitcoin, in it's greater popularity and userbase, has time to figure it out, then so does Monero even more so. There are solutions available *right now* that would easily scale both like MimbleWimble or DAGs. But that change is very unlikely to happen on Bitcoin...Monero on the other hand is more flexible with changes if/when need be. So it has that advantage.
All these Bitcoiners seem to think Monero is great too: "Monero is a very good privacy complement to Bitcoin" -Nick Szabo "Maybe you need a Monero" -Michael Saylor "For really strong privacy, Monero is much better" -Andreas Antonopoulos "There's a lot of advantages to using Monero" -Matt Odell "Monero is the only goddamn currency that's used!" -John McAfee "Monero will be a champion in that space and we'll have a Bitcoin-Monero duopoly" -Max Keiser "All fiat systems and all tokens outside of Bitcoin and monero (to my knowledge) have middlemen you cannot get rid of" -Adam Curry "I would say Monero is not a shitcoin. I think it's a very innovative and new research project that works." -Max Hillbrand "Monero; Just use it. Objectively it's better than Bitcoin [for privacy]...it's obvious" -Amir Taaki "Monero is closer to our hearts than whatever Bitcoin is turning into today" -Samourai Wallet "Bitcoin is the reserve currency. Hold it. Privacy coins are transactional privacy. Use them...Monero: getmonero.org" -Balaji "99% of cryptocurrencies are complete and total garbage, but even among the upper echeleon of real ones, Monero is in the top percentile, so it deserves our respect" -Paul Sztorc
Amir Taaki omg i have been searching for his name for a while now to find me an article i wanted to read back, i couldnt remember it THANK YOU
Great cryptographer
I like Monero. Although, not sure how much I trust it since its founder is an FBI asset now.
Here's a good article on those allegations. https://beincrypto.com/monero-founder-refutes-allegations-interpol-trace-funds/ However, #Monero was designed with this threat in mind. "The Monero Community today is decentralized, collaborative, and diverse. The continuous growth of Monero can be attributed to its Core Team, the Research Lab, workgroups, and volunteers. Most of them are anonymous, keeping true to their passion for privacy. Get to know some of the key people behind the number one privacy coin." https://www.xmrwallet.com/blog/key-people-behind-monero.html
Yes, I saw all that unfold. But I don't believe it. When you're cornered, most people flip. It wouldn't surprise me if he still consulted with the feds despite "refuting it" on a Twitter post. Even Elon lies in Twitter posts lol. Plus, the whole reason this happened was because he seemed to be a unscrupulous person, charged with fraud...
You have the right to your belief. I find comfort in the math and the fact that there are a lot of eyes on Monero's code. Any "privileged access" to Monero's code would found and be patched immediately. "The founder defended Monero’s cryptography, saying he could not assist the government with “privileged access.” He said, “I have no privileged access to Monero’s code, GitHub repo, website, Twitter account, DNS records, donated funds, or anything else.”"
For sure. I don't doubt the code, I doubt the person.
You're contradicting yourself. You're the one who mentioned not trusting Monero (code) because of a person. If you don't doubt the code, why does that person influence your trust of Monero? That doesn't make sense.
Has an unprecedented amount of insight into the chain and could assist the feds in deobfuscation techniques, etc. I still stand by what I said.
You don't understand Monero or why the math matters.
I suggest reading these: https://github.com/insight-decentralized-consensus-lab/post-quantum-monero https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/1495/what-privacy-issues-did-monero-have-and-still-has/1496
tldr: clear net monero protocol has a known open attack vectors
The last link is almost 8 years old...all issues have been long addressed with RingCT, enforced default ring size, etc with FCMP++ around the corner resolving any remaining issues with rings
I treat this the same way I do influencer accusations that Satoshi Nakamoto was actually a CIA agent. The code is open with lots of very smart privacy advocates eyes on it who develop it in a way that it is dev greed and sabotage proof. That's the beautiful thing about cryptography, math doesn't rely on trust or lie.
how many nodes are running? mining?
https://monero.fail/map https://bitnodes.io/
the second one is about Bitcoin not monero
Yes, I know, I just included for comparison
If you mean Fluffy, he is not the founder/creator of Monero...not that it really matters, but what makes you think he is involved with the FBI? Not to mention the code is open source. It's the third largest crypto project in terms of developers and eyes on the code just behind Bitcoin and Ethereum.
I'm not convinced that it is very private if you're just swapping in and out of things that aren't at all private (most people are). That's always been my problem with it. It isn't a good store of value, so it doesn't incentivize people to stay in it fully. The on and off ramp data is quite telling, as meta data usually is. That's really where I think Bitcoin privacy issues mostly exist anyway (on and off ramps). Fixing that, in my opinion, leaves little reason to use Monero given it's economic design and self-induced security limitations on the network. I do support the mission though. Frankly, this technology is still relatively young and the top players (just Bitcoin and Monero in my opinion) can make each other better if we cooperate and improve. I'd call myself a Monero fan overall, and I'm certainly in the Bitcoin Maxi camp.
You missed off "If I wanted to buy shitloads of crack online, fuck using btc, Monero is the better tool for the job" - inpc
https://i.nostr.build/nvU6bl6SKRAUPgVg.jpg
GM Ava! Monero is a shitcoin 🥹
Lol. Lu Derek, but nope. nostr:nevent1qqs9fvsduuz8g7t52cl4sppprmqzj4alhrjpz5gwmjgtl3z2rcugedgpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmqzyp8t3qcs666wm9wx6e4rjkea8n64nwzl4my0w6ga4l2qt2fwq4wk6qcyqqqqqqgskarm5 Here's another one I missed :) https://i.nostr.build/QWrGOaUH6RX7zXdW.png
Horses for courses…. Say you wanted to buy a tank and some phat armour penetrating missiles for the garden but your name isn’t Benjamin Netanyahu, how would you go about it?
The lightning network doesn’t work at Chuck E Cheese. Ohhh burrrn roasted 🔥
I listen and value argumentations and facts, I dont trust bitcoin maxis and, in the end, dont trust out of contex quotes of bitcoin maxis.
Who is telling anyone to trust anything because of quotes? We can go in circles argumentation and facts all day, but you just seem to have a massive Monero chip on your shoulder. Please show us the full quotes to show how they are "out of context". You can't because they're not.
Suppose my lack of conviction towards Monero comes from this: "bitcoin is an awesome store of value, but it needs a 2nd layer for greater privacy and to solve the fungibility problem. lightning is maturing. cashu is also maturing. monero solves the spend issue now with privacy baked in on a protocol level. it is currency. it's meant to be spent." Lightning may be maturing, but we're zapping sats on Nostr and recently made purchases using Lightning as well. Monero may be spendable now, and may indeed solve the scalability of microTXing now but it doesn't seem to be as widespread in terms of adoption. What resources would you suggest looking at? I guess my question then becomes, what does monero solve that bitcoin cannot solve with layers(even if it takes a while)?
Layers will always have different trade offs and use cases from L1s. None are full replacements. Simple example: Cashu/ecash: ✅Great privacy, ❌custodial Liquid: ➖Modest privacy, ❌custodial Lightning: ➖Modest privacy, ✅self-custodial Monero: ✅Great privacy, ✅self-custodial And in reality, the way 95% of users use Lightning, with custodians and LSPs, they have almost no privacy. Look at the zaps you're talking about and wallet downloads. All WoS, Alby, etc. All because it's sovereign UX complexity and annoyances. While *onchain* Bitcoin adoption dwarfs Monero, that doesn't translate to Lightning. Most merchants accept on-chain Bitcoin, not necessarily Lightning, Liquid, Ecash. I think Monero adoption is comparable to Lightning and in many cases and markets it actually has more adoption. In DNMs, there is no LN adoption (because its lesser privacy and complex sovereign UX). It's predominantly Bitcoin and Monero, with Monero specifically preferred, and rapidly rising in all markets. One of the top 3 only accepts Monero, and the other two prefer Monero. A few interesting facts: -Monero has the #1 trade volume on Bisq by far, Bitcoins largest DEX, above fiat currencies or any other crypto -Monero is the preferred and rising star of darknet market currency. The birthplace of Bitcoin. -Samourai Wallet, one of the largest Bitcoin coinjoin projects, introduced Monero atomic swaps recently. -Most FOSS privacy projects and businesses accept payment in Monero. Some purchases and donations largely come from Monero. (Tor, IVPN, Mullvad, SimpleLogin, AnonAddy, SimpleX, Molly, GrapheneOS, Silent Link, CoinCards, ShopInBit, etc) -Most prominent privacy educators and content creators accept Monero donations. Some exclusively (Seth For Privacy, Gabriel Custodiet, Mental Outlaw, The Hated One, Rafael LaVerde, Naomi Brockwell, Surveillance Report, Rehrar, Sam Bent, Juraj Bednar, etc) -Ethereum developers are developing atomic swaps with Monero -BCH just finished a Monero atomic swap -DarkFi is merge mining with Monero -Tor implemented a PoW algorithm to help against DDOS based off a similar mining algorithm to Moneros
Monero‘s privacy is nice but its biggest feature is to not have ordinals 😏
I've always admired your ability to speak your mind without being a jerk. Always been a weakness of mine, even when unintended. Bitcoin is a tool. A very useful tool. Probably one of the best (atm) tools. But I've been coding a very long time. Nothing avoids being replaced. There is no perfect software. The values and philosophy behind Bitcoin is what really matters to me. Any system build on those fundamentals is something I can live with. Privacy is an off-putting subject to me. The fact that I have to neuter my Internet connection and constantly play the "why the fuck doesn't this work" game with VPNs in order to keep some asshole online from attempting to fix me was enough I questioned my involvement in Nostr at all. I don't give a crap about Google knowing I like pimento cheese, or Amazon knowing I have an unhealthy addiction to t-shirts. I have no issue with Microsoft collecting data about my PC. I expect these things, and I use the conveniences granted by that data collection (yes, if I use an ad supported service, I would just assume the ads be relevant). What I don't like is trying to use fundamentally worse software (SimpleX, Firefox, etc) *full time* for every single conversation I have with someone. I don't pay $1200 for a phone to reduce it to the feature set and convenience of a phone I bought 15 years ago. Then I scratch beneath the surface and find out the majority of these projects are funded by the same assholes I thought I was escaping. There is toxic maximalism on a lot of subjects. People telling other people what they should or should not do without knowing the details of their complicated lives, their threat profiles, their needs... It all reeks of arrogance and hive mind behavior. It's not exclusive to Nostr, nor is Nostr especially bad in that regard. It's the whole Internet. Thank you for being the person who shares the tools and benefits of using them so people can be informed, without making people feel stupid or small when they don't go as far as you do. It's one of your super powers, and why I always enjoy reading your posts. </end of unnecessary wall of text>
That's a lot to unwrap. The most important thing, I think, is to realise that the Googles and Metas are not interested in *your* interests for social reasons, like people would be. They are interested because it gives them asymmetric power over a massive amount of people without them realising it. To alter the behaviour of the so-called masses and the choices they make, even by a tiny fraction, is massively valuable to the companies themselves, but to state actors as well. And the way they get that power is by collecting vast amounts of user data accross the web. And making it incrementally harder to opt-out. That exact phrase "I don't care if X platform gets my data" is the product of a massive campaign against privacy, launched by Meta itself (back then called facebook), if I'm not mistaken. If the personal loss of privacy doesn't trigger any feelings of disgust for you, I encourage you to think about the issue societally. Normalised data collection and KYC practices erode society at a deep level. It's a self-growing feedback loop of fear and polarisation. Do you want to support that or could you start being more mindful about it personally? Something to consider.
I didn’t explain it all in this post. I’m a compartmentalizer. I choose what to leave in the open, for convenience, and what to hide. I also believe that those who take their privacy much more seriously are already under extra scrutiny from the fed. I’m aware of the sociological concept that individuals are rather unpredictable, but large masses are very predictable. I’m not underestimating the influence of large companies data collection efforts. I’m also not concerned with them knowing what flavors I like. I have the tools, and I know at a decent level how to use them. When I want to keep something private, I run a vpn, use a Firefox instance with privacy badger, ublock, and all the Mozilla spyware turned off. I’ve got tor browser setup if it’s that serious, and to test my relay’s onion service. That’s my personal choice, and it’s informed, suited to my threat profile, and works for me.
It sounds like you understand privacy quite well. That is, the ability to reveal selectively. I always get triggered by that "I don't care if they collect my data" rhetoric tho.
@nobody thank you. it means a lot 🫂. i try my best to meet people where they are with as accurate of data as i can to help them make informed decisions for themselves on whether or not it make sense for them to stay there. potential and probable consequences are indiscriminate, but like you pointed out, there is no one-size-fits-all guide to privacy, only recommended opsec based on desired outcomes and threat models.
That's been the weakness I found in privacy education spaces and communities. When a friend wants to learn, I link them resources to start and read but I have to also give them with a caveat: everyone's threat model is different. It's good to know what tools are available, basic OPSEC, and use as needed depending where your current activities fall on the privacy spectrum. I also warn them of the maximalists who will welcome a complete noob normie with "Alright sell your PC, you're gonna use TailsOS as a daily driver now and your phone will have no apps." It turns them off. A lot of advice is too broad and there's now enough about threat modeling (though it's getting better). Gotta meet people where they are and sometimes, improvement will look different based on the subjects. For some, running everything self hosted and not using any social media is a win. For others, simply tweaking some privacy settings and being aware they can turn off things like Location services and Bluetooth when not in use, is also a win. Baby steps, so it's a more digestible step in the right direction and way of thinking. As for me, like you, I'm also a compartmentalizer. I've tried many setups obsessively, reinstalled my phone and machine OS a dozen times in the past years, and compartmentalizing activities and identities is the only way that keeps me sane. In control of what I share and aware of data collection while keeping the private private and keeping a foot in that space to keep up with tools to enable privacy.
I agree and I'm all for practical solutions to practical problems, but that doesn't detract from the passion I feel for this most elegant of applied maths. There's something profound about it, that brings me closer to God. nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzqn4csvgddd8djhrdv63etv7nea2ehp06aj8hdyw6l4q94yhq2htdqyghwumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnhd9hx2tcprdmhxue69uhhg6r9vehhyetnwshxummnw3erztnrdakj7qpqxscemsyfjhs2w33hsfl3akkdx5agcfrw8ph0ret67h6c03g9r04s9jggrm
Just don't get caught holding the bag. I don't currently spend much bitcoin so I don't really have a horse in the race but if money trends towards one, I hope a better way to spend my money privately arises. https://image.nostr.build/3cfec23fe3fca6d6452ae7e94a0267ee67207b59b591bf008063c8fb649e4060.jpg
Disagree. - Money wants to be one, so a multi coin world is very unlikely - exchanges from BTC to XMR are single points of failures - Lightning gives you privacy and plausible deniability, unlike Montero - Trying to be ASIC resistant is a big bet, that might blow up catastrophically, and requires centralization of protocol development - with the same level of txs of Bitcpin, running a Monero node is way more costly here is a great resource https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1PRKKlI-Jo
- A multi coin world literally exists right now, the last 15 years, and multi fiat currency for hundreds to thousands of years . Trending to one is only true in a perfect world if they are all functionally the same and they are not. - You can say this for getting any crypto in general including Bitcoin (most users have to swap fiat). Binance, largest exchange in the world, delisted Monero and it's still around and doing fine. Atomic swaps, DEXs, and p2p exist and UX gets better every year. - With lightning you must run your own node to gain any privacy benefits, offers no receiver privacy anyway, vulnerable to probing, leaks data when closing/opening channels. Vast majority use LN with an LSP or custodian anyway = much weaker privacy. Ironically unannounced channels, the most private way to use Lightning, offers no plausible deniability. For your last two points... -ASICs can't match the ubiquity and accessibility of CPU mining which is more conducive to decentralization. No large capital investment required. -Ostensibly harder to attack, but if successful, much harder to deploy new ASICs to fight back since they're in such short supply -Large concentrated mining farms are easy to co-opt and regulate for governments. -Heat, noise, and energy draw make ASIC mining very obvious -Everyone knows what you're doing/going to do with that ASIC miner you bought -Over half the hashpower now requires KYC -No p2pool. Stratumv2 helps but isn't sufficient. Large pool operators control payout. -Targeted mining censorship possible Good video though "Police raid a concealed #Bitcoin mining operation, initially mistaking it for an illegal marijuana farm due to the heat signature" https://twitter.com/BitcoinNewsCom/status/1721359382745874489
1. yes, but it's just an unstable equilibrium that can only be sustained because of: a. cohercive force b. lack of information The tendency is to gravitate towards one form of money (like it was during the old gold standard) 2. you have some good points about technical shortcomings of lightning and mining, for sure, they are not perfect. However, I think you miss the bigger picture: Bitcoin is a better product. We can argue all day about technical details, but they only interest us and some other nerds on the internet, but this day and age, people want to save. Monero is a shittier saving technology, which makes it a worst form of money, by a factor of idk 10x. All it's improvements are very marginal, and nothing compared to this big drawback.
1. Maybe so, but the cost (in time, effort, and money) of swapping currencies is now much smaller. It's not as big of a deal and continues getting easier so I imagine the "one form of money" thing carries less weight than it did in the past even if generally true. Compare swapping digital crypto online VS swapping precious metals/paper money irl. Take for example two businesses except; One accepts Bitcoin-only. The other accepts everything and later swaps what they won't need for awhile to Bitcoin. The second business has a much larger pool of customers and will likely do better, all things equal, even if they prefer Bitcoin. a. yes, coercive force plays a big role in fiat, but gold is not exactly convenient for frequently settling debts in a global economy either. Paper money was bound to happen in some form instead of settling in gold for every transaction (although crypto changes that now) b. There is always a lack of information 2. Not sure in what way Bitcoin is a better product unless you are specific about what that is. Better SoV? Maybe, time will see if it continues to hold true. Better MoE/currency? Not so much. Costly to transact, not private, and and weakly fungible. Doesn't seem as if that is going to change soon (if ever) considering the community not liking upgrades and wanting to ossify. The technical details don't have to be of interest to users for their natural consequences to emerge and affect them. Nothing stop them from saving in Bitcoin and using something else as a currency either. https://image.nostr.build/ccf181ed168942446d16535fa01942fcb9f471b7b689c9d9f8d12839df0b629c.jpg
Exactly. Except I'd like to suggest one small correction: A multi coin world is about as likely as a multi internet world, with the added influence of financial incentives driving out any possibility of a separate coexisting internet. So it's not just "very unlikely"; in the long run, it's an absolute impossibility. Another great resource for this is "Human Action" by Ludwig von Mises. And "The Bitcoin Standard" by Saifedean Ammous, of course.
Great post. Theres nothing wrong with stacking monero either. I stack both. and nothing else.
Atomic swaps recommendations in May 2024?
Nothing that I know of but pokkst is the guy to ask. I can see what he has to say.
thank you, yeah things move fast out in internet land,
i just dont get how you can believe in bitcoin and its values and hate monero. monero and bitcoin would be best friends, with bitcoin getting the shine monero never wants an etf, never lures with "riches", and respects privacy its like a guitar player hating the bassist can we not be grown ups and root for something else orange? you dont even need to buy any....
You cannot put the same savings in both Bitcoin & Monero. They are mutually exclusive networks. You can put the same savings into Bitcoin & have it on a privacy layer built on top of Bitcoin. This, plus Monero's higher inflation rate & the larger scaling challenges, is why it doesn't make much sense to hold Monero at all. It's not about religious devotion. It's about the unforgiving nature of monetary network effects.
Become a monero dev then, follow what you want to build
Money is “winner take most” and the best money gains disproportionately. I’m expecting Monero to lose usage over time because bitcoin is the better store of value. This reduces monero’s privacy because you have a smaller group to hide in. This is why I believe we have no choice but to build our privacy into Bitcoin’s L2s like Lightning and federated ecash.
You know ecash wouldnt be one unified anonymity set right? It would be a fracturing. Opposite effect of what you want. Each mint would have it's own separate anon set. and regarding on chain bitcoin small dark pool >>> large transparent pool how large a group is irrelevant for anonymity if it's users can be picked out thru KYC or weaker pseudonymity of non-coinjoiners (majority of users)
Ecash seems like a single anonymity set because you can freely transfer in and out of mints using Lightning. i.e make a deposit to one mint, then transfer to one or more other mints. If sats can seamlessly and privately flow throughout all mints then it appears to me that they share the larger anonymity set. Unless I’m missing something, it seems receiving ecash would be the same as receiving monero.
Tokens are unique to each mint. Every time you leave a mint over lightning you reveal amount + destination to the original mint (a potential point of de-anonymization/reduced anonymity). You're also narrowing down your anon set the larger value of tokens you hold (ecash tokens have "buckets" of 1,2,4,8,16, 32...etc, increasingly fewer denominations exist the larger the bucket)
I read somewhere that you can just give the ecash token to a second mint and they can fetch the amount from the first mint. In this way you could move funds between mints, and even spread funds around, without revealing your identity or amount held.
Not sure how you could do that without revealing amounts to the 2nd mint because they'll know the amount they receive in lightning from the 1st mint (and know it's from the 1st mint since they're redeeming it's token), and the 1st mint will know the amount they're sending to the 2nd mint even if they're not colluding. And it still wouldn't solve the reduced anon set from "larger bucket" ecash holders unless you spread funds around like you said or never send/receive larger payments.Still better anonymity and privacy than Bitcoin, but coming back to my original point...ecash doesn't necessarily have a larger group to hide in just because it is ecash. I was kind of surprised the other day to find out that mints can tie IP addresses to specific tokens (maybe that should've been obvious), so I like what Mutiny is doing with Harbor running everything behind Tor
Yes, the second mint would know how much they’re receiving but not how much you have in total. The first mint would know how much they’re sending but wouldn’t know who’s sending it. Sounds like tor is crucial for this to stay private and also important to transact in relatively small amounts. I thought this was helpful: https://docs.cashu.space/faq
This is only with fedimint and not cashu (as of right now; they keep open the option of building federated mints but it is not currently planned).
Bitcoin is not a better long term store of value than Monero. This is actually a much more interesting one than most arguments on this topic so I'll go in depth as to why. In game theory, there's a problem called tragedy of the commons, and within that concept there's the idea of the "free rider", I don't know how in depth you dive into game theory stuff but you should understand it intimately because all networks involving multiple agents are pure game theory and you can't understand peer to peer networks without it. Anyway, in Bitcoin, there's a cost to maintaining the network, without which a sat has no value whatsoever. This cost is entirely borne by those transacting in it, ultimately *the recipients* of it (just like how business taxes are borne ultimately by the clients of said business), and in this game, hodlers are free riders. This is, of course, assuming a capped supply of just under 21 million coins. And so, the incentive pressure is for everyone to become hodlers, you get to store your value at the expense of more frequent users, and the logical conclusion of course being that very few people transact and those that do pay for maintaining the security on behalf of those who don't. The only possible outcome of such a scheme is that nobody transacts, miners don't get paid, they quit, security drops and the network, and therefore your holdings, lose value. This is, of course, entirely a consequence of the hard cap, and Monero on the other hand with it's tail emission means that hodlers pay through debasement of their holdings for their share of the security of the network that gives their coins value, and since it's debasement, they pay in proportion to the value they get from the network. In the long term, Monero is the better store of value counterintuitively precisely due to the tail emission, the thing that is cited as the reason it is inferior as such. As far as the anonymity set (reducing Monero's privacy because you have a smaller group to hide in) this is not really a problem because of the fixed ring size, but it can be exploited in certain ways, but with full chain membership proofs which are Coming Soon™ to Monero, it will no longer be an issue.
Bitcoin doesn’t need monetary debasement to be a better store of value. Even if everyone were a hodler, there would still be transactions because hodlers need to eat too. (And businesses would need to buy supplies and pay workers. Etc.) It strikes me as this line of thinking is looking to solve a problem that doesn’t yet exist. The mining industry is growing nicely and bitcoin is already the best long term store of value in the way it has protected people’s saving compared to everything else.
You don't understand clearly what I've told you. This is a system of incentives, a "game" in the parlance of game theory. The outcomes are very much predictable, I'm not guessing here or making an argument on behalf of something or against something, I'm only making an educated observation. You can take what I've said and try to understand it deeper, or you can default to defending something you're emotionally attached to, but the incentives are the incentives and the outcomes are predictable.
@mister_monster I blocked the OP long ago. Can't remember why, but I don't block unless there is a very, very good reason. Not saying you should, just letting you know this convo may be an exercise in futility.
Not sure what world you’re living on. In my timeline, we’ve watched monero continuously decline to irrelevance. I get why you’re upset. Every year fewer and fewer people care.
Lol oh I see call me upset to see if you can get a rise out of me. Honest people don't resort to childish tactics, they approach about topics from a place of veracity and attempt to delve into them with genuine curiosity. There isn't a serious bitcoiner that doesn't accept Monero.
Sure, we were all were interested in it when it started. But we don’t care anymore. I’m sure you’ll figure it out eventually too. Good luck!
Shopinbit and other real businesses wrote on X that Monero is used as payment more than Bitcoin + Bitcoin Lightning Network
That could be. It’s Gresham’s Law. People spend their worse monies first and hoard their best money. It’s the reason that, if I have both fiat and BTC, I prefer to spend fiat first. You always keep the money that preserves your purchasing power the best.
Or maybe because it's too expensive to use and to make a private transaction.. so they use it like a digital collectible as Saylor suggest
Just zapped you 42 sats. That seemed pretty fast and inexpensive to use. And lightning is fairly private for senders.
Thanks. Do you have your btcln node? Because in some countries custodial btcln wallets stopped to work https://bitcoinnews.com/legal/wallet-of-satoshi-quits-us-market/ A monero fullnode selfhosted is easier to mantain
Are you not aware of the free market? Are you not aware that Monero (where accepted) is usually #1?
Where is this magical bitcoin privacy layer, that I can use today, that doesn't sacrifice self-custody or permissionless transactions? (removing intermediaries - the core value prop of bitcoin)
Do you write checks from your savings account? Monero's current inflation rate is lower than that of bitcoin. Check for yourself if you don't believe me. The scaling challenges that Bitcoin faces, Monero mostly resolves. I say mostly because I'm a firm believer that in order to completely solve them you need the same security guarantees that bitcoin and Monero offer without the necessity to save all historical data. The dynamic block size though does a great deal to alleviate it. People actually spend Monero. Network effects in the long term are in it's favor if your goal is peer to peer digital cash.
No monero's scaling problems are much worse than bitcoin's because of the txn size, block size, cost of full validation, & the lack of a layered approach. Combine that with the need go battle bitcoin's multiple economic & social network effects & monero is a really bad bet.
Lack of a layered approach? What does that mean? What's the cost of full validation? You mean syncing the chain? What's wrong with the transaction size, and what is the Monero block size? Monero has it's own network effects, with blow and hookers.
Broadcast networks don't scale. Bigger txns mean the computational load, data transfer, & storage costs of securing the network are higher per txn. As all of those grow (if the block size isn't small & limited) mining becomes more of a race than a fair lottery. In a lottery, winning is random based on % of contribution. In a race, those with more resources always win.
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Monero undergoing a conversion into a Layer-2 obfuscation protocol would solve so many issues. If anyone can figure out how to make a Liquid federation able to sign for the on-chain multi-sig while staying anonymous, it's Monero developers. The downside of this is that XMR would have to go to zero. If current XMR stake was sold to the federation owners for proportional percentage of the fees generated by the new federation, that's probably the fairest way to do it. There's no pulling it off without someone getting screwed though. Cost of making a failing investment.
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BTC never meant to be "store of value" as it's main function, it supposed to be p2p payment, which it failed and became money printing machine for early holders and gambling for rest of the world. Get better knowledge in finances in general and will find better wways to "store" your wealth.
