I won't lie, I'm at the point where I think I'm just DONE trying to get into #Bitcoin, #Monero or any other coin.
I love the technology. I think it's phenomenal, it presents some truly incredible future possibilities. I also do think it has the potential to free people from the fiat scam. I wouldn't be on Nostr and continually trying to find ways to get into this space if I didn't believe in it.
However, its number one weakness is KYC/AML. Even to buy small amounts, you have to upload sensitive documents to an exchange with some stupid selfie, and you have absolutely no way of verifying that they are doing their absolute best guarding that data even if I were comfortable with them having it (I'm not). It's not even the concern of them tying my identity to my Bitcoin (though that is still problematic), I just don't have any intentions of trusting a CEX with my sensitive data, I am aware of no-KYC DEXes and Bitcoin ATMs. Neither of them work without major sacrifice, risk or geographic issues.
With DEXes, you're risking your money trading with sellers that might not honor the deal. Sure, you usually have escrows, but then you're trusting that DEX. Ignoring that issue for a moment, whatever DEXes I'm on have offers that usually demand either cash by mail or credit card, ans some of them actually run KYC checks of their own. Cash by mail is a huge risk in this day and age, and I certainly have no plans to send a credit card number to a total stranger (and that's assuming one has a credit card; I don't). Then, once again, ignoring that issue brings up another one: the minimum trade amount. Nine times out of ten, any offers I see on a DEX set like a $150 minimum. Problem is, for people like me who just want to start slowly, to test the waters, this is problematic as well. Plus, it goes back to the high potential for scams, and risking $150 that I'm locking away is not a good risk to take, particularly when you're in a tight financial spot like I am.
Then, you have Bitcoin ATMs. Provided you can find one (only one in my area and not in the best town), you're going to spend truly exorbitant amounts on their fees. The one near me charges 20%. If I wanted to start with, say, $50 to start stacking, they'd take $10 of that. Plus, unlike other industries, I've found that it's very difficult to find reviews on these companies and as such, I have no idea how reputable the company is.
At the end of the day, I seriously don't know how y'all do it. Are you all just complying with the absurd KYC regulations or what? Because every other method I've tried (and believe me, I've tried so much) has fallen through in spectacular fashion. How can Bitcoin truly become the replacement I believe it can be, if we all have to either go along with draconian regulations or make a big financial risk?
Please help me understand, because I really am at the point where I'm thinking I'm done trying.
#asknostr #KYC
Great points. Did you try Bisq?
Yes, it was one of the first DEXes I tried. Unfortunately, it falls prey to the same issues I mentioned, at least in my own experience.
That's a pity. I know Bisq v2 is integrating lightning, maybe that will help. I think there needs to be a web of trust. But this is quite hard when many of the people and influencers in the space are hard to trust. I have met some people from Bisq back in the day, and they were trust worthy imho, but you never know. Ultimately gov wants KYC everywhere, and that's where we're heading. So even fiat will have the same problem. Great insights, though, thanks!
You could earn it. Sell for bitcoin or get paid in bitcoin. Getting paid still doxes you but selling stuff may not.
I have nothing to sell and living in a rural small town is unlikely going to give me any room to ask for payment in it, unfortunately.
Online?
Basically means I'd be going back to freelancing which never made me much lol
You don’t need a full time bitcoin income. You said it yourself you wanted to start slow.
I do but I don't have the time to spare on freelancing again. In the midst of a career change while struggling to find work here that will help me grow in that career.
Meh. I'm stacking sats any way I can right now. DGAF about KYC. I don't hold enough for "them" to care about how much I hold. (yet.)
If you have a SSN and a bank account and a driver's loicense, you're already boned. Go get you some btc while it's cheap instead of regretting not having any in the future.
KYC won't matter if your move it to cold storage and keep your dang mouth shut.
Like I said, it's not really the government that concerns me in this instance, it's the exchanges. I don't trust them with that kind of info and it's a huge pain to sort if there's a data breach.
Your info is already out there. Who cares?
Its not, though. I take great care to keep my info safe. I'm a ghost to people search sites. I didn't even slightly show up in the recent data breach with all the SSNs listed.
You are not a ghost to banks and the gubment.
Good for keeping that info secure, but, your "security" us putting you at higher risk for the further. I don't find that to be sensible.
No, I know. I'm not referring to the government, I just don't have the time or money to worry about data breaches. Messing with government bureaucracy is a time-consuming nightmare and the last thing I need is to take a month working with the SS office or whatever if there's a data breach leading to identity theft.
You have no control over that anyway, really, so... My unsolicited advice is to just buy BTC and don't worry about it.
I do if I keep my info safe or, at the very least, strongly restrict what companies have access to it. It just isn't a worthwhile risk for me at this point in my life.
What makes your bank and your government more trust worthy than an exchange?
or Robosats. plenty of options of payment. it's not easy to go kyc free but it is possible. i've used robosats a lot of times and it was a great experience
I *think* I looked into Robosats already but I might be getting it confused with the hundred other DEX options I looked into haha
Try nostr:nprofile1qqsd54k9fd0xwjwkttgr3svkg7reftu5una95nhacg95nxq7fmzkdscpr9mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuumwdae8gtnnda3kjctv9u7fjrpv if it works in your area.
Never heard of it but I'll make note of it, thanks.
nostr:nprofile1qqs238xfxyh395snmlhpx9ts9set77y8p5vupk0hp5yq9xfrmxkca9cpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7qgawaehxw309ahx7um5wghxy6t5vdhkjmn9wgh8xmmrd9skctc7qcadf there are always tradeoffs in life. The ATMs are expensive because the market values that set of trade-offs.
I understand the higher rates but it's a bit excessive IMO. Even so, it's definitely not an option for me at this point in my life.
Hey mate! Join a local bitcoin meetup in the nearest city… not sure how far out you live, but if you are within a couple hours drive of a major town there are probably a couple Bitcoiners having a meetup of some sort there. Buying Peer to Peer is the ideal scenario and even if you only go into town once per month that strategy should work.
Bisq is a great option since you can use Zelle with zero fees and its direct P2P protected by escrow… you can buy small amounts for under 5% of market spot rate any day and if you are patient and post as offer you can usually get someone to sell for under 2%…
Another option is to continue building your reputation here on Nostr and find someone who is living on a Bitcoin standard / is spending monthly and needs cash constantly… that would allow you to buy regularly from a trusted contact once you establish it
I appreciate the advice. I don't drive and don't know anyone in person who is into any form of crypto, so it'd be tough to go to a meet. Nonetheless, I will keep an eye out to see if the nearest city has any events to consider.
As for Bisq, I tried AgoraDesk first but then tried Bisq when AgoraDesk closed. Similar issues, unfortunately.
As for the building contacts part, that might be a consideration, but it will take time and I'm quite sporadic on social media right now haha. Still, I don't have any plans to leave Nostr so it could happen one day, who knows?
Thanks again, going to bookmark this note for later!
It sounds like a P2P contact or Bisq is your ideal solution… in Bisq you can post a Sell offer in any amount you want and choose Zelle as the method of payment… you can choose a 0% market rate or any rate you want and simply wait for the offer to be accepted by someone… it really is a fantastic DEX, far superior to other options imho… if you want help walking through it I am happy to jump on a call with you and walk you through how to use it and tricks I’ve learned in dealing with common issues
Unfortunately, if you want to do anything meaningful in this world, it requires providing documentation.
Your fear is justified, but also, in my opinion, a bit exaggerated.
I'd be more concerned about stacking as much #Bitcoin as I can, before the rest of the world wakes up.
The wealthiest people out there have to provide KYC info, to do their thing.
Not to be offensive, but I doubt that your data is more valuable than theirs.
Just my 2 sats...
The wealthy have the time and money to take care of things if their data is stolen. Best I can do is keep my info safe, because I have neither the time and money.
Time running out is what worries me and frustrates me about this issue.
So for small amounts you can try Lighting with your own Node . If am I right you don’t need any KYC etc. Example can be: Zeus Wallet etc . Take me with reserve and and ask more people here and watch some videos 👍
Bookmarking this, I had no idea. I'll definitely look into that and see if it's something I could do. I was researching mining XMR but learned it would be very unlikely for me to get much from it, so I'm a bit discouraged oj that front but hey, maybe this one will work 👍
I think you are getting in your own way by lettering perfect be the enemy of done. I appreciate you are looking for non kyc but by not holding any you are not bettering your situation.
I can't afford any major risks to my finances or time at this point in my life, which is my concern here. It's not about being a ghost to the government, I just can't afford risks right now (and believe me, that's just as frustrating for me as I'm sure it is for all of you).
I know how you feel, I ended up deciding that the threat of inflation is much more risky to my future than telling my govt which assets I hold. I don’t know which nation-state you live in so I can’t guide you fully. I will say I have seen my govt turn off bank accounts and even if they knew wherever I was they still can’t stop it.
I can be taxed, jailed, and made an example of, but they cannot have my Bitcoin unless I let them. The alternative is I need to be making ~15% extra a year to deal with inflation
I live in the US but again, not really too worried about the government, I just don't trust exchanges. If there's a data breach and someone tries to steal my identity, that seizes time and money I really can't afford to risk at this time in my life.
Maybe things will be different by the time I can afford that kind of risk, no idea.
Better find a meet up then. I hope that you find some compromise that leads to your best outcome
Hopefully I will, because I don't *want* to give up but it's difficult not to with all of those obstacles hah
If you want to DM me and I can help walk you through any questions you have about Bisq, the basics of buying P2P, self custody, etc 🫡
Many thanks, I will try to do that sometime in the next day or two if I can. Thanks again!
No worries! Happy to help… I know how you feel. It’s frustrating when you first start out, it seems really complicated and a bit overwhelming… but you just need a single contact who is willing to spend some time to help show you the ropes and you’ll be on your way 🫡
cex that don't ask for documents (pocketbitcoin in europe).p2p (bisq, hodlhodl, robosats). exchange cash in local community events. find a trusted dealer which you can send cash via mail. it's all about trade offs
I'm in the States, which is why this is such a nightmare to work through haha. Tried those DEXes but they were where I found the issues I listed in my original note. No local Bitcoiners or meets that I know of; that's the one disadvantage of living in a rural small town. 😩
to me, sounds like you have massively underestimated how much KYC/AML there is on you just for being born. your fingerprints, eyes, gait and almost everything else is probably out there and very easy to obtain. far bigger risk storing time & energy in fiat over bitcoin
financially, if limited, you should still be able to stack some moveable UTXO's before they get too expensive. granted, there may be sacrifice involved.
non KYC sats are possible, with a high premium, like small units of gold.
I should have been clearer with my concerns. I'm not worried about the government knowing what I'm doing. I may hate tax and despise how big the federal government is, but I'm not interested in being an outlaw.
My issue with KYC lies with the exchanges. Seems like there are 5 data breaches a day, these exchanges are high-value targets, and I do not have the time or money to be able to afford the risk of a data breach with my SSN, ID and likeness of my face. As we all know, federal bureaucracy is a sluggish nightmare and that's about the last thing I need on my plate right now.
Agreed, but I think this is where we differ. The trade is owning more bitcoin vs. "Seems like there are 5 data breaches a day, these exchanges are high-value targets, and I do not have the time or money to be able to afford the risk of a data breach with my SSN, ID and likeness of my face"
I don't think the tradeoff is close. You could have no or small amount of bitcoin and have less risk of the quoted above, or you could have more bitcoin and slightly more risk of the quoted above. Both seem very risky KYC situations, but one situation you have more bitcoin which seems to de-risk substantially most aspects of life. IMO
The main thing I'm trying to say here is this: you guys all believe in Bitcoin with a do-or-die sentiment. That's awesome! I wish I could be at that point. However, for those of us who think it could be good but want to take things slower, these obstacles are 10x higher. That's the point I'm making. It's not as simple and perfect as some people claim it is.
Sure, I could just say "screw it" and dive in head first but at this point in my life, I've got a lot riding on my career change, building financial stability and so forth. I can't afford big risks to my finances OR my time, so that makes it exceptionally difficult for me since I have to find complicated solutions in this situation.
I hear ya brother, well said.
That’s the price to pay for now. Depends on how you value your privacy. It’s gonna get lower and easier with time.
Bisq (buy/sell, p2p, Bitcoin, Monero, https://bisq.network/)
Haveno (buy/sell, p2p, Monero, https://haveno-reto.com/)
Robosats (buy/sell, p2p, Bitcoin, https://learn.robosats.com/)
Hodlhodl (buy/sell, p2p, Bitcoin, https://hodlhodl.com/)
@lnp2pbot Telegram channel (buy/sell, p2p, Bitcoin, https://t.me/lnp2pBot)
Peach Bitcoin (buy/sell, p2p, Bitcoin, https://peachbitcoin.com/)
LocalCoinSwap (buy/sell, crypto, https://localcoinswap.com/)
Local Meetups (buy/sell, Bitcoin, Monero, cash, https://www.meetup.com/topics/bitcoin/)
Azteco vouchers (buy, Bitcoin, http://azte.co)
Bitcoin ATMs (http://www.coinatmradar.com)
Bittr (buy only, Bitcoin, IBAN needed, http://www.getbittr.com)
Pocket Bitcoin (buy/sell, Bitcoin, IBAN needed, https://pocketbitcoin.com/)
Will bookmark this and return later, many thanks.
Check out Azteco vouchers, they may help you to start your Bitcoin journey.
Bisq, Robosats (with simple app on Android), @peachbitcoin, @hodlhodl work great without KYC.
Never tried Peach Bitcoin before (will look into it), and I'm not 100% positive I tried Robosats but the others all had those issues I listed about DEXes, unfortunately.
I've been using Bisq for 4 years now and have never had an issue with the exchange or with anyone I'm transacting with. Obviously that's not a guarantee you wouldn't have an issue, but from my experience, the risk is low. Granted, it's a little bit of a hassle to get started since you need to already have some sats to deposit, but that's a one time hassle.
If you want a guide to help walk you through how to set it up and use it while minimizing KYC risk as much as possible, I would recommend Econoalchemist's guide. That's what I used.
Like someone else mentioned, you can use Zelle through your bank to make the P2P payment. From the looks of it, that seems to be one of the most popular options as there's almost always a decent amount of trades available using it.
I have had the problem you mentioned of the trade requiring a higher escrow amount than I had available or wanted to put up, but in that situation, I'd say you have two options:
1. Keep checking back every so often until you find a trade you like, or
2. Create a buy offer of your own so you can set the terms you can afford and are comfortable with.
I hope that's helpful. I've been happy with Bisq personally. I completely understand your caution to the risk involved -- I started with really small amounts while I tested it out -- however, for what it's worth, IMO I think the greater risk is not having any Bitcoin at all.
I appreciate this. I'll be giving Bisq another look, just won't get my hopes up considering how every other attempt I've made has failed haha. If this last ditch attempt doesn't work, I'm just going to give up. Not worth my stress trying to figure it all out, honestly. Can't have a parallel economy if it's a nightmare to try to access.
But yeah, I'll try Bisq again and see if it works out.
Look into Haveno.
https://haveno-reto.com
This is one I've been meaning to look into but haven't. Thanks for the reminder!
Step 1: Overcome fear.
Step 2: Invest only what you can afford to lose.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit.
I'm not really able to afford to lose anything right now.
People that should know better. Programmers of open source software. Don't accept monero, accept only the top few scam coins or more often then not think all crypto is a scam and accept nothing but patreon and PayPal and Normie's don't know fuck all about nothing and think its all bullshit. But like Linux its what is needed so will always exist. And you can't dilute that like a stock.
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