Yes but a useful one 

 It's not, but it's considered a privacy coin that supposedly has more privacy than btc.  

 Only the maxiest of maxhards will say it's a shitcoin. But they will agree its not bad out of all the shot coins. It's just not *their* chosen currency.  

 only people who don't understand that lightning uses onion layered encryption like Tor does think that bitcoin doesn't already have an answer to monaro 

 you forgot to mentioning for opening or closing a lightning channel you need to make a transparent on-chain transaction  on the bitcoin network. 

+ it doesn't works for large transactions, good luck to find an anon lightning route who let you move let's say 0.5 btc in one transaction if you have to.. 

 lol, yeah, i'm sure literally dozens of people need to send half a bitcoin on a yearly basis at all lol 

 also, money comes in, money goes out, when and where and from who, only you and the sender knows, the intermediaries know as much as middle hops in a tor circuit

i don't sneer at monaros for nothing, you guys literally don't understand how lightning works or how actually most people use money 

 Don’t people go into shops and stuff and use money in the exchange for goods and stuff? 

 The few people who can and want maximum privacy will probably use Monero.. the ones who doesn't care send it to big exchanges anyway..

Even 0.01 btc can be a problem with some lightning wallets. Most of the large capacity lightning nodes are custodial or running by a kyc exchange like bitfinex. 
 

 this is the new cult of monero narrative now

"but we need to be able to pay of the value of an average car like maybe once a year, but muh monero" lol

payments that size are usually for stuff like a whole car or a small piece of land

everything else can be moved around in small amounts

and you can use tor and only ever make spends or give addresses to send to via tor

you have to do that anyway even with monero, even if there is obfuscation about the payment when it appears on chain

the use case just doesn't exist for monero, and you'll eventually figure that out when it goes to zero 

 I said this amount as an example, but it's also true for 0.01 btc and it's not an incredibly uncommon amount. 

What i mean is that lightning with its privacy works for microtransactions, for anything other than that you have to go on-chain with some tradeoff on privacy. 
With monero, whether it's a micro or large transaction, privacy is on by default on-chain. 

 Bitcoin isn't private at all. Which is why Monero is useful. It is still a shitcoin. Just a useful tool used in a wallet like Cake 

 True. It's all about the ways it's used.  

 yes, but necessary. Monero can be consider a lab to test privacy options, that maybe in the future are BIPs 🤷‍♂️ 

 Yes, e-cash built on Bitcoin will take place of it 

 I'll give you a chance to prove yourself. open up tor browser. if you're really lazy, open up a tor tab in brave browser. go sign up for dread and try to shill cashu to the DNM people who congregate there. see what happens. maybe someone on there is brain damaged enough to fall for it, but you will most likely just get laughed out of the room. ecash is custodial garbage. 

 Nah. Maybe doggie coin stealth payments or something 

 ecash is custodial 
so no

that said
if BTC implements strong privacy i will happily use it 

 https://m.primal.net/McpZ.jpg  

 Ecash is already a non-starter as a replacement for Monero. It's custodial. Even Calle the creator of Cashu has said this. 

 Is privacy and anonymity a shitcoin? 🤔 

 IMHO no. 

If bitcoin is gold. 

If litecoin is silver.

Then monero is either platinum or palladium.

It serves a purpose of my money is none of anyone's fucking business. 

That being said. I don't own any. 

Tried to solo mine unsuccessfully. No exchange I use offers it. So unless some monero bag holder wants to be generous donate some of my first monero to me. I don't think I will realistically go out of my way to add it to my portfolio.  

 Monero is more like stacks of non-sequential $100 bills. It's an awful store of value.  But it does provide privacy, which beats bank accounts, and can be transferred without physical travel, so there's some value add. All depends how much you're willing to pay for that in devaluation while using it. Given how much fiat gets wasted muling money around in the conventional financial space, this seems to suggest that monero is here to stay -- it just shouldn't be mistaken for a great savings vehicle.

Especially when the tools from Samourai Wallet (and the now forked Ashigaru Wallet) do a lot to close the gap using bitcoin-native methods. 

 Samourai no longer has Whirlpool, it was shutdown, so the privacy offered is considerably less than what it once was. 

And even then it's privacy wasn't cheap, fast, or as robust as Monero offers. It also required you to run your own Dojo which most users simply aren't going to do. 

 You can easily coinjoin BTC with Wasabi nowadays. You pick your own coordinator, they don't run one for obvious reasons. Works flawlessly. 

 I thought it was cool what Kruw did to help decentralize the servers, but there are still a few disadvantages vs Monero

Largest inputs in a round have less privacy
Non-uniform amounts (more vulnerable to amount analysis)
Smaller anonymity set especially for recievers
Liquidity isn't shared between different coordinators
Still more expensive in tx fees 

 What about stonewall 1 and 2, ricochet, and stowaway? Did they go the way whirlpool did?

Haven't had a chance to do the research on the back end -- didn't realize any of this was centralized enough to be shut downable. 

 You can buy Monero peer to peer on Bisq, for instance. 

 Do you have a link to the project? 

 I understand why people like the privacy aspect. 
 I think that there will be layer 2 solutions that help and that Monero will go to zero when measured in Bitcoin. 
....time will tell
 for now, I say 💩. 

 So there's no middle ground between Bitcoin and feces to you in terms of monetary value?

The average pair of socks and shoes "will go to zero when measured in Bitcoin" too so are they shit? 

 Some people don't mind shit. I do. 

 So you mind the socks and shoes you call "shit" but not the actual dog shit that gets on your bare feet when you step in it because you don't own socks or shoes? 

 I pick up the dog shit and dispose of it in a compost pile. Then I feed the dog and pet him. And we play with the dog. I don't step in shit even with shoes on because some people actually manage to clean up more than just themselves.  

 What does you thinking you're better than people who walk normally have to do with the cryptocurrency analogy? Explain 

 I don't care if you buy or use monero. Shit people should shitcoin. One day they will get bitcoin at the price they deserve. The price might be shit shoveling. 

 Have fun staying poor, retard 

 Respond little shitcoin snot. 

 You're so desperate for attention you start begging for replies after less than an hour when the person you're talking to hasn't shown any activity in that time

But you're not desperate enough to try leaving retarded attempts at bullying out of your begging?

Kill yourself 

 I... 

 Then who will feed my dog? 

 You. 

 Now you're the one failing to respond after over an hour when I asked you to explain what your careful walking had to do with my analogy 

 I did not get the notification.  Cleaning my environment. 

 You forgot the part where you apologize, but you don't seem capable of doing better anyway 

 Monero is a shitcoin for shit people.

Change my mind. 

 Here's the post you were replying to again since you seem confused

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzqamkcvk5k8g730e2j6atadp6mxk7z4aaxc7cnwrlkclx79z4tzygqy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7qgwwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkctcqyr0yyly9j3ketx3mxs05flrqc42ez7gfj7m93d0u29tvmpet8txqg4gwza6 

 I found a more interesting person to argue with.
That is why I ignored you. You bored me. 

 Didn't ask 

 enjoy your turds.  make some corn if you can.  then buy Bitcoin🌼 

 Low quality chat bot 

 Yeah they've been promising them for years now .

Meanwhile monero keeps providing good privacy with a good user experience

Also
go to zero what? Maybe think about what you're saying?
"i think that my chain will be worth more Fiat in the end" i's not the mic drop you think it is 

 Hey we all think there should be a privacy solution for Bitcoin too. But that's yet to manifest in any simple or comprehensive sense. 

 e-cash layer 2 is exactly this.
sorry monero 🌼 

 Ecash is custodial. Not even the same category as Bitcoin or Monero as it doesn't remove intermediaries. 

  I really have no idea why this gets repeated so much but it never sticks. do they think "custodial" is like a color or a flavor of potato chips or something?

https://m.primal.net/McpZ.jpg  

 For me a shitcoin is a coin who doesn't have any utility, just speculation, scam projects with sketchy team, memecoins...

Monero have a utility for privacy, the transactions are anonymous and can't be traced, by default on-chain. There is a small inflation on Monero forever. So it's not a good coin for a store of value. It's best use is for buying and selling stuffs in a private way. 

 I would like to point out that Monero has less inflation than gold does and gold has been used as a store of value for thousands of years. Even the World Gold Council says that gold inflates at an average annual rate of about 1.5% per year, where Monero is 0.8% per year and falling asymptotically towards zero. The inflation rate keeps miners mining the chain because they have an incentive to do so and it replaces lost coins through lost private keys. 

 Monero is what people thought bitcoin was when they bought it.

It's the only currency that's actually used.

Imagine bitcoin but there's no such thing as chainalysis. That's Monero. 

 nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7erfw36x7tnsw43z7un9d3shjqpqt289s8ck5qfwynf2vsq49t2kypvvkpj7rhegayrur0ag9s2sezaquvwfvt  

 Lol Wtf is that asshole going to do? 

 https://www.tradingview.com/symbols/XMRBTC/ 

 If it would be shitcoin, there would be no need for Europe Union to block it 🅿️  

 If it would be shitcoin, there would be no need for Europe Union to block it 🅿️  

 They're also banning Zimbabwean dollars, which definitely are a shitcoin  

 Xd that’s point   

 Yes. It's functional, sure. But it's too opaque to be trustworthy and it's use case will be taken over by Bitcoin. The market reflects this if you look at Monero priced in Bitcoin. It only loses value. 

 DNMs don't want to use bitcoin. bitcoin is scaling via custodians. DNM people want to interact with custodians as little is possible. these are the first people who invented multisignature escrow and baked it into custom built ecommerce software. they are absolutely never going to adopt cashu. they are not going to just leave all their money with a trusted third party nor do they want to pay bitcoin onchain fees to maintain self-custody. they need something that makes self custody more scalable or they won't use it. 

 The unreasonable thing about your thought process is it ends with saying "shitcoin."

The difference you explained sounds smaller than the difference between Bitcoin and feces, unless you consider Bitcoin just barely a tiny bit better of money than feces. 

 Oh yeah I forgot to call it a shitcoin. Thanks for reminding me. Monero is a shitcoin. 

A shitcoin is anything that is not Bitcoin. Monero is not Bitcoin. It is a plaything for privacy weebs to larp about how mysterious and secretive they are. 

 You didn't forget to call it a shitcoin, retard. I am sorry you think Satoshi Nakamoto's invention is barely a better form of money than feces. 

 Things are shitty for reasons
dismissing something simply because "its not bitcoin" is anti intellectual.

Bitcoin got to where it is today because of critical thinking and preparing for adversarial scenarios. it is not perfect and it makes tradeoffs.

you actively work against that ethos with your moronic maxi attitude. 

 if bitcoin had scalable self-custody and monero-level privacy I would love that. but it doesn't have those things. it is failing to scale without custodians and it cannot offer a level of privacy similar to monero without exposing users to rug pull risk. I want it to overcome these problems but I don't think it will ever happen. 

 you already trist cryptographic primitives more complicated than the range proofs than guarantee monero supply.

y'all act like you're always personally verifying the BTC supply lol 

 It’s a hot potato. Nobody wants it. They just want to use it. 

 To be fair, a potato is better than shit. 

 Yes 

 Me using this thread to see who I need to unfollow 

https://media.tenor.com/kJS0W9pqUDQAAAAC/lurking-creeping.gif 

  https://image.nostr.build/c6aab0a5da3afdb137922c867c9287eb557b30a48b09421da8845aa201e09bec.jpg https://image.nostr.build/9b8b31070e4d0b53732e2ea86e3b48e083b9a4b15f5e4eec610780cbbc20ae3c.jpg  

 a tail emission is not "infinite supply" 

 When does the supply stop growing? 

 as I'm sure your aware
Monero has a .6 XMR block reward in perpetuity 

so you *could* say "as time approaches Infinity so does the supply"

But at any given point in time the supply is known.
That is not "infinite Supply"

Even by your intellectually dishonest definitions. 

 You didn’t answer my question. When does the supply stop growing? 

 I said
"Monero has a .6 XMR block reward in perpetuity"
thats means it doesnt stop.
which answers your question.

i feel like you have reading comprehension problems. 

 Don’t insult me, I haven’t insulted you. If you’re not capable of having a civil discussion then I’ll just mute you. 

If there is no supply cap and the supply growth never stops, then the maximum supply is infinity. On an infinite timeline, the supply of monero trends toward infinity.

Idk why that’s hard to admit. That doesn’t mean monero can’t be useful in other ways. USDT is a shitcoin with an infinite supply but is still useful. 

 fair enough

I literally said exactly the same thing in the above note.

i just pointed out that "trending toward infinity" isn't the same thing as "infinite supply."
because at no point in time is the supply infinite. 

 to elaborate a bit to get the convo going

An artificial hard cap is a knee-jerk reaction to fiat insanity
it is not good monetary policy

It isn't rational to criticize Monero for an inflation rate that's lower than gold.
As if gold hadn't been a stable store of value for thousands of years... 

 I guess that’s where we differ. I think gold is a shitcoin too. Gold shares a lot of the qualities of other shitcoins. Obviously no maximum supply, we can find gold in the ocean and in space. You can’t trade large quantities of it across large distances efficiently. You can’t cross borders with your wealth in it. Its effective use needs a 3rd party. Gold was good at one point in the past on a small scale but it’s not great today. 

 bitcoin's effective use needs a third party. bitcoin developers have utterly failed to deliver scalable self-custody. now they are only able to scale via custodians. this is why you see so many people cheering for things like cashu, or institutions buying bitcoin and leaving it on coinbase. it is scaling via custodians. in a mass adoption scenario only ultra wealthy computer nerds and banks will be able to own their own coins, and everyone else will be forced onto a custodian whether they are responsible enough for self-custody or not. the custodians will have the power to nullify all the other benefits, even the fixed supply, because they are issuing IOUs. 

 And what if you’re wrong and developers continue to improve second layer solutions that don’t rely on 3rd parties? 

 fucking do it. I'm still waiting. please knock my socks off. I expect bitcoin to give me scalable self-custody that doesn't require a degree in installing gentoo, and I expect monero-level privacy at the same time. but it doesn't have that right now. 

 Rome wasn’t built in a day.

Why do you not expect bitcoin-level returns on your monero bag? 

 a lot of people are into cryptocurrency (yes bitcoin is one of those, satoshi called it that) because they expect returns. and they won't interact with anything that they are not certain will give them returns. they may even think that's all there is to it. if you are one of those people you are gonna be really confused when you meet someone who doesn't care as much. I don't need returns to convince me of utility. it's nice when it happens. ideally I should be getting both. but if I am getting returns but not the utility I want, I'm not going to think that's enough for me. if that still confuses you, too bad.

I literally don't think that bitcoin is going down the path of scalable self-custody. I think most of the developers either don't care about that anymore or they are too chickenshit to do any opcodes that may be required. it's going to take a lot of shifts in the community to change my mind about this. if it happens, I will be very happy. but it is very frustrating for me to sit here and see people shilling ecash as a replacement for monero right now and bragging about all sorts of things that actually haven't been accomplished yet and might never happen at all. I'd love if bitcoin actually became good enough to replace monero. fucking do it. 

 I basically agree with those points regarding gold.

but we're discussing supply inflation.
and gold never became a poor store of value because of supply inflation 

iow
a fixed and immutable supply isn't a requirement of money.
doing so has tradeoffs like everything else
but talking like its a necessary property of money is obviously contradicted by history. 

 Fair. So the tradeoff is that everyone on the monero network pays for maintaining the network through inflation whereas everyone on the Bitcoin network pays to maintain the network when they transact. The main takeaway is that everyone has to pay in some way. 

 yeah exactly 
the general game theory on this is usually expressed through the "free rider problem"

basically 
when there's network security cost and only a subset of users pay for it (people making txs)
everyone tries to be a "free rider", ie part of the group that *doesn't pay for security (hodlers).

according to the theory,
the security of such a network trends towards zero.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-rider_problem

whether it works out that way in practice is of course another story.

but the point I want to make 
is that tail emission is a legitimate tradeoff.

there are other tradeoffs Monero makes that can be criticized 
but its not reasonable to argue tail emission makes it shitcoin IMHO. 

 Do you hold bitcoin for savings at all? 

 of course  

 Sorry for butting in, but I think almost no one who supports and promotes #XMR is dumb, fanatical, or narrow-minded enough to not recognize #BTC. Sadly, the same can’t be said for the “BTC-only” crowd when it comes to psychological traits and intelligence. 

 I don’t really have a problem with monero. But a lot of monero shills come at me very aggressively and it’s pretty annoying lol

I value privacy but I have concerns about whether monero is liquid enough to function as a p2p cash alternative when I’m ready to spend my bitcoin. Large bitcoin whales buying in and selling out of monero is not practical because it’ll make the price more volatile. I know bitcoin is volatile but that’s part of the feature of bitcoin. Monero being volatile isn’t a good thing since it is being strictly used for transacting. Monero staying a small project and flying under the radar is probably best. Mass adoption is not realistic imo. 

 Them poor bastards always looking to dunk on the king (bitcoin) in good times. 

 https://song.link/dbvqpfpn6jxxx 

 Bro
We’ll use any valuable code and features in bitcoin when we’re ready, don’t worry about it 

 I’m not worried about nothing related to cryptocurrency. Rest assured.

Just the way you call a coin as “king” resembles me that song.

Serious questions:

When will be that? 
Is there a roadmap? 
No joke. 

 coming soon™ 

 In today’s world, where we’re in a frenzy of technological evolution, it’s funny to see someone use “coming soon” (or something like that) to defend one technology over another for years. And these excuses get thrown around left and right with no shame. Some even use them with a bit of pride. 

 No one here used coming soon. 
New features and tech take their damn long time trickling in to bitcoin.
That too is a feature. 

 I've remember when they said that lightning would be private

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzp7v96vy3jlyqtct3n3e3sk6hflp7usra0sdkz477axwx4n39nxamqyvhwumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytn6daaz6um9wfmzummjvuhszymhwden5te0wp6hyurvv4cxzeewv4ej7qgwwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkctcpzdmhxue69uhhwmm59e6hg7r09ehkuef0qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7qpqj86ax5pvzs6qaugh2tvnfqywanc9jgc3fqgdntfcane9sqkcaaqqv9l29f 

 Hey!! Don’t push them too much: BTC is a cheap cryptocurrency, have a really small network and the mining reward is smaller. They don’t have time nether resources to implement the coming soon features. 

 Bro don’t get sarcasm should avoid discussing. Pachorro Out! 

 not really.

maxis are much more prone to find opportunity to dunk
and much LESS interested in discussing nuance.

also they famously are widely NOT interested in using new code with new features and often are fans of premature ossification.

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzqtr9jsrjtwl3p0am754hd3qkqe65gsfxfac860vuc882hpkh8ltlqyfhwumn8ghj7am0wsh82arcduhx7mn99uqzpq7zdh08nlq9fzldv80ntq5kqzulrhwq7lsmreaghvk0uhr94rqc7zdafe 

 Easy. Be a maxi 
Stop getting dumped on (and being poor)
Buy some bitcoin and enjoy the ride to $250k in 2025.
Cheers
👊🏻🧡🍻 

 you got the wrong thread again bro 
or just talking to yourself maybe  

 Nope. talkin to you.
Dont shit coin. 

 dont do drugs kids  

 legit concern

i solve this by having a stack of monero as well and move between the two just a few times per year

which means my fiat net worth is lower than it would be otherwise 

but I'm highly critical of the maxi attitude that everything should revolve around maximizing your fiat equiv buying power 

 h/t @mister_monster  

 it's both for monero actually. the network security budget is funded by both tail emission and transaction fees. but the fee revenue is not very significant. monero has about 20% of the daily transaction count of litecoin. if it gets used more then a greater share of the security budget will come from transaction fees. 

 Not everyone. Holders don't pay, but they benefit, and those that spend subsidize the security on behalf of those that don't spend. It's a big problem that will increasingly become obvious as it rears it's head in the coming decades. I wrote up some detail on it in the linked note and more in the thread it is in

nostr:nevent1qqs84fr56hq6wzjcdmg6pu5s65v9a05duxejjytgj7jgk0jdf6zgheqpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsygxaypt42mug5ex2e5r46qrlr0jgp72fey0ad5xy6kfm4nxm924augpsgqqqqqqstyf93r 

 The holders paid to secure their wealth when they initially moved their funds to their wallet. It’s just that there isn’t an ongoing cost to holding it. But wealth that never moves is not beneficial. At some point they have to move it and pay a cost. 

I think that energy will become cheaper over time but also that bitcoin will become more valuable over time as well. The subsidy continues to shrink but Bitcoin’s value continues trending up while hash continues to rise along with it. 

Time will tell. 

 There is an ongoing cost to holding it. Your wealth is secured by the network, without that security, your wealth is worthless. That security you get is subsidized by spenders, and this has incentive/game-theoretical implications for the bitcoin network that are not good. You can have the rarest of assets and if it can disappear while you sleep it's not worth anything. 

Energy becoming cheaper... As energy becomes cheaper, people spend more on it by raising their energy usage. This is commonly observed everywhere in the world, and so far, empirically, this has held true for the bitcoin network as well.

I explained all of this stuff the other day in more detail in the following note, as well as another note in the same thread, if you want to give it a read to get a good idea of my thoughts on the matter.


nostr:nevent1qqs84fr56hq6wzjcdmg6pu5s65v9a05duxejjytgj7jgk0jdf6zgheqpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsygxaypt42mug5ex2e5r46qrlr0jgp72fey0ad5xy6kfm4nxm924augpsgqqqqqqstyf93r 

 Found this post that gives an alternative perspective on energy demand. Read the first section on AI energy use.

“But energy demand did not follow in the same way … Between 2010 and 2018, global data centre compute increased by more than 550%. Yet energy use in data centres increased by just 6%.”

https://newsletter.humanprogress.org/p/weekly-progress-roundup-35e 

 I'll read it, but just your quote says demand went up in the study, not down, which is what I'm saying. Compute increased 550% and energy usage 6%, if your projection was right it would've gone up 300% or something and energy usage gone down. That's not what we see empirically anywhere in the world. Where efficiency goes up, new energy demand outpaces it. 

  Ladies and genetlemen I present to you the future of p2p digital cash

https://image.nostr.build/9f76e4c0f830601c97c152d2b5336ab3a18630c758d0a4ae48b454c08199af30.jpg 

 Free markets are beautiful 

 There is no second best Tara 

 Bitcoin is third best so a Bitcoin maxi would wish there was no second best 

 https://m.primal.net/MckR.png last year chart Monero vs Bitcoin 

 But don't you people call doggie coin a shitcoin too?

https://m.primal.net/Mckq.jpg  

 yes.  its all shit. 
 BTC or Nada. 

 Knew it. You people don't understand charts even if sometimes you post them 

 who people? smart people?
 

 good point, but that's what shitcoins are truly, just casinos to try to end up getting more Bitcoin in a selfish manner by diluting Bitcoin itself, ending up in a zero sum game, a complete waste of time and energy. 

 Now you're just making shit up 

 Fiat charts are indicators of speculative degen interest and not of measurements of value 

 It is not a fiat chart.  It's a sat chart. 

 sigh 
(XMR/USD)/(BTC/USD) is obviously USD denominated 

They are all Fiat charts.
prices are denominated in U.S dollars. 

 Guess what you could potentially have your BTC stack go to zero if governments and criminals can simply trace your transactions and monitor the blockchain and just $5 wrench attack you. Ask BTC Sessions friend how that worked out for him. 

 Not really. It's a privacy coin. Any app or website or whatever that works with cryptocurrency should have monero set up for people that use it, but other coins are probably better for savings. 

 @Kanzan
lolol

https://m.primal.net/Mcku.mp4
 

 https://i.nostr.build/TZYIKJNJX1QgBDHw.jpg 

 not according to Amir
https://v.nostr.build/L7ek0UVCjMY2yg0m.mp4 

 Yes. 

 Bitcoin is all about seperating money and state.  In front of their eyes. And they can do nothing about it.

Total transparency gives trust and auditability to all everywhere.

The reason government don't like this mainchain superpower is because they lose the privilege of standing behind the curtain. Bitcoin audits their corruption.

Governments will probably choose monero over bitcoin if it was an pick one situation. Shitcoins trend to zero against bitcoin. 

 wut?

Blackrock is buying up BTC and maxis are cheering it on,
meanwhile they've pressured almost every CEX in the Western world to delist Monero 

and you say governments would pick Monero if they had the choice??

That's just obviously not what's going on. 

 Governments want secrecy and control.  Monero and fiat are similar in that regard. By using fiat governments retain both. They will never choose monero because it is inferior to fiat gor yheir purposes.

The reason governments are buying bitcoin is because game theory is forcing them.

If fiat was not an option then corrupt institutions would prefer monero to bitcoin to obfuscate their criminal behaviour.

One thing criminals don't tolerate is competition. They have no sense of freemarkets because free markets are morally ethical. Fiat monopolists won't tolerate monero as they won't tolerate a moneyprinter in your basement.

Bitcoins ethics forces governments to play nice otherwise they look like dictators when they ban it putting them in a hot seat with their constituents.

Bitcoin forces behaviour where monero obfuscates action.

You decide which is superior and allocate accordingly.   

 

 found the Breedlove fan.

i prefer facts and information to arbitrary fantasy and hopium.

but as you say, the reader can decide. 

 I am also a breedlove critic. Do you want facts?
What facts? I'll go get them for you. 

 You have said nothing of substance yet.
This is not a conversation, just you on a soapbox spouting theory.

You don't know enough about Monero to criticize it
You're just regurgitating Maxi taglines to be a team player.

throw down some facts or GTFO  

 GTFO of where?

Fact:
Monero is trending to zero against sats.
Fact:
Monero is a musical chairs game trying to fix bitcoin like zcash, dash and litecoin. When the scheme fails some slowly some quickly everyone ends up back at bitcoin because that is where the honest labourer is going to receive fair wages and save value in. Forever.

So monero is fun. Cool beans. Might be useful.
It will be used by those who are dissatisfied with the properties of bitcoin. I admire bitcoin for the same reasons you dislike it. 

Transparency. This is a fundamental divide.
 

 ok there's one fact there 
and its true the price is indeed lower than Bitcoins.

Fiat prices are indications of speculative interest by institutions and degens.
they do not measure value.

so it's really weird that people supposedly interested in freedom money bring that up immediately. 

 Free markets are better at discovering value and freedom is valuable and valued. The speculation is valuable too.

It is called signal. To measure signal you need an indicator. From the indicator you measure if your idea is good or bad.

It is so easy to understand a little child could figure it out intuitively.  You are overthinking it. 

 https://i.nostr.build/qFyDzAhK5eCQwnO4.gif 

 https://image.nostr.build/4f5670c77b86d1275f635c01db729f6b86d2e724c02970b495b49ea20b123075.jpg 

 Not lower.  It's going down forever. 

 which only means fiat exists and you're measuring prices in it

not the mic drop you think  

 Against sat. I don't think in fiat. 

 youre comparing two fiat prices and saying "its going down forever" dude

get a grip
 

 Okay. 

 Think critically before you wut? Makes you seem reactionary and stupid. 

 You are playing 1 dimensional chess.  Elevate your thinking and you might win. 

 cool story bro 

 When clever people get tired of arguing many big words to many dumb people they revert and channel their intelligence into a single phrase.

Monero is a shitcoin.

If you have an honest, unbiased and intelligent mind you will understand this wisdom.

If you don't you are a shitcoiner.

That was not so hard.

Repeat after me. "I am a shitcoiner. I love monero."

Honesty is a good thing. 

 "I am a very clever person
that's why I keep writing replies to this one post online"

rent free. lol 

 Either you can fix the money, or you can play whackamole with intelligence agencies.

There is no try. 

 https://i.nostr.build/ZJScgaCoPYieGhG1.gif 

 A fully surveilled blockchain isn't helping protect you from governments. Plenty examples of this like BTC Sessions friend getting a nice little knock at the door from the Canadian government to force him to give up his keys.

If you want to seperate money from state you need some way to additionally transact with strong privacy. 

 government / institutions buy the bitcoin, and sit on it, or rather let Coinbase sit on it. they then trade paper bitcoin and IOUs and futures and derivatives like they already do, not even touching the bitcoin that "backs" their financial system.

a transparent, auditable main chain exposes none of the shady business.

and they beat Bitcoin into submission. they never need to use it, they only need to "own" it.

 

 Time is the factor not taken into account here. 

 🔮 

 lmao at the maxis who seriously think the US government is going to spend their pentagon money through the bitcoin blockchain. how many cans of butane did they huff today 

 i would lmao but it's sad. 

 That's why countries are continuously banning Monero and exchanges are delisting it. Because they like it so much. 

Lmao 

 This is history. Now Bitcoin is everything with merging Bitcoin with the state. It is captured and they will control every single transaction. They have their CBDC now 

 monero is a beautiful counter concept to bitcoin.

pow, hardfork-based, heavily used

 

 The privacy it provides comes at a cost, you can't audit the supply, you can't spot inflation bugs easy and it's got a smaller network effect, and liquidity. 

If you value privacy over wealth preservation then by all means, while Bitcoin's privacy tools have their own issues and cost, I think it still works out cheaper versus holding monero

You can also always use monero when you want privacy and use it as a confidential transaction layer with atomic swaps

 

 Fair enough 

i would amend that you have cryptographic guarantee of supply 
even if you can't do "back of the napkin" math.

i mean
when was the last time you personally verified the Bitcoin supply? 

 Lol I assume that my node is doing that for me, but we can apply that to XMR too, like how many monero people are running nodes either and verifying either? I got no issue with XMR, don't use it, would have been nice to see ring signitures on a Bitcoin side chain too but hey we make do with what we've got 

 It absolutely applies to xmr too
I just find it weird that people talk about Supply audibility as if they actually did it

There's also a disconnect because people are already trusting plenty of cryptographic primitives on bitcoin
It isn't the stretch to trust the range proofs that guarantee supply on Monero like people say

since its the first mover, I'm glad Bitcoin is transparent for the sake of public trust
but at this point I think it's retarded to insist on total transparency 

 running a monero node is very popular in the community. one of the downsides of monero is there is nothing like SPV, so whether you run a full node or not, your wallet has to scan every block since the last time you opened your wallet. it has no way of knowing if you got a transaction unless it looks at all of them. think back to how bitcoin-qt worked, it's a lot like that. so it's not that much more work to just run a full node anyway. this is also the thing I dislike the most about monero. I'm not married to it and I don't think it's perfect. 

 Yes, it applies to both, but Bitcoin maxis are almost always the ones that bring up supply auditability as if they are actually personally verifying it themselves. In practice they're just relying on their node and trusting it to do it for them just like any Monero node runner. 

 People will call it what they like. Fact is it's useful and provides advantages that Bitcoin can't (or even lightning). Maybe that will change in the future guess we'll see. 

 You tell us 👀

"Monero is a very good privacy complement to Bitcoin" -Nick Szabo

"I looked at all the other major cryptocurrencies that had adjustable blocksizes and the only one that I thought that didn't completely suck was Monero" -Jameson Lopp

"Maybe you need a Monero" -Michael Saylor

"For really strong privacy, Monero is much better" -Andreas Antonopoulos

"There's a lot of advantages to using Monero" -Matt Odell

"Monero is the only goddamn currency that's used!" -John McAfee

"Monero will be a champion in that space and we'll have a Bitcoin-Monero duopoly" -Max Keiser

"All fiat systems and all tokens outside of Bitcoin and monero (to my knowledge) have middlemen you cannot get rid of" -Adam Curry

"I would say Monero is not a shitcoin. I think it's a very innovative and new research project that works." -Max Hillbrand

"Monero; Just use it. Objectively it's better than Bitcoin [for privacy]...it's obvious" -Amir Taaki

"Monero is closer to our hearts than whatever Bitcoin is turning into today" -Samourai Wallet

"Bitcoin is the reserve currency. Hold it. Privacy coins are transactional privacy. Use them...Monero" -Balaji

"99% of cryptocurrencies are complete and total garbage, but even among the upper echeleon of real ones, Monero is in the top percentile, so it deserves our respect" -Paul Sztorc

"Surprising number of Monero lovers on #Nostr. It’s the only altcoin that I consider has a community of actual cypherpunks with similarly aligned values as bitcoin." -Guy Swann

"Monero has always been the altcoin outlier for me, never a shitcoin because I have a valid use for it that I can't achieve with #bitcoin." -Peter McCormack

"I have an issue when Bitcoiners get so closed-minded and says Moneros a shitcoin. No it's not. There's some brilliant people there and there's a lot to learn...I'm a fan of Monero." -Nicholas Gregory of Mercury Layer

"Cashu isn't an alternative to Monero. Monero is cool." -Calle

"To me Monero is the litmus test in Bitcoin...Monero is such a good money just technically" -Ragnar Lifthrasir of Guns N Bitcoin

"There are altcoins out there that have interesting ideas, but they are very very rare...if a couple altcoins exist, like Monero, where they actually have an interesting idea and a different model that's fine." -Peter Todd

"Monero is doing the job that gave btc its start." -Ray Youssef 

 nice list 

 I like this list though you don't need consenting influencers to make Monero a legit digital currency. But I guess it helps with shutting up the "Bitcoin only, everything else is a shitcoin" posse. 
nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzptm5p5vch2acc7uz6zj8rr4n2jan76he4xrrnwzaffw0zdcu4w59qqs8vg83cwxtvl5hzqmzefwf9pwkns9np08m57s0ahp0kmv6hazu84gn3kk9u 

 Yep, exactly. It's not for me or you.

The average curious Bitcoiner might not consider my opinion worth much (or don't want to say it publically), but might give Monero more consideration if they find out all these respected figures from their community saying they also like it (I also have respect for a lot of people on this list) 

 Followed! 

 Hell yeah! If you need some advices, here they are!
nostr:nevent1qqsqzrzcp2xxhu8ux370r982ssntek45juqfyqnu55ct2gj6qm3rgcgppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qgsxua0hju3e0j3jjhs0fjs0h3htnnreh6zm4lw4d0fhsgsv4rhwwnsrqsqqqqqplqh78a 

 🫡🦅 

 É uma ferramenta, use conforme a necessidade.
Exemplo para os orangotangos consanguinios:
Você tem 100 parafusos Philips para apertar e as seguintes ferramentas:
Mão;
Faca de cozinha;
Chave de fenda;
Chave Philips;
Parafusadeira com fio;
Parafusadeira sem fio.
Eu sei a minha escolha, mas qual seria a sua?

 

 Até os maxi tolos reconhecem. Foi literal para quem não pensa por si mesmo e precisa de um empurrão de "maiores" mentes... 

 Essa busca por opiniões alheias enche o saco, nos debates de hoje só escuto: segundo "fulano" é isso; "ah, mas beltrano diz aquilo"; e quando eu digo, "interessante a opinião dele, mas e tu, o que você realmente crê sobre isso?" ficam com cara de loading.
Pqp.
Usam a opinião alheia como se fosse a própria, onde deveriam analisar vários pontos de vista e usar como embasamento para a dele. 

 Olhe o perfil de quem crítica tanto o Bitcoin, e defende Monero. Na grandíssima maioria dos casos ela usa carteira Lightning.

Eu não preciso de Monero, mas eles provavelmente precisam de Bitcoin por usarem tanto apesar de tantas críticas. 

Pra mim, as atitudes valem mais do que mil argumentos. 

 Não tiro a sua razão.
Eu que realmente não entendo esse ímpeto de alguns em querer sempre criticar o outro.
 

 Prevejo que usaremos Monero no futuro. É inescapável e será um trunfo importante. O zeitgeist aponta para uma tirania sem precedentes e precisaremos de subterfúgios para surfar esse momento. Claro que teremos zonas de convergência e liberdade, mas todos conseguirão escapar do gulag br? 

 Nem fale. É triste a vida de quem não tem suas próprias concepções e sempre precisa do ombro dos gigantes para avistar mais longe... 

 Nice compilation 

 Ok but "quoting" is not the best kind of argument. 

 I got those too if you'd like 

 I got you pal, have a nice day 😁 

 No 

 I'm waiting  

 The fact that governments are actively trying to shut it down whilst subsequently piling institutional money into Bitcoin will tell you exactly where the control is. 

Take a step back and look.  

 Wrong question
It should be - is monero permissioned or permissionless? 
Ther is a permissionless principle in #bitcoin otherwise it cannot exist
Is bitcoin permissioned or permissionless?

Every one seems to miss this important point it cannot be both permissioned and permisonless. 
Monero is permisonless
Bitcoin is captured by KYC 


https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle https://image.nostr.build/4274c679730439bf5e552456352af86762625a0691c867315cc41fecbf533f6e.jpg  

 #Bitcoin is not even slightly captured by KYC. And the fact that there are more KYC exchanges is neither evidence of nor relevant to the idea that it is "captured" by KYC. It's an obvious result of simply being more widely available. That's all.

I get plenty of KYC free #Bitcoin, most of what I get is KYC free actually. Because its my money. I get paid in and pay people in Bitcoin directly. 

Because the network actually has liquidity, I can use it as money. In no way whatsoever am I captured by KYC when using BTC day to day. I jsut zapped you 1,000 sats to prove it. 

 They came for bitcoin exchanges.
I did not speak out, I can do self custody.

Then they came for tumblers.
I did not speak out, I'm not some "darknet hacker".

Then they came for self custody, code, privacy.
I did not speak out, surely this is our right?

Then they came for me.
Who will be left to speak for you?

"I don't believe we shall ever have a good money again before we take the thing out of the hands of government, that is, we can't take them violently out of the hands of government, all we can do is by some sly roundabout way introduce something that they can't stop."
F. A. Hayek 

 I mean, I agree with all of this and have been very vocal about the referenced issues and in supporting and using the associated tech… but I don’t see how these have much relevance to the point we were discussing before about Bitcoin having been captured — implying that these technologies and non-KYC use is no longer possible and it’s now a permissioned system. 

 say what?!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZTIdnooV-s&pp=ygUedWggb2ggeW91IG1hZGUgYSBtaXN0YWtlIHNvbmcg 

 🤖 Tracking strings detected and removed!

🔗 Clean URL(s):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZTIdnooV-s

❌ Removed parts:
&pp=ygUedWggb2ggeW91IG1hZGUgYSBtaXN0YWtlIHNvbmcg 

 the Corn is a worldwide network on the uP!   the olde network can't maintain!   DoneDeal/ante uP/ 

 hey players we need a cornhorn to play the Vibe(*_*) 

 People who use monero are stuck in a cul de sac. An lonely echo chamber of having a secret coin but no peers to transact with. Go to your local butcher and explain to him that bitcoin is better money but monero is better, better money so buy bitcoin and find a bridge and exchange for monero... Or download this wallet and I will pay you but you cannot pay anyone else later. Effectively trying to convince him to hold a bag of secret coins that no one he knows wants and the ones who want it are not going to tell him because it's a secret.

Good luck with adoption. 
Monero adoption is like homosexualism.
No organic growth. Just plain recruitment.

No game theory. Just a bunch of lonely guys holding bags.
 

 Another - Why don't the MXR'rs build a social protocol where people zap each other monero and they can all show us how liquid their asset is. 

Oh, it won't work, because we won't be there.

FYI, if nostr had an option where you could choose to zap sats or monero I would stop using nostr because I don't approve of shitcoinery.

Fiat is a shitcoin.
Gold is a shitcoin.
Monero is a shitcoin.

GTFO shitcoin apologists.

 

 Yeah nostr is open source so technically anyone can add for their own client that features while others remain Bitcoin only 

 Guess you'll be leaving then.
https://mostard.org/
https://github.com/retrnull/garnet

Or you need to call the nostr CEO and complain
 

 Already got that one. 

 it has fungibility

nostr:nevent1qqsqs9hzhjg6hekndel430urzf0t35vvq4a5pn672g3ylslr263xmrgpzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgtczyrm57q2e4aszr90j3yx50txph8xcwaqhtt7t4rmz883agpqnmu0tjqcyqqqqqqgwkhx6t 

 Yes.

For all who say "bUt iT hAs uTiLiTy" ... money's only utility is being a SoV and being a MoE. All other features, including the preservation of privacy -> not. Study money.

And it already fails at being an SoV. Hot potato money. 

 You don't need monero, you can just use ecash 

 I don't think a simple privacy protocol is enough to justify the value of an entirely separate money. The network effects and tendency toward consolidation in monetary networks is extraordinary. 

I highly suspect the value of #Monero as measured in #Bitcoin will fall indefinitely. Maybe some of its network value will be sustained long term, kind of like Tor vs TCP/IP (open internet), but hard to say at this stage. Monetary transitions take a really long time.

I do stand by my comments that I think most of that community have cypherpunk values (rather than the outright stupid scams of the rest of "crypto"), and I think privacy is a very admirable value to be hyper focused on... but I genuinely don't think it keeps a separate monetary token alive on a long term time scale. 

I think privacy will simply be a feature provided by many layers and networks that use BTC as their monetary base. 

 it simply cannot be a store of value. I see 2 possibilities.  1 they create some tech that will be replicated in bitcoin and monero dies. 2 they create some tech that cannot be replicated in bitcoin and some people will still move in and out when they need to do some black market/illegal transactions. I hope monero grows so it becomes relevant enough to get a really adversarial environment, and we find out how private it really is. 

 That's all the point bitcoiners are missing, Bitcoin is stuck in regulations compliance, if you add real privacy on it, wall street will dump it or fork it. Bitcoin will become the enemy and bitcoiners don't want that, they want Bitcoin as a "digital gold" so let it be traceable with no privacy, you don't want to be that bad, Monero is here for that 😉  

 None of the either/or dilemmas you’ve listed here are actually either/or dilemmas. They need to be for Monero to have a long term value proposition at all, but they aren’t. 

 auditability, finality <--------> privacy, speed
base chain <--------> higher layers
It's nice to have options 👍  

 Monero is NGD tech 

 It's an altcoin going to zero against bitcoin. We can call it shitcoin for sure  

 It does not have a maximum supply and it is nearly impossible to audit the current supply 

 In a way, both yes and no. It enables anonymous payments without the need to navigate the complicated processes associated with Bitcoin, such as purchasing through non-KYC platforms, using coinjoin, mixing via Lightning, or swapping. However, it doesn’t serve as a store of value; individuals who hold it typically want to sell it as soon as possible, much like a hot potato. 

 Monero is a source of really good ideas that need to be implemented into Bitcoin, so Monero *can be* a shitcoin.

Everything good must be consumed by Bitcoin eventually, in one way or another, or Bitcoin is not good enough. 

 even more than greed, theres this smug self satisfaction of knowing something special and being part of an elite group.
then that feeling is rationalized by the greed. because NGU Good.

"if giant fiat institutions are buying Bitcoin it must validate all the ideas Saife wrote in that book I read that one time? I am very smart.
people who criticize or point out nuanced tradeoffs are very dumb."

pretty normal groupthink bullshit. 

 Just out curiosity, how much monero do you own?  2 digits or 3? 

 maybe more? 😸 

 Guess you'll never know.  

 Best answer ever! Lol 

 jackass 

 $1000?!? Damn ypu gonna be rich 

 insane that you automatically think in fiat terms

i read this as how many Monero i have 

 https://song.link/dbvqpfpn6jxxx 

 I've tried a million times to explain to maxis that the path they are walking down right now is scaling via custodians and it ends in banks controlling everything and nobody except ultra rich people having any sovereignty. all the benefits of the technology are completely nullified at the end of this path. they never give a rebuttal and they don't care what happens at the end of their path as long as they personally get rich, but they will pretend to care about these things if it draws in more suckers. 

 Define maxi 
Genuinely 
No sarcasm  

 you won't get it 

 Fine … guess I’ll take my coins elsewhere to spend. 🤣🤣🤣 

 get fucked 

 this, 100%

the whole bitcoin solves everything religion is so. fucking. cringe. 

 Don’t know the shift coin 
But do know #StackSats
#btc #bitcoin worldwide will be standard 

https://nostrcheck.me/media/2aadfb8ac7d43aca6d164ed99248147910048269601ff60d4463c4d5b3abfdcd/a7d0e04b1992e53b273f1982a67c313fe8b82a4d075b7c0b9c3dc19478f39162.webp 

 -Unlimited supply
A known and constant tail emission is not "unlimited supply"

-Constant hard forks
Hard forks are not "constant." Monero forks in new features when they are ready.
There has never been a contentious fork.

- Less secure
This really is a matter of perspective.
Bitcoin could be "less secure" because people can see you use it.
But its true the amount of energy protecting the Monero chain is VASTLY smaller.

- Less scalable
Monero txs are indeed larger and the chain grows faster. However L2s are also possible on Monero if its ever a problem.

- Offers little to none actual privacy benefits
This is just straight up false.
Monero protects the sender, receiver and amount in an *extremely* secure way while still providing a good user experience.
You can literally download a wallet and send to an address and have good privacy guarantees.

Anything else? 

 bitcoin has unlimited supply if you have unlimited time to find a SHA256 hash collision. see, I can say retarded things too! 

 All of these have counter arguments, but that last one is just dishonest

Amounts and addresses are completely hidden 
(not merely obfusctated like the optional rube goldberg workarounds for Bitcoin "privacy")

How is that "little to none actual privacy benefits"?