Oddbean new post about login | logout That's what most of the divorced women I know tell me. That being married is restricting and exhausting, without adequate perceived benefit, and that they are happier alone or with someone else. This is also what women primarily respond in surveys (arguing over kids, career, housework).
I didn't go into my marriage thinking about "benefits". Admittedly, I was very young. But I entered into my marriage with the idea of a forever marriage. I wanted to build a future together with my now ex-husband. A family. A life together. I always enjoyed being a housewife and mother. I wasn't bored. And my ex liked it too. We decided together that I would be a housewife. We didn't have any financial problems. We had a functioning company. However, I have to admit that staying at home also made me extremely dependent on my ex-husband, which was dramatically noticeable. I went through some very difficult times. Boredom wasn't my issue and I certainly didn't give up quickly either.
Interesting. Your situation is probably more common in Germany, where housewives are more common. All my data is American. I was actually describing the opposite: Women who work full- or part-time, take care of the household and kids, and are expected to stay up late to entertain their husband and then get up at 6 am and repeat the whole process again. This is the life of the majority of married mothers.
Most women don't enter into marriage thinking about benefits. It's more that they become disillusioned after they enter into it and start asking themselves why they are putting up with the unhappiness. Fewer and fewer young women want to marry, and I am quite sure that it's because they are beginning to ask themselves if it's worth the effort. It's easy to say that they should just do it, anyway, but I doubt that will motivate them. If we can't describe what net-benefit marriage will bring them, then we might have to admit that it brings them none.
I have very special role models when it comes to marriage: my parents. They still have a wonderful and romantic marriage today. Of course, they had difficult times. There were also arguments. They didn't have the same opinion on everything. But they got through it together. They supported each other and grew together. That was my role model. And I firmly believe that a marriage is worth every effort and that the value of a marriage is not so easy to quantify
I was a housewife for a few years (and since 3 weeks 😁) and I never felt "financially trapped" because my husband has made a conscious effort to ensure that I own property in my own name. I think this is something other men could also do, to reduce womens' inclination to stay in the workforce and make marriage and motherhood more attractive to women.
Oh, I didn't feel financially dependent for a long time either. We owned everything together. What happened next is very personal. But believe me, I couldn't imagine it myself. But I certainly made clear mistakes
Everyone makes mistakes, if you're married long enough.
I don't think "owning together" is enough. I think the homemaker needs to own things outright. Solely in their own name, so that they can take it and walk out the door. Like have their own retirement account, gold vault, Bitcoin wallet, etc. It's a psychological thing, mostly, but psyche is important.
Women used to have to put up with a lot of husbandly misbehavior because they couldn't afford to leave, so being a housewife is surprisingly unattractive to most young women. They want to work at least part-time, to maintain independence.
and this is where it gets complicated. My children and I have had to experience in a very hard and impressive way what this dependency can mean. And yet I enjoyed every moment with my children. I'm sure that's why we're so close. Nevertheless, I would advise every woman to be and remain financially independent. A very complicated issue
Yes, we need to talk about it, tho. I think some men are beginning to see the point in having a housewife, again, but the sort of prudent woman who would make a good housewife is going to balk at the current situation and prefer to keep her day job. I think the key is in severing the direct link between earned-income and personal wealth of each spouse. More FINANCIAL acknowledgement of the homemaker's (male or female) contribution to the success of the entire family. So that homemakers can retain some financial independence without a salary.
This is interesting Laesarin. Most men consider marriage to be a huge financial risk right now due to alimony and child support, and they very often get shafted on custody of their own children. How do you think this squares up with the ideas discussed here? There seems to be a deep suspicion on both sides of this equation.
It depends a lot on which country or state you live in; where the divorce is filed. German women don't do very well out of divorce. They often get nothing or very little, and custody is usually shared. Florida is like winning the divorce lottery, I hear.
In Germany, many single mothers have major financial problems after divorce
That is unfortunate. It would be great to see humans achieve a balanced a fair solution to this - although it’d be even better to see both men and women treat each other well enough it was a non-issue. But that’s just me being a dreamer.
I think the government is the wrong place to try to achieve balance. This is the sort of thing that was handled in a marriage contract. Fathers used to make sure their star-struck, infatuated daughters got a good deal and a good deal is not "she arrives penniless and leaves penniless and then has to go grovel to a judge or beg her ex to pay his child support".
Not only in Germany. This is a hot topic and long to talk here.
I suspect a lot of divorced women are just receiving defacto welfare. I.e. even when they theoretically receive alimony or child support, the government has trouble pulling the money from their exes (because they disappear or quit their jobs) and the state fronts the money. On the other hand, some men really are being bled dry and not getting their visitation and custody rights respected. Both can be true.
I also think that there are many truths here. Unfortunately, there is often a lack of fairness in dealing with the situation. There are too many feelings and disappointments involved. Which is unfortunately to the detriment of the children.
Agreed. The worst seems to happen when people feel like they need to preemptively act. That causes a reaction and then a reaction to the reaction and... I suspect that this is partly fear-based chaos because the current system is failing people, so they can't calm down.
That makes sense. I figured a cultural difference had to be at play. In the states I’m noticing a huge movement of men who have no interest in getting married because the woman can leave at any given point (and do in much higher numbers than the men) and basically bankrupt the men, along with depriving them of their children. I’m not saying we don’t have bastards here that women need to be able to escape from, just that the pendulum seems to have swung a different direction here, which has caused that same skepticism on the other gender’s behalf. As a side note, my wife’s desire to be a house wife was a pretty big part of my decision to propose. Her assistance at home unlocked a ton of freedom and even financial possibility for us. There is more than one way to make sure a woman isn’t trapped. It was my initiative to make sure the land was jointly held, that she had access to the same accounts I did, and to make sure she stayed (geographically) close to her own family and was in regular contact with them. (Means and a place to go is essential to any woman attempting to escape an abusive situation) I would encourage any young woman to seek a man that does the same - and to consider the opposite a huge red flag. It’s a comfort to me that she’s set up this way, as it removes a temptation to get away with any misbehavior or taking for granted - as I don’t have to worry about feeling like I could get away with it. If that makes any sense.
Yes, reducing occasion to sin, for both sides. 💯 I have always had that sort of setup, and that has actually reduced my incentive to leave, when we've had an argument. I can leave with enough for a down-payment on an apartment and a car, just by grabbing my phone and walking down the street to my uncle's house. Feeling trapped induces panic and increases sneakiness and vindictiveness.
There are very particular states where property is just split 50/50, after one day of marriage, and wealthy men in those states can get reamed, it's true. They think the entire world is like that, but it isn't. Divorce usually leaves women poorer. They often leave despite that, which should give us all pause.
Being able to work in partnership and for the highest benefit of your partner is important. People have different ideas of how that looks for them. I think finding a partner who shares your goals and outlook is incredibly important too. I know some people look down on the term partner. But I’ve seen spouses I wouldn’t consider partners so I confer a great deal of meaning to the term.
I get that. I've gotten wind of some crazy stuff, from both sexes, the last few months, so my divorce-outrage-faucet has run completely dry. People seem so normal for decades and then... Ugh. No, you didn't.
I feel like when it comes to others you don’t really know the truth of their relationships. You only know who that person is to you. I have an ex who was a great friend and absolutely toxic as a boyfriend.
The interaction between two people can lead to very different behaviors. People also behave very differently depending on their environment