Oddbean

This is interesting Laesarin. Most men consider marriage to be a huge financial risk right now due to alimony and child support, and they very often get shafted on custody of their own children. How do you think this squares up with the ideas discussed here? There seems to be a deep suspicion on both sides of this equation.

It depends a lot on which country or state you live in; where the divorce is filed. German women don't do very well out of divorce. They often get nothing or very little, and custody is usually shared. Florida is like winning the divorce lottery, I hear.

That is unfortunate. It would be great to see humans achieve a balanced a fair solution to this - although it’d be even better to see both men and women treat each other well enough it was a non-issue. But that’s just me being a dreamer.

I think the government is the wrong place to try to achieve balance. This is the sort of thing that was handled in a marriage contract. Fathers used to make sure their star-struck, infatuated daughters got a good deal and a good deal is not "she arrives penniless and leaves penniless and then has to go grovel to a judge or beg her ex to pay his child support".

I suspect a lot of divorced women are just receiving defacto welfare. I.e. even when they theoretically receive alimony or child support, the government has trouble pulling the money from their exes (because they disappear or quit their jobs) and the state fronts the money. On the other hand, some men really are being bled dry and not getting their visitation and custody rights respected. Both can be true.

I also think that there are many truths here. Unfortunately, there is often a lack of fairness in dealing with the situation. There are too many feelings and disappointments involved. Which is unfortunately to the detriment of the children.

Agreed. The worst seems to happen when people feel like they need to preemptively act. That causes a reaction and then a reaction to the reaction and... I suspect that this is partly fear-based chaos because the current system is failing people, so they can't calm down.

That makes sense. I figured a cultural difference had to be at play. In the states I’m noticing a huge movement of men who have no interest in getting married because the woman can leave at any given point (and do in much higher numbers than the men) and basically bankrupt the men, along with depriving them of their children. I’m not saying we don’t have bastards here that women need to be able to escape from, just that the pendulum seems to have swung a different direction here, which has caused that same skepticism on the other gender’s behalf. As a side note, my wife’s desire to be a house wife was a pretty big part of my decision to propose. Her assistance at home unlocked a ton of freedom and even financial possibility for us. There is more than one way to make sure a woman isn’t trapped. It was my initiative to make sure the land was jointly held, that she had access to the same accounts I did, and to make sure she stayed (geographically) close to her own family and was in regular contact with them. (Means and a place to go is essential to any woman attempting to escape an abusive situation) I would encourage any young woman to seek a man that does the same - and to consider the opposite a huge red flag. It’s a comfort to me that she’s set up this way, as it removes a temptation to get away with any misbehavior or taking for granted - as I don’t have to worry about feeling like I could get away with it. If that makes any sense.

Yes, reducing occasion to sin, for both sides. 💯 I have always had that sort of setup, and that has actually reduced my incentive to leave, when we've had an argument. I can leave with enough for a down-payment on an apartment and a car, just by grabbing my phone and walking down the street to my uncle's house. Feeling trapped induces panic and increases sneakiness and vindictiveness.

There are very particular states where property is just split 50/50, after one day of marriage, and wealthy men in those states can get reamed, it's true. They think the entire world is like that, but it isn't. Divorce usually leaves women poorer. They often leave despite that, which should give us all pause.

Being able to work in partnership and for the highest benefit of your partner is important. People have different ideas of how that looks for them. I think finding a partner who shares your goals and outlook is incredibly important too. I know some people look down on the term partner. But I’ve seen spouses I wouldn’t consider partners so I confer a great deal of meaning to the term.

I get that. I've gotten wind of some crazy stuff, from both sexes, the last few months, so my divorce-outrage-faucet has run completely dry. People seem so normal for decades and then... Ugh. No, you didn't.

I feel like when it comes to others you don’t really know the truth of their relationships. You only know who that person is to you. I have an ex who was a great friend and absolutely toxic as a boyfriend.