I think the 'people use twitter because they're addicted' can be a bit disingenuous, people on twitter also have meaningful interactions with people, there are communities there etc etc... (you know the things nostr aspires to). I'm not saying that the addiction / ragebait thing doesn't also exist, but that's not the whole picture. 

 > Because nostr doesn't give them enough stimulation high they need from other algo platforms that can be more predictable. 
I still stand firm on this however. The term addiction disregards there are social positive interactions that result in more stimulation. Yeah I think twitter probably has plenty of positive real world social capacity and germination. I don't mean to assume it's all unhealthy. I was a Facebook communities person, I made almost exclusively real-world connections personally and professionally. 

I'm arguing over the lack of commitment because of convenience, the urge to fall back to old habits when things "calm down". 

The people you mention are also likely not the people I'm targeting. Because the same could be said for why I'm here anyway.  

 I've never used Twitter either. Unless, you include clicking on links from nkstr posts to be using it. Also, I think it's a matter of ignorance, as well. Heavy centralized social media users may take a trip to nostr only to subconsciously refuse to acknowledge the realization that they don't need social media to be as big a part of their everyday lives as they imagined. It's sad, tbh. Nostr needs to have an abundance of clients in all markets if it wants to succeed. 

 The best thing about nostr is that it has probably made more people leave social media entirely 

 Those are my feels, lately. I like our eReader idea, but I'm increasingly aware of the fact that I suck at social media. It's a whole thing.

Rule one of social media: always agree with whatever the richest man in the room is saying.
Rule two of social media: always agree with whatever the second-richest man in the room is saying, unless it contradicts the first man. 

 Rule three: don't write snarky things like that. They don't like that. 😅  

 But that's pretty much all I do and I have a lot of fun!  

 I'm blocking you🤷‍♂️. 

 If that's what you wish, so be it. 😁  

 They can all go flux theirselves if they don’t like us. Truly.  

 I've been told I'm not agreeable enough. Other girls are nicer. 🙄  

 Same. They can still all go cuckoo 😜 on theirselves. Granted I’m weird & most don’t immediately like me so probably best not to take my advice anyway. 😂 

 I still use the Fediverse loads, never been into X or whatever.

I keep going with this as technologically it’s interesting but those that have even heard of Nostr see it as right wing. I can only assume that means there’s more 0s than 1s in the code.

I just want to be loved… lol 

 Fair enough, yeah. I rely on follows to share other fun pleb things so I can see whats going on out there. I remember looking at some of the other popular platforms after the whole Parlor thing and was like wow this is just bad. I'm sure they were overloaded with attack bot accounts to make it look worse than it was, but almost every reply to a post contained at least one racial slur. Now I'm a degenerate who can appreciate edgy stuff so it was kind of funny at first, but it was too much to want to be around.

It was hard for the first few months to get a good follow list, but now I'm pretty happy although I'm sure I'm missing some fun stuff on occasion. It can be really overwhelming for new users.  

 one of the most interesting things about nostr is it makes a BIG difference to your experience who you follow

that's why i only have like 108 or so... they give me a second level reach into other things that are interesting but too noisy or don't interest me often but when my follows respond to them they tend to be interesting 

 Yeah I'd like to get there too! Also I'm glad to be one of your 108 follows :)

I should probably go for some pruning, I know I'm missing a lot of dev discussion I should be part of.  

 yeah, i think without any more devious methods of filtering stuff the best one is to pick good people to put replies into your feed and then if the replies are interesting they lead you to maybe something interesting, more often than not...

i think my philosophy of nostr following is more respectful... helps me keep stuff out that would make me mad and gives me enough to keep it interesting enough i'm still overdoing it 

 i luv ya but not sure i want U to follow me around  lol 

 Hmm, it's more that the there are these mechanisms that fill the void of discovery. The mechanisms assume you have come from and want bitcointwitter. Clients recommend bitcointwitter people, people who post in that style, primal trending sidebar does the same. Follows are funnelled into these posters and posts with lots of likes appear as 'trending'. 
Replying or appealing to the tastes of these people is sometimes the only possibility of interaction smaller accounts have. The rent you pay to post can be seen as posting popular bitcointwitter slogans. Emulating bitcointwitter is rewarded in engagement and zaps.

This is arguably worse than an algorithm lol. In terms of an obstacle to nostr's growth. (The most common complaint about nostr is that it's a bitcointwitter slogan chatroom).

The most used clients are microblogging types, following accounts instead of topics. There are barely any topics to follow (besides bitcointwitter talking points, although Meshtastic and Permaculture are promising).

Etc etc

 

 It's a major problem, not really been solved. Retention is low and the only reliable place to recruit from is bitcointwitter. No one outside of bitcointwitter wants bitcointwitter as a social media (even some of bitcointwitter want more variety, which they find on wider twitter, not here).

nostr:nevent1qqsx0e45zs9ken2yzhefmmyp09w9dnmgm4efszur2dgurxt8m73f6yszyzw2p0t52p6z663qxxwqu02vv7wfupr2nhrsarh4ts5stcjq2g6qkqcyqqq823cvyap7d 

 Yeah, they come here, post their Bitcoin meme stuff and then they go back to Twitter to have real conversations. 

 i wont frens   >=[ 

 Same. When I left Twitter, it was for real. I left there for a reason and that reason hasn't changed. 

 yeah, it's a little disheartening at times to try and engage with non-bitcoin or non-nostr stuff. 

 it's my first time to hear meshtatic and permaculture, is that another nostr clients?  

 No Meshtastic is a type of radio technology thing, permaculture is like gardening and homesteading type thing, content/ smaller communities here.

#meshtastic
#permaculture 

 I do the like the cooking community. I've actually been using a fair amount of the recipes that I've found from nostr:nprofile1qqsrrxknu7gxxnd7smc5mwwzn9djdm3uvg5tu40cn3x8l656esqa2zspzdmhxue69uhhqatjwpkx2urpvuhx2ue0guyv64. Thank you nostr:nprofile1qqsfhsknfhw6s0v59g0a6d48fple4tk8grdjf6newvkepcur6xwjjjqpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgqgjwaehxw309ac82unsd3jhqct89ejhxqgkwaehxw309aex2mrp0yhxummnw3ezucnpdejq6pne6f! I haven't focused as much as I'd like to on the gardening community. Thanks for the reminder! 

 nostr:nprofile1qqswgvmv65ja7706f5a0xe8ajcqdfvgdeeppt2jvx0kh06sggg6ykyqppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qys8wumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytn9d9h82mny0fmkzmn6d9njuumsv93k2tcpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0v9ru2a 's voyage app is worth keeping an eye on. It's one of a very very few attempts at topic-follow rather than personality/npub follow. There was another WIP client which was heavily focused on forum-style, but forgotten the name.

Things like this could help attract and keep people. 

Bitcoin posts and the general bitcointwitter chatroom posts wouldn't show up in unrelated topic forums, hopefully lol ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ 

 Thanks. I followed him/her. 

 "Nostr dev" complaining about reach and audience size, not understanding (or pretending not to) the nature of decentralized networks and their evolution and growth patterns.  

 Centralized or decentralized, the goal of a network is to reach people. That is the fundamental goal. If that is impaired, then there’s a fundamental problem and once again, the forest is missed for the trees. 

 He's just here to trash me with some concern-trolling. 

 What is concern-trolling?  

 When you pretend to be sad, when you're actually just scornful. 

 You misunderstand my use of the word "sad" there. I meant it like "pathetic to see" as in, it makes ME sad to see it. I'm not concerned for you nor pretending to be.  

 We need better DVM support, DVMs are a great content discovery tool, it's also a great way to start communities. Like someone may run a DVM for sports content, like F1 , Politics, Books and whatever they want.  

 I am not morally-opposed to content discovery. Without it, Nostr is just a high school redux, and don't nobody got time for that. 

 Nostr is a pretty good content discovery tool for BTC and Nostr things... 🤣 But I hope that folks got more than "content disxovery" from what I wrote above. 

 Seems like you're a little hard on yourself... Just because people don't respond doesn't mean that you aren't saying truths or your opinion doesn't matter 

 Feels like it.

And, you know, it's the Internet. I can't see the other person. If they don't respond, I don't even know if they saw it. Can they even see me? No idea. 

 Go deeper though, do you need them to see it for validation? 

 Go deeper though, why would I engage with someone who doesn't validate my presence? That's literally what simping is. It's the opposite of having conversations. Conversations go back-and-forth, like we're doing, now, and everyone's statement is at least acknowledged, even if you disagree with it.

That used to be what Nostr was like. It's usually just influencers stuff, now. One-way speech. Like, that note coulda been a newsletter. 

 For me, sometimes it's enough to just get my thought out. Whether people resonate or care enough to respond is not up to me 

 Okay, but I'm different. I'm a very social animal. I'm here for chit-chat.

If I just want to get my thought out, I write an article. Not that anyone reads my articles, but it bothers me less. 

 Fair enough. The only advice I could give you is that you're probably better off finding those connections is real life than behind a computer 

 Geez. Reading through this really does sound depressing.  

 You're here now so you can cheer us up! 🤣
 

 I'm really not sure how in this case.  

 I was legit in tears, today. Totally miserable. This is actually the first thread, in a long while, where multiple people showed up to talk, and it wasn't just them screaming at me to kiss some dude's derrier cuz HE'S IMPORTANT.

This has actually cheered me up. There are still some normal humans on Nostr. They haven't all run away. 😆  

 aawwweee. virtual 🫂 from us. Next time u feel alone, dm me we can go stream watch some crazy exhilarating film series that will cheer you up or transfer you to other world LOL ☺️🤣  

 I can go on some bitcoin rants if that will make you happier 

 Yes, we see. You are the most prolific person on nostr. This is why I have joked about you being the Martha Stewart of nostr. Your forest branding is so good. The citadel team is really building on a sound basis. There is also so much potential in what you could craft beyond casual conversations.

I feel like engagement got blown with the great spam attacks of 2024 and the rise of wot plus some clients being outbox and others not. 

I used to have more banger posts but I also haven't had many new developments to tinker with lately besides npub pro   

 Martha Stewart of nostr 😂 

 Creative, capable, funny, opinionated and makes stuffs.  

 it works. and its also hilarious. 

 🎯 

 😅I still don't understand relays. But, thanks! 

 oh really?!  LOL then I must have been doing something 😂
It is very hard to get a reference point on here because all I see are accounts that have been here over a year. But honestly, until I saw your nostr observations, it coincide with what I have experienced as a noob.  

 just to clarify- when I say account over a year I am talking about the one's with high following and high engagement. Eg devs or bitcoin lovers. So I thought maybe those type of accounts are the one that resonates with some people here. 

 Bitcoin lovers seem to resonate with nearly everyone on here. Though I do question their belief in the network, at times. Although, it does seem a bit more polarized when it comes to devs. 

 yeah I noticed that with the devs too. 

 Most devs seem to have very different and very articulate visions for their clients and Nostr as a whole. They butt heads too often from what I've seen and many aren't very open or, in the worst of cases, completely closed off to user feedback.  

 I noticed that too because at one point responded to fiatjaf's comment about some users' feedback that he was whining about.  

 I haven't observed enough of his posts to comment on that, tbh. Do you remember what the comment was or maybe which post it was? 

 nostr:nevent1qqs00yxqdyx0gd3cpy3mtqee4pp4nl9pa3c93dkac7dur923q9j5j6cprfmhxue69uhks6tkv46xzmrt9ehx7um5wgcjucm0d5hsygzh9xkejxn7pjugjuww6g6gwkqs27gd2ytq5zdj95xc7ww2wck7zypsgqqqqqqslgsa2v 

 Most devs have left nostr. 

 I've only been here for about three months so I'll take your word for it. That explains why so many clients have so many bugs and are left in a stage of infancy. 

 Was very vibrant 12-18 months ago.  We used to have an account called "Nostr Report" that used to show case 3-6 (sometimes more) innovations every day.  

Now it's quite hard to find even one.  I normally trawl through this site here and pop anything interesting on r nostr.  But its increasingly difficult to find interesting stuff.  Other projects invest in their devX and it pays off.  Nostr didnt.  Though Nostr still has quite a few payroll devs thanks to the amazing generosity of jack.  

https://oddbean.com/ 

 Some of that is true I believe, but I think that's often how we grow and build new things even if we don't agree on everything. Trust me there is plenty I don't agree about, but I'm still here and still building. I think it's a bit of a misnomer that we all have to get along for success to occur. Bitcoin protocol is still highly successful despite it being mostly anarchistic, and we have a much larger scope. 

>in the worst of cases, completely closed off to user feedback.
That is a universal software development problem unfortunately, very often (outside of nostr) these people can even be heavily funded or even building highly successful tools we use today. If you look at my notes, I regularly harp on inability to accept user feedback and criticism. To be fair some of the largest development firms (Apple, Microsoft etc) they aren't really open to feedback. Some individual products have corralled feedback mechanisms but it's highly confined to their vision. Point is, it's often too difficult to send feedback so most users don't. Not saying it's morally right or wrong, but this issue is prolific and generally accepted, only in open source are developers highly exposed to their customers directly. Most developers (including product staff, making design decisions), are paid ones, working in corporate settings shielded completely from their users, on purpose. It's just a different world and we have to learn how to work in it.  

 I wasn't suggesting that we all need to get along to progress but more cooperation among devs and users, regardless of differences of opinion, would be nice. You don't have to like someone to realize that a particular piece of feedback or recommendation they gave you holds potential value if implemented. Also, many devs don't seem to possess your approach to inclusion. 

That's disappointing to hear. Though, I'm not all too surprised to hear that. As for funding, I think nostr might have taken the wrong approach to that matter. I'll elaborate on that another time, perhaps. We'll see what happens. I just hope we see better cooperation fairly soon.

 

 Wrote a long reply, nostrudel reloaded :( 

> I just hope we see better cooperation fairly soon.

I was just going to say, in my opinion we're getting along very well over all. We have our disagreements but the better ideas will win eventually. Speaking as a member of one of the few (if not only) nostr development companies, who believe in this cooperation. But we also aggressively fork and do whatever TF we want to when necessary. 

@Silberengel suggested we move our bickering out of public relays if we can help it. Keep it away from the users. Im of the opinion any highly skilled & motivated individual become difficult to manage, in a corporate setting this is just hidden from the users, but forums and twitter are alive with software devs bickering. If you are unfamiliar, just look up about any highy ranked post on hacker news (https://news.ycombinator.com/) you'll notice most developers don't cooperate well XD 

Depends on your definition of cooperate I suppose. 

I'd like to hear your ideas on funding, my ears are always up when money is involved :) That said I have never received a dime for MY software yet. Our team has been pretty big critics of the current funding systems as well.  

 It's normal for devs to bicker in dev forums, and that should be visible. But if we want to attract a more diverse clientel, that probably shouldn't be what they're all staring at, when they show up. 😂

At least, give them a means to turn it off. 

 100% 

 yeah to be clear, should be 100% public, just out of normie feeds XD 

 I'm glad to hear about most of the devs getting along very well for the most part.

That could be a good idea, especially if developers who are more open to user feedback are frequently present in the group. I will definitely look that up. Thanks.

As I understand it, the more major clients are funded by people like Jack and such, right? I've just been wondering how nostrs retention rate would've performed if it was solely crowdfunded. Like the launching of a bunch of different clients at once, observing which ones are used the most for maybe the first month or so, then have a crowdfunding round for those clients and other future projects that get a significant amount attention through feeds. Maybe some form of advertisement on clients that aren't strictly social media-based. 

 Yeah, that would be users choosing which clients they prefer, but they went a different route. Various nonprofit and investment funds picking particular clients they like, basically, with no effective feedback-loop from users.

I wrote about it, once, under my other (much bigger) nym.

https://habla.news/a/naddr1qvzqqqr4gupzphtxf40yq9jr82xdd8cqtts5szqyx5tcndvaukhsvfmduetr85ceqq49w6re94mk2ttgv9mx2ttwda6z6ctswpkxjety94nx7u3dvykkwunpde6z6mpev9mxcms7c8sha 

 Well, having nonprofits and investment funds funding the project will always lead to dev teams basing their work strictly on investor incentives. That's also just a rehashing of a typical corporate business model. You know... the kind of business that so many nostr users seen to want to escape from. Point is, that's probably not the best way to fund a freedom of everything protocol.

Btw, I'll promise I'll donate to GitCitadel once I have a better grasp of it.

I'll read that later😁. 

 Yeah, it's mostly devs and Bitcoiners. But we're the wrong kind of devs, so we don't count. 😅 

There's like a dev ingroup and The Rest. 

 Lol in other words you're not sitting at the top of the dev ivory tower? Which means your input means squat? 

Well, screw them🤷‍♂️. 

 Even Michael, the head of our project, hasn't passed 1000. It's a brutal grind, for months and months, just to get to a point where you can post something and have someone usually respond.
Hence, the low retention rate. 🤷‍♀️   

 wow that is some tough grind. I also noticed that some accounts on here aren't active for 2 months or more. I was browsing nostrudel.ninja and found accts that were not active.  

 Yeah, I purge my list every month. 

 Do you have like a threshold of inactivity when you purge them? 

 2 months. I can always add them back, if they return. 

 it makes sense. 👌 

 You're not alone with creating new topics. I normally talk about hypnosis, paranormal and spiritual awakening or life lessons. The latter is not too bad. But the rest is very quiet LOL 😂
Maybe not a lot of interests or people on here are too shy to discuss these things! 🤣 

 yeah, that's the hierachy of influencers that is a replica of legacy media. the nostr algorithm will break that pattern