Oddbean new post about login | logout yeah I noticed that with the devs too.
Most devs seem to have very different and very articulate visions for their clients and Nostr as a whole. They butt heads too often from what I've seen and many aren't very open or, in the worst of cases, completely closed off to user feedback.
I noticed that too because at one point responded to fiatjaf's comment about some users' feedback that he was whining about.
I haven't observed enough of his posts to comment on that, tbh. Do you remember what the comment was or maybe which post it was?
nostr:nevent1qqs00yxqdyx0gd3cpy3mtqee4pp4nl9pa3c93dkac7dur923q9j5j6cprfmhxue69uhks6tkv46xzmrt9ehx7um5wgcjucm0d5hsygzh9xkejxn7pjugjuww6g6gwkqs27gd2ytq5zdj95xc7ww2wck7zypsgqqqqqqslgsa2v
I've been thinking this, lately, as well. Most newbies don't actually want to show up and see a feed full of #devs arguing about algorithms and tiered storage, or whatnot. That's an immediate turn-off, even if it sometimes gets more interesting for users, once they've figured out how all this stuff works. Lots of devs actually have OtherTopics. They just rarely post about them because the dev-y stuff is what gets clicks (from other devs). Since devs are inclined to stay on Nostr, however, and there are so many devs, it would be better for all of us if they/we talked more about our OtherTopics and there be a dev community relay where we could talk our dev stuff. So, I started one, that I will manually curate: https://devs.nostr1.com/ It just picks up keywords that sound "devish", like "C++" or "NDK" or "devs". nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzqaw3y9q68yvef3qxy5qlz4wzud8yr2xre7d7l8jd055cy569350zqqswm0f2ewfkh850jryamx6kxqev8enyghjpg5tzez9vqrvf85gtakgqsp87k
@cloud fodder could you pipe or negentropy or whatever it is, some other relays into the feed? Maybe from theforest and damus?
sure, ill add some streams to it tomorrow 🦖
Do I have the keyword filter setup right? Does it pull the whole thread, or only the note containing the keyword?
with keywords it does a basic substring match on content.. you could allow tags for replies, but it could get spammy..
Should I have an npub allow list? It's just the keywords, at the moment, like on Christpill.
might be good to have some npubs in addition ya, like if u can find a dev list to import or something..
I have a big list, actually. On the wiki. I'll go whitelist them all. I'm going to do an "AND", then, so that their bread baking or guitar-playing posts don't show up.
mmm, right but if u do the and itll *only allow those pubkeys (and only if they post the keywords)..
@Derek Ross @Michael J @finrod @Daniel Wigton @Sebastix @mleku @ChipTuner @The Beave @LibertyGal @liminal @jb55 @elsat @DanConwayDev @PABLOF7z @nielliesmons @verbiricha @fiatjaf @hodlbod @JeffG @OceanSlim @The Fishcake🐶🐾 @calle 👁️⚡👁️ @rabble @Vitor Pamplona @utxo the webmaster 🧑💻 @Karnage @semisol @Alex Gleason 🐍 @Vic @melvincarvalho @BITKARROT You will all start appearing on this relay, soon. Just FYI.
What am I doing?
I've put you on a list. 😈 https://next.nostrudel.ninja/#/lists/naddr1qvzqqqr4xqpzplfq3m5v3u5r0q9f255fdeyz8nyac6lagssx8zy4wugxjs8ajf7pqq4xc6tnw3ez6vtyvvmnjcfhxgkk2efexckngc3hx5kkzd34xckkgve4xymxvwtyvc6kyegtz3a8d
Please dont do this. Ask first. Could you take me off the list. Thanks.
Perfect! I'll be starting this one soon, for getting the NIP talk over here (even more dev-talk lol): https://cdn.satellite.earth/e81942903addd15dab85b3d302c2000ccb401accf6b30c83bb424259af72e144.png
I really want something like Amethyst multiprofiles, but the ability to switch last second before clicking post. And/or a toggle to remind me to use a hashtag for categorizing the post since its 2024 and we have no standard for full text search. Then i could split my posts between dev stuff, reading, fitness, meming/shitposting etc
This problem can be solved with an algorithm that evalutes each event by taking the weighted sum of all the interactions seen on that event, where a user model defines weights for a set of profiles. A positive weight means interactions from this profile increase the ranking of the event this profile interacted with. A negative weight does the opposite. All the events are sorted by rank, and the top results are shown for an evaluation over a given timespan. Previously shown events are exluded from subsequent evaluations.
Yep all i wanna do is Hit that link and browse…. And turn off other clients. Way to go @Silberengel 😁
Do you mind, if I add you as a moderator to the relay? Then you can also add devs to the allow list, as you find them.
Most devs have left nostr.
I've only been here for about three months so I'll take your word for it. That explains why so many clients have so many bugs and are left in a stage of infancy.
Was very vibrant 12-18 months ago. We used to have an account called "Nostr Report" that used to show case 3-6 (sometimes more) innovations every day. Now it's quite hard to find even one. I normally trawl through this site here and pop anything interesting on r nostr. But its increasingly difficult to find interesting stuff. Other projects invest in their devX and it pays off. Nostr didnt. Though Nostr still has quite a few payroll devs thanks to the amazing generosity of jack. https://oddbean.com/
Some of that is true I believe, but I think that's often how we grow and build new things even if we don't agree on everything. Trust me there is plenty I don't agree about, but I'm still here and still building. I think it's a bit of a misnomer that we all have to get along for success to occur. Bitcoin protocol is still highly successful despite it being mostly anarchistic, and we have a much larger scope. >in the worst of cases, completely closed off to user feedback. That is a universal software development problem unfortunately, very often (outside of nostr) these people can even be heavily funded or even building highly successful tools we use today. If you look at my notes, I regularly harp on inability to accept user feedback and criticism. To be fair some of the largest development firms (Apple, Microsoft etc) they aren't really open to feedback. Some individual products have corralled feedback mechanisms but it's highly confined to their vision. Point is, it's often too difficult to send feedback so most users don't. Not saying it's morally right or wrong, but this issue is prolific and generally accepted, only in open source are developers highly exposed to their customers directly. Most developers (including product staff, making design decisions), are paid ones, working in corporate settings shielded completely from their users, on purpose. It's just a different world and we have to learn how to work in it.
I wasn't suggesting that we all need to get along to progress but more cooperation among devs and users, regardless of differences of opinion, would be nice. You don't have to like someone to realize that a particular piece of feedback or recommendation they gave you holds potential value if implemented. Also, many devs don't seem to possess your approach to inclusion. That's disappointing to hear. Though, I'm not all too surprised to hear that. As for funding, I think nostr might have taken the wrong approach to that matter. I'll elaborate on that another time, perhaps. We'll see what happens. I just hope we see better cooperation fairly soon.
Wrote a long reply, nostrudel reloaded :( > I just hope we see better cooperation fairly soon. I was just going to say, in my opinion we're getting along very well over all. We have our disagreements but the better ideas will win eventually. Speaking as a member of one of the few (if not only) nostr development companies, who believe in this cooperation. But we also aggressively fork and do whatever TF we want to when necessary. @Silberengel suggested we move our bickering out of public relays if we can help it. Keep it away from the users. Im of the opinion any highly skilled & motivated individual become difficult to manage, in a corporate setting this is just hidden from the users, but forums and twitter are alive with software devs bickering. If you are unfamiliar, just look up about any highy ranked post on hacker news (https://news.ycombinator.com/) you'll notice most developers don't cooperate well XD Depends on your definition of cooperate I suppose. I'd like to hear your ideas on funding, my ears are always up when money is involved :) That said I have never received a dime for MY software yet. Our team has been pretty big critics of the current funding systems as well.
It's normal for devs to bicker in dev forums, and that should be visible. But if we want to attract a more diverse clientel, that probably shouldn't be what they're all staring at, when they show up. 😂 At least, give them a means to turn it off.
I'm glad to hear about most of the devs getting along very well for the most part. That could be a good idea, especially if developers who are more open to user feedback are frequently present in the group. I will definitely look that up. Thanks. As I understand it, the more major clients are funded by people like Jack and such, right? I've just been wondering how nostrs retention rate would've performed if it was solely crowdfunded. Like the launching of a bunch of different clients at once, observing which ones are used the most for maybe the first month or so, then have a crowdfunding round for those clients and other future projects that get a significant amount attention through feeds. Maybe some form of advertisement on clients that aren't strictly social media-based.
Yeah, that would be users choosing which clients they prefer, but they went a different route. Various nonprofit and investment funds picking particular clients they like, basically, with no effective feedback-loop from users. I wrote about it, once, under my other (much bigger) nym. https://habla.news/a/naddr1qvzqqqr4gupzphtxf40yq9jr82xdd8cqtts5szqyx5tcndvaukhsvfmduetr85ceqq49w6re94mk2ttgv9mx2ttwda6z6ctswpkxjety94nx7u3dvykkwunpde6z6mpev9mxcms7c8sha
Well, having nonprofits and investment funds funding the project will always lead to dev teams basing their work strictly on investor incentives. That's also just a rehashing of a typical corporate business model. You know... the kind of business that so many nostr users seen to want to escape from. Point is, that's probably not the best way to fund a freedom of everything protocol. Btw, I'll promise I'll donate to GitCitadel once I have a better grasp of it. I'll read that later😁.
same, thanks
Yeah, I had that idea, with timing relay subscriptions, a while back. Useful.
the nostr algorithm mirrors the approach of deep learning at a higher level of abstraction. it's as if we've all been tinkering around with a single layer neural network without exploiting the possibity of leveraging other nostr profiles to filter incoming events through a deep network of dynamically evolving algorithms and user specified weighting models
I like their idea of forking algo's too. in my concept of the nostr algorithm, you will be able to fork algorithms as well as weighting models, and compose your own custom model from models of other profiles you trust, which could be human or AI
Yup :Check: Fork it for a forked convo. Write an article about it to go in depth. Quote it in a chat message for gossiping about it somewhere else.
Add "code"
cool, ill grab this list and try to track down whats happen
now streaming theforest, damus -> devs too 🦖
Your first job as dev relay moderator is adding "3878d95db7b854c3a0d3b2d6b7bf9bf28b36162be64326f5521ba71cf3b45a69" to the list of moderators, as you accidentally locked me out. 😅 Tells me "not your relay", when I try to change the moderation list.
@cloud fodder !! When he wakes up lol 😂
His daily TODO list, from me. 😅
gm! 😁 mods cant change the moderator list.. only owners can.. does that seem like a good setting? i had pondered this one, if it should allow mods to change other mods. 🤔 your relay owner is your other account i believe..
I just tried both accounts, and it didn't work.
sent u a simplx
His daily TODO list, from me. 😅
gm! 😁 mods cant change the moderator list.. only owners can.. does that seem like a good setting? i had pondered this one, if it should allow mods to change other mods. 🤔 your relay owner is your other account i believe..
I just tried both accounts, and it didn't work.
sent u a simplx
Thanks! I'm using NIP-29 for groups for now so only a handful of relays can be used for groupchat atm. I'm also implementing nostr:npub1jlrs53pkdfjnts29kveljul2sm0actt6n8dxrrzqcersttvcuv3qdjynq's proposal that doesn't require it but the UX is a bit different.
gm! 😁 mods cant change the moderator list.. only owners can.. does that seem like a good setting? i had pondered this one, if it should allow mods to change other mods. 🤔 your relay owner is your other account i believe..
I just tried both accounts, and it didn't work.
sent u a simplx
sent u a simplx
