Oddbean new post about login | logout Expect the same or higher FUD on lightning as you have seen on #Bitcoin layer 1. Ie - Follow the money!! As more people realize how attacking Bitcoin first layer only made it more decentralized and secure, it makes perfect sense that capturing the 2nd layer also moves into focus. Imagine telling people that Lightning will not scale when it has grown ~ 20,000 % over the last couple of years. It IS scaling and becoming easier to use as companies building on it (like Breez) solve problems that bring on the masses. Other scaling solutions like Fedimint, integrate and scale further. Super exciting times in as the builders - build. Yes, still things to work on but saying lightning is dead, is akin to saying Bitcoin was dead for the last 14 years. Ps - on a personal note, I use it every day (as many of you do on Nostr) and it seems to be “scaling” just fine.
Do you think lightning could reach visa/mastercard status eventually?
Think of it as the highway that connects the cities. (Cities are fedimints) Early builders were building one way back end gravel roads. (Liquidity demands that create choke points on the one way roads). That problem is being solved!
That's exactly how I have been visualizing it. My curiosity about fedimint is how large these federations might become... will cities have them or moreso families? Maybe somewhere inbetween.
Although I am a fan of the project, I don't like Fedimint being referred to as a scaling solution. it is a fully custodial solution and loses many properties that make Bitcoin what it is.
Fair - but some trade offs are required to scale to 8 billion people. If you realize that the builders of those solutions think similar to you, (Bitcoin maxi’s) you can imagine how they are creating checks and balances to ensure it is fully backed to bitcoin.
No doubt, we will soon see a mass adoption of lightning. We are just one documentary or one case study away that can prove how lightning smoothly integrates and succeeds in daily life exchange with any 3rd party. Once this type of video or paper gain 1-2 M views/ Impressions, we can expect a 10% adoption rate This means 100k new lightning users after 1 hit story. I am searching for this example, and once I finish this research, very eager to write a report on it for further content developments.
Jeff, I've been a longtime listener, reader, and fan. Thank you for your patience and the thoughtful way you explain Bitcoin, the monetary system, and how our future may unfold due to the deflationary pressures of technology in an inflationary world. With Bitcoin, we have hope for a brighter, decentralized future. With Lightning, we hope for a peer-to-peer economy at scale. Thanks again.
🧡💜🙏
Every morning, I make a large cup of coffee and get some Jeff Booth on YT TV. I especially enjoyed this Fold 34 keynote this morning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nw7lHXuzKo
Thank you for putting your brain in the game. I have written a short piece about rewarding Bitcoin adoption. https://stacker.news/items/421360/r/Nuttall
if your pay for Bitcoin was at or below costs, would that lead to a zero tax event, if you only held the BTC, and eventually, use it as collateral for a loan?
Just for that I had to scale you some sats.
🙏
ไม่ว่าจะเส้นทางใดที่เราเลือก ทั้งหมดนั้นคือทางรอด #Siamstr nostr:nevent1qqsdur0czzm3e23jtqqhm6nc7ehhgmdf52h3j7etcg8lklzmjz5hygcpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfdupzpqlgrr0man8226c0252hdvla8xn62rsas9vngdgqx686ppwvm9jtqvzqqqqqqyq0zzvh
self custodial lightning is a pain in the ass, custodial wallets work well. But this leads us down the road of trusted third parties again, i dont know if that is a great solution for freedom money?
Self-custodial Lightning is a rabbit hole, and we’re here to help people who want to explore it for themselves learn how.
it should be easy, not a rabbit hole imo. nobody wants to use complicated stuff for simple things like buying a coffee.
I’m ok with that for day to day spending
me mostly as well - but nobody got into bitcoin for day to day spending. And sooner or later a government will bully a lightning wallet provider into censoring or freezing funds...
Lightning works well, but it is getting more & more centralized to a select few big wallet providers. I can't see it being decentralized unfortunately. Running a Lightning node is multiple orders of magnitude more involved than just a regular Bitcoin node, especially trying to recover after a crash with no mirrored server & getting funds back on a Watchtower node. Lots of Dev work needed on the back end to make it more friendly for people tosuccessfully run their own Lightning Node and keep it decentralized.
absolutely agree. its a long way to go if dont want a paypal for bitocin.
ah that's interesting. I'd be screwed with that since I barely understand a computer outside of word processors I can learn but I'd darn sure prefer someone creates an AI to manage troubleshoot and correct issues for me
Sometimes Lightning is described as it will be frequently used by people having their own Lightning wallets. I believe it will be a technology used to scale Bitcoin in the future. But I it will be very rare for individuals to use it, in the same way few people are their own ISPs today. Instead higher layers will serve “the masses”.
I think people are referring to self custodial lighting. You’re right that everything works well when you’re using a custodial solution. Most people are going to use custodial solutions. It’s the unfortunate reality. Most people will never have a UTXO or independently manage their own Lightning channels and liquidity. Yes, bitcoin and Lightning will scale but just not in the way that we would all prefer.
Can be self custodial - Like Breez, and allow liquidity in larger LSP’s The difference (imo) is that the trade off is some centralization of LSP’s because of efficiency, while keeping them honest through the free market. (Ie - if they raise prices too high, people flee to competing solutions.
I don’t view Breez as self custodial. They appear to manage liquidity by being a “man in the middle” for payments. It seems like they don’t custody payments for very long, but for a brief period they take possession of your funds. I think it’s great that they do so because self-custodial Lightning is difficult to manage. I just don’t think they should say they are self-custodial when they aren’t 100% self-custodial. I maintain that we’re moving now into a custodial world for most people. We’ll need to limit the custodial touch points and risks through smart technology (like Breez) and geo-distributed federations. https://image.nostr.build/3c5de55e420a17323c36cae0bf0520ac9f65234c77c851145f6099a5a47f140c.jpg
We intercept the payment, we don't have access to the user funds. You're also confusing trust and custody.
You only don’t have access to user funds because you choose not to access them, correct? It seems from your knowledge base that your software could change the payment details to access funds if you wanted. Anyway, sounds like a cool and useful solution but my point is that if you have control over funds it’s not self custodial. Perhaps “trust-minimized” would be a more accurate term. I haven’t dug into your source code so I might be totally wrong about whether your software has control over payment funds. Please let me know if I’m wrong about that.
Technically, any lightning node can intercept htlcs, it they can't access the funds because they don't have the preimage. So it's incorrect. There's an optional trust with using zero-conf channels (post interception). If users are choosing to use zero-conf channels, they trust the LSP not to double spend till confirmation. However, this is just one option of the LSP model.
I'm not a techie. Would a large increase in individuals running a node lead to better scaling?
Unfortunately no. I understand why you might think so but running a node is primarily for your own benefit. Running a node helps you to verify your account balances and transactions while preserving your privacy. It doesn’t increase the overall transactional capacity of the bitcoin network. I’m happy to drill down into these concepts if you would like further detail. Just let me know!
thanks, I appreciate the help I get that there's a benefit running my own node as a self custodial thing. that does interest me I thought that by opening a channel using my own liquidity, I'd be increasing the scaling of the network (if ever so small degree,)
Apologies, I realize from your question that I gave your a partial answer. I assumed that when you said “node” you were referring to a node on the bitcoin network. I see from your question that you’re thinking about a Lightning node. Yes, if you open up a channel with your own liquidity you are slightly helping the network. To make a difference you will need to open multiple channels to other relevant nodes so that your node is a relevant participant in the network. You should also get the other side of the channel to add liquidity too so the channel is more balanced. Your Lightning node will need to be online and reliable to make a difference (so you can’t just run it on your phone). I’m not a Lightning node expert so perhaps others can weigh in here.
I guess one of the questions about running a node, is do I put the asset at risk of hacking? does a noob get themselves into trouble with maintaining security?
Running a bitcoin node does not put your bitcoin at risk. Running a lightning node does put your bitcoin at risk. It is quite difficult right now to run a lightning node. The biggest risk seems to be forced channel closings that consume bitcoin as fees. This post explains some of the gotchas that happen when you’re running your own Lightning node: https://blog.mutinywallet.com/mutiny-wallet-faq/
The first improvement needs to be the default for every non-custodial Lightning wallet with zero funds in it, to receive payments just as easily as a 0 BTC address.
Stay in good spirits and health
Hi, I am among the unfortunate victims of the FTX scam, a situation that has resulted in the loss of my entire savings, totaling around $20,000. The distressing aspect of this ordeal is not just the financial loss but the subsequent actions taken by SBF and Sullivan & Cromwell, the involved debtors. Following the success of their global heist, it appears that, rather than working towards justice for the affected customers, they are prioritizing their own interests, demonstrating a complete disregard for the well-being of those who have suffered. To witness such blatant exploitation of innocent people for personal gain is not only disheartening but also raises concerns about the moral and ethical compass of those involved. Their actions can only be described as mentally and spiritually sick, going beyond mere financial misconduct. The significance of this situation cannot be overstated for me, as the funds lost were an integral part of my financial stability. I am reaching out to you with the hope that you might consider extending a helping hand during this challenging time. Any assistance however small that you could provide to navigate through the complexities of this situation would be immensely appreciated. I believe in the power of collective compassion and the willingness of individuals to make a difference in the lives of those facing adversity. I understand that you may have your own commitments and limitations, but even the smallest gesture can have a meaningful impact. Thank you for taking the time to read my plea, and I sincerely hope that you may find it in your heart to offer assistance during this trying period. Your kindness will not be forgotten, and I am immensely grateful for any support you can provide. Lightning Address : appealforassistanceftxscamvictim@geyser.fund BTC : bc1q9vfmfwj6av9pxj50r6xyl652mwhqvw5ds86nw2
Can lightning scale adequately without shared UTXOs? Is there another method I'm not aware of that exists or has been proposed to solve the scaling issue of theoretical fees vs population? #asknostr nostr:nevent1qqsdur0czzm3e23jtqqhm6nc7ehhgmdf52h3j7etcg8lklzmjz5hygcpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ez6ur4vgh8wetvd3hhyer9wghxuet5qgsg86qcm7lve6jkkr64z4mt8lfe57jsu8vpty6r2qpk37sgtnxevjcrqsqqqqqp602ljw
The only other one AFAIK is Enigma
🇬🇧 Tune out the noise and focus on doing 'your little bit' to usher in the new world! Haters will always hate, so we must focus on our goal of making the world a better, fairer place for our kids and grandkids in a Bitcoin world! nostr:note1mcxlsy9hrj4rykqp0h483an0w3k6ng40r9ajhss0ld79hy9fwg3sm7fvcq
You're making everyone a disservice by trying to set up a religious adversarial mindset here. First, it makes sense to have such a mindset about Bitcoin itself, but not about a particular, optional and highly troubled L2 solution on top of it. Second, LN fatal shortcomings are well known by now, your position could have made sense some 6 years ago when we had to try and find out, in 2024 this sounds pathetic and delusional. nostr:note1mcxlsy9hrj4rykqp0h483an0w3k6ng40r9ajhss0ld79hy9fwg3sm7fvcq
Human nature dictates they will move towards the least painful solution. Self custody will never be mainstream, so lightning will continue to rise in use and popularity. Scaling will happen and it will be fine. The problem is the bitcoiners who prefer self custody versus the bitcoiners who prefer custodial solutions. Bitcoin does not care about this, it is only the emotions of the people who want to change other people.
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