Oddbean new post about login | logout You are choosing to not marry? But yeah, that assumption is part and parcel of how far we've fallen.
Of course I’m not going to marry. I’m traditional Christian. Marriage is only for those who need it because otherwise they can’t manage their lust. I’m also on track to be a nun and nuns don’t get married in traditional Christianity
If you're going to be a nun, sure, but... It's very traditional to get married, Christian or not. 😅
Everyone knows marriage is significantly older than Christianity but traditional Christianity holds celibacy higher than marriage and marriage wasn’t even a sacrament of the church until the 1100s.
Certain denominations hold celibacy higher for a very few people, those led by God to do so. Everyone else is supposed to obey the first command God issued "to be fruitful and multiply." I am not a catholic so I really DGAF about sacraments. Those make no sense to me. 😅
Sacraments exist in Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism… so who cares if you’re not one of the many different denominations within the catholic umbrella? What do you think a sacrament even is? You DGAF about BAPTISM?? Really? Are you not even baptized?
I am, but so what? It doesn't matter for my salvation. Married/single doesn't matter. Participating in communion doesn't. Are all those good things? Yes. But they aren't necessary at all for someone to be assured of their salvation, which is what I consider if primary importance.
No one said they are necessary for salvation. Is that what you think a sacrament is? Something necessary for salvation? What makes you think that? Having a salvation checklist type of thing is largely a prot belief
Well, I am mostly a protestant. So... What's your point? I don't see the point of emphasizing certain things as "sacraments."
I’m asking you why you “DGAF” about your own baptism if you “DGAF” about sacraments. Why “GAF” about marriage, do you think Jesus “DGAF” about his baptism either? Your perspective is one I have never come across before. A Christian who “DGAF” about their own baptism. I’m flabbergasted
Yup. I have that effect on people. Jesus was baptized to fulfill prophecy. Christians are supposed to be baptized to renounce all previous covenants in a public declaration of their acceptance of a new covenant with God. So, it can be a big deal, but it's not anywhere near as important as simply accepting Jesus as lord and savior. Not equivalent, not necessary, not a big deal.
If that’s all baptism is for you that’s sad to me. So for you baptism is just like…. Making a statement ? And that’s literally it?? That’s so…. Empty
Yup. Why complicate it? It's not empty. It's a declarative action. But it's not necessary. It's not as important as the important stuff.
No it’s empty compared to high church traditional Christianity. Because that’s just one tiny tiny small part of the initiation sacraments in Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and high church Protestantism. I’m genuinely so sad for you that you’re missing so much. I didn’t realize evangelicalism was that watered down!!!! This is really eye opening for me!! I had no clue
"high church." 🙄 I very much agree that modern evangelical protestantism is watered down.
Why are you rolling your eyes at “high church”? That’s what it’s called so why eye rolling emoji?
I know the term. I detest it. It's snobby.
You’re the only low church Christian I’ve met that thinks it’s snobby? Is that an evangelical thing too? Amish people and Quakers and other low church Christians don’t seem to care that I’ve talked too?? Anecdotally I guess but you’re the first person I’ve met with strong feelings about it
I have strong opinions about things that are dumb to have strong onions about, but, hey, I'm an idiot. 🤷♂️
You’re not an idiot I’m just sad that evangelicalism sucks so hard
I was raised in a Protestant church and Protestantism pushed me away from God not toward God. I went from Taoism to Deism to now back to Christianity because I found Orthodoxy. I'm not baptized and I don't go to church mostly due to none being near me but I plan to visit one as soon as I have the ability to.
I hope you’re able to!!! You could try planning a monastery trip! They sometimes have guest areas so you can stay overnight
I will look into this, thank you 🙏
No one said they were necessary for salvation? Eucharist: "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you." Baptism: Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” John 3:5 “Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’” Confession: "Whatever you hold loosed on earth is loosed in heaven and whatever you hold bound on earth is bound in heaven." So yes, someone said that. It was Jesus.
Cherry picking bible verses like this is usually extremely frowned upon in Catholicism and way more common with the sola scriptura crowd tbh but also these verses aren’t really stacking up to what you’re trying to say. Especially the baptism and confession ones. You’re leaning really far into Pelagianism. You can’t freewill your way through a checklist of sacraments as a way of buying salvation. Sorry. That’s genuinely a heresy in Catholicism, orthodoxy, and mainline Protestantism
What?! No. Sacraments are not a good work to earn God's favor. Sacraments are a visible sign of His grace. The church has always taught that baptism is necessary. The sacraments are the Avenue that God gave to humanity to encounter Him. Of course the caveat is that the sacraments are the Avenue that God gave us. He is not constrained by them and we can hope that He saves those who have no access to His sacraments as He did with those who lived before Christ. But God is free, but we are bound by the commands he gave us. I am not "cherry-picking" verses, those are some of the verses that the church herself references.
You are cherry picking verses and it’s very jarring when self identified Catholics do that because it’s so frowned upon in Roman Catholicism to do that. Like really really detested within Catholicism.
I have no idea how I am cherry-picking. Am I missing a broader context? Are there verses that say the opposite? Catholics aren't allowed to quote scripture? By your definition I can't quote scripture unless I post the Bible here whole and entire. What is frowned upon is using verses out of context in a way that the church herself never used them. That isn't what I am doing. I am using the verses as the church herself uses them.
You are cherry picking and simultaneously kind of butchering the catechism of the Roman Catholic church in the process w your attempt to idk summarize some of its entries on a few of the specific sacraments. Also calling the RCC “the church” to an Orthodox Catholic is p cringe. The RCC considers all orthodox sacraments valid but the reverse is not true at all so it’s just…. Quite Jarring.
Summa Theologiae, Tertia Pars, Q. 60 to 65. Q. 61 specifically: The necessity of the Sacraments My version is in portuguese. I'll try to find an english version so I can quote for you.
I’m familiar with it because I grew up in the RCC but I’m Orthodox now and Orthodox Catholics don’t particularly follow anything Aquinas wrote including the summa!
Now you got my attention! Would you mind explaining why?
He’s post schism! So he’s only venerated in western dominant churches like RCC, Anglican, Lutheran etc- he’s not venerated or even named as a saint at all in Eastern Orthodoxy. He was mid 1200s! Panis Angelicus is a phenomenal hymn tho!!!!!
What about Saint Augustin?
Saint Augustine of Hippo? He is pre-schism! Venerated by all who venerate saints!
Augustine, quoted on the Summa https://nostrcheck.me/media/1bcaf769395ec552ea5e15427ad78fadf6076543df3f9fd3d2900577621b50a0/06a3beb03361ec5446b462e6c1e1ffbe6caf1c0553dbaa5d532941d496d3c6d5.webp
I like that quote!!! Thank you!!
There are a lot of St. Augustine quotations on St. Thomas Aquinas works. I'm pretty sure he is the most quoted. Maybe you are familiarized with the Catena Aurea, a compilation of commentaries by the Church fathers. There are plenty quotes arguing the necessity of the Sacraments by authors like St. Jerome, St. John Chrysostom, St. Beda... This is my everyday reading: the daily Gospel and the commentaries on the Catena Aura about that passage
Mark 16:16 is also used by the Orthodox Church to demonstrate the necessity of baptism. Orthodox also hold the Eucharist as necessary. That is why the give it to infants at baptism.
I'm with the Beave on this.
You told me you’re not even a Christian so how are you with a Christian on this?
Marriage isn’t Christian. it’s way older than Christianity. So what do you mean?
Marriage is a natural institution, yes, so it predates the establishment of the Church on Earth. That's why bride and groom marry each other, directly. There is no third party necessary to create a marriage, and you don't need to be Christian to marry.
Our understanding of it changed a bit, after the significance, design, and purpose of marriage as a vocation was clarified for us by Christ and St. Paul. Obviously, the sacramental vows of a marriage conducted by a priest are the marital Gold Standard. People who don't accept marriage as a sacrament will naturally be perplexed by vows of celibacy, as they don't have the religious concept of "vocations".
I am not a Roman Catholic. Orthodox and Eastern Christians *do not* say vows. That is more of a much later western development due to western legal code. In orthodox marriages the bride and groom don’t speak really at all.
Well, I'm assuming that they have to confirm their assent, somehow. Otherwise, you could just have two random people stand there and marry them, without their consent. At least nod, or give a 👍 , or say "I do", or something.
Again, there are no vows. There is no “I do” that’s only in western Christianity due to the legal contract aspect of marriage in western theology that *does not exist in eastern theology* it’s considered worldly in eastern theology. In eastern Christianity the priest goes over whether or not the couple consents to being married *before* the wedding. Long before! It is a requirement in order to have a wedding in the first place. After receiving that consent the wedding can take place. Traditionally consent is received prior to the betrothal service which is separate from the wedding service even! But these days those services are often combined.
The bride is not given away in orthodox weddings like she is in western weddings (walked down the aisle by a father figure and then handed off to another man) because in eastern theology her being their of her own free will is a requirement for the marriage to take place.
Well, okay, that's just a dragged-out version. We also have to voice consent, beforehand, at confession.
It’s hard for western Christians to comprehend that there are no vows in orthodox weddings because vows are the main focus of the western weddings but in eastern weddings the main focus is the when the couple is crowned together. That’s why in the east the marriage liturgy is called “the rite of crowning” or the “mystery of crowning” 👑 👑
Maria, can you help me understand what “Orthodox Catholic” means. I assume this is different than Orthodox.
Eastern rite Catholics basically
“Catholics”
Eastern rite Catholics are in full communion with the Church of Rome which seems to be your church so why are you putting them in “” ??? Weird. I’m not eastern rite I’m Orthodox.
He's a real hardliner. It happens.
He’s also incorrect lol
Insane lmao I meant what u said
So you didn’t mean Eastern Rite Catholics? Why did you say that then?
Cuz you should be Catholic
You’re telling people who are already Catholic that they should be Catholic? Lol k
Papal supremacy
Yes you don’t agree with the pope about eastern rite Catholics but you’re a Roman Catholic? Why?
lol what 😂
You called eastern rite Catholics “Catholics” but the RCC doesn’t teach that and doesn’t even have closed communion or anything. Open to high church Protestants and Orthodox Christians according to canon law that I guess you also don’t agree with?
Yea i don’t agree with anything other than what i believe.
Oh you’re an independent Catholic? I thought you were Roman Catholic. My bad.
What is wrong with you. That’s ridiculous. I never said that. Find God
Decided to make a bunch of wiki pages, in response. 😅 https://wikistr.com/eastern-rite-catholics*fd208ee8c8f283780a9552896e4823cc9dc6bfd442063889577106940fd927c1
I hope he reads your wiki pages!! I muted him after he was saying he was sick of having this discussion as if I had tagged him into it (nobody did he just replied bc he wanted to lol) bc not only have I never discussed this w him before I quite literally have never discussed *anything* w him before and was completely unaware of his existence until yesterday when he had a little meltdown saying “find God” repeatedly and was massively trashing the structure of the church he claims to supposedly be a member of 🤨
Don't worry about it. He's been in a grumpy mood since the war broke out, understandably.
Nope. Orthodox Catholic is interchangeable with Orthodox Christian. This is an OCA church for example: https://image.nostr.build/d7b219f8391ee659dae2af8e8843c8fc53b4243f422aef649d583c732864ffa3.jpg
Confusing! What is the purpose of adding “Catholic” when the Orthodox and Catholic schism exists?
It literally wasn’t added after the schism. Catholic means universal. That’s why Romans, Orthodox, and most Protestants all say “I believe in one holy catholic apostolic church” in the creed. Anglo-Catholics and old Catholics and orthodox Catholics are all *not* in communion with Roman Catholics. Romans have never owned the word Catholic they’re just the largest group.
It's like how people from the USA are called "Americans", but Canadians and etc. are also Americans. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(disambiguation)
I'm not out here picking a fight. but Marriage is not only for people who 'need it' and cannot manage their lust. But yes your original point of not wanting to marry equates to being a feminist is strange. wild world we live in. division seems to be the objective.
For Vatican II Catholics marriage is primarily about having children. But I’m not a Roman Catholic and don’t adhere to Vatican II. For traditional Christians it is better to not marry unless your lust prevents you from doing so. Celibacy is considered a higher calling than marriage to traditional Christians.
Vatican II are not Catholic at all. The alter has been turned into a masonic table with the priest back to God Jesus Christ who was, is and ever shall be. Try doing that to a judge in court. It's the results of the full take over of the Authentic Catholic Church with removal of The Holy Ghost during WWII but they only have the buildings, Vatican on down. Authentic Catholics have the faith. There is proof anti pope john paul II moved the corner stone of Saint Peter's Tomb to Fatima, Portugal as was instructed for him to do by Our Lady (not the jewish mary) decades before.
A lot to unpack there but I want to note that Vatican II Catholic priests can still perform the liturgy ad orientem. There’s nothing in the Vatican II reform documents saying they have to face versus populum instead, that’s just been common practice since V2. If a parish wants services ad orientem they literally just have to ask. People usually ask for weddings or other special occasions. God is everywhere.
Have to go back in historicity and study the correct material. Takes many at least two years, especially if they suffer from cognitive dissonance.
Wdym? It takes more than two years to become a priest.
I did not talk about time of becoming a priest. I'm talking about the time it takes to read and study the material that proves what happened.
With Vatican II? It’s not a priority for me because I’m Orthodox but I’ve read through a lot of the paperwork that came out and I know that parishes can request ad orientem nbd!
The masses have been deceived, Orthodox, novas ordo vat II, trad rads, protestants, Muslims, Judaism that do not know who they actually worship, Zionist Christians, Zionist, none denominational Christians, born again, bible thumpers, etc etc.
So according to you only atheists and polytheists havent been “deceived” 🙄
No, I said no such thing. They would be included in the etc. So you expect me to list the whole kitchen sink for you. Study the material or not, up to you.
I know a lot more than you, you’ve only been studying for 2 years. That’s nothing. 🙄
You didn’t even get ad orientem right which is real basic ngl
That is not correct. I am sharing information you are not aware of, that is all.
I said it takes most people two years of study to understand the information (scanned ancient docs, etc) at the link I provided to you. I am not going to continue explaining what I said. Your responses indicate you are another close minded know it all and not the sharpest tool in the shed since I have to waste time explaining to you what I said or did not say. Last time, study the material I provided or not. It is your choice.
