Oddbean new post about login | logout Everyone knows marriage is significantly older than Christianity but traditional Christianity holds celibacy higher than marriage and marriage wasn’t even a sacrament of the church until the 1100s.
Certain denominations hold celibacy higher for a very few people, those led by God to do so. Everyone else is supposed to obey the first command God issued "to be fruitful and multiply." I am not a catholic so I really DGAF about sacraments. Those make no sense to me. 😅
Sacraments exist in Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism… so who cares if you’re not one of the many different denominations within the catholic umbrella? What do you think a sacrament even is? You DGAF about BAPTISM?? Really? Are you not even baptized?
I am, but so what? It doesn't matter for my salvation. Married/single doesn't matter. Participating in communion doesn't. Are all those good things? Yes. But they aren't necessary at all for someone to be assured of their salvation, which is what I consider if primary importance.
No one said they are necessary for salvation. Is that what you think a sacrament is? Something necessary for salvation? What makes you think that? Having a salvation checklist type of thing is largely a prot belief
Well, I am mostly a protestant. So... What's your point? I don't see the point of emphasizing certain things as "sacraments."
I’m asking you why you “DGAF” about your own baptism if you “DGAF” about sacraments. Why “GAF” about marriage, do you think Jesus “DGAF” about his baptism either? Your perspective is one I have never come across before. A Christian who “DGAF” about their own baptism. I’m flabbergasted
Yup. I have that effect on people. Jesus was baptized to fulfill prophecy. Christians are supposed to be baptized to renounce all previous covenants in a public declaration of their acceptance of a new covenant with God. So, it can be a big deal, but it's not anywhere near as important as simply accepting Jesus as lord and savior. Not equivalent, not necessary, not a big deal.
If that’s all baptism is for you that’s sad to me. So for you baptism is just like…. Making a statement ? And that’s literally it?? That’s so…. Empty
Yup. Why complicate it? It's not empty. It's a declarative action. But it's not necessary. It's not as important as the important stuff.
No it’s empty compared to high church traditional Christianity. Because that’s just one tiny tiny small part of the initiation sacraments in Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and high church Protestantism. I’m genuinely so sad for you that you’re missing so much. I didn’t realize evangelicalism was that watered down!!!! This is really eye opening for me!! I had no clue
"high church." 🙄 I very much agree that modern evangelical protestantism is watered down.
Why are you rolling your eyes at “high church”? That’s what it’s called so why eye rolling emoji?
I know the term. I detest it. It's snobby.
You’re the only low church Christian I’ve met that thinks it’s snobby? Is that an evangelical thing too? Amish people and Quakers and other low church Christians don’t seem to care that I’ve talked too?? Anecdotally I guess but you’re the first person I’ve met with strong feelings about it
I have strong opinions about things that are dumb to have strong onions about, but, hey, I'm an idiot. 🤷♂️
You’re not an idiot I’m just sad that evangelicalism sucks so hard
I was raised in a Protestant church and Protestantism pushed me away from God not toward God. I went from Taoism to Deism to now back to Christianity because I found Orthodoxy. I'm not baptized and I don't go to church mostly due to none being near me but I plan to visit one as soon as I have the ability to.
I hope you’re able to!!! You could try planning a monastery trip! They sometimes have guest areas so you can stay overnight
I will look into this, thank you 🙏
No one said they were necessary for salvation? Eucharist: "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you." Baptism: Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” John 3:5 “Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’” Confession: "Whatever you hold loosed on earth is loosed in heaven and whatever you hold bound on earth is bound in heaven." So yes, someone said that. It was Jesus.
Cherry picking bible verses like this is usually extremely frowned upon in Catholicism and way more common with the sola scriptura crowd tbh but also these verses aren’t really stacking up to what you’re trying to say. Especially the baptism and confession ones. You’re leaning really far into Pelagianism. You can’t freewill your way through a checklist of sacraments as a way of buying salvation. Sorry. That’s genuinely a heresy in Catholicism, orthodoxy, and mainline Protestantism
What?! No. Sacraments are not a good work to earn God's favor. Sacraments are a visible sign of His grace. The church has always taught that baptism is necessary. The sacraments are the Avenue that God gave to humanity to encounter Him. Of course the caveat is that the sacraments are the Avenue that God gave us. He is not constrained by them and we can hope that He saves those who have no access to His sacraments as He did with those who lived before Christ. But God is free, but we are bound by the commands he gave us. I am not "cherry-picking" verses, those are some of the verses that the church herself references.
You are cherry picking verses and it’s very jarring when self identified Catholics do that because it’s so frowned upon in Roman Catholicism to do that. Like really really detested within Catholicism.
I have no idea how I am cherry-picking. Am I missing a broader context? Are there verses that say the opposite? Catholics aren't allowed to quote scripture? By your definition I can't quote scripture unless I post the Bible here whole and entire. What is frowned upon is using verses out of context in a way that the church herself never used them. That isn't what I am doing. I am using the verses as the church herself uses them.
You are cherry picking and simultaneously kind of butchering the catechism of the Roman Catholic church in the process w your attempt to idk summarize some of its entries on a few of the specific sacraments. Also calling the RCC “the church” to an Orthodox Catholic is p cringe. The RCC considers all orthodox sacraments valid but the reverse is not true at all so it’s just…. Quite Jarring.
Summa Theologiae, Tertia Pars, Q. 60 to 65. Q. 61 specifically: The necessity of the Sacraments My version is in portuguese. I'll try to find an english version so I can quote for you.
I’m familiar with it because I grew up in the RCC but I’m Orthodox now and Orthodox Catholics don’t particularly follow anything Aquinas wrote including the summa!
Now you got my attention! Would you mind explaining why?
He’s post schism! So he’s only venerated in western dominant churches like RCC, Anglican, Lutheran etc- he’s not venerated or even named as a saint at all in Eastern Orthodoxy. He was mid 1200s! Panis Angelicus is a phenomenal hymn tho!!!!!
What about Saint Augustin?
Saint Augustine of Hippo? He is pre-schism! Venerated by all who venerate saints!
Augustine, quoted on the Summa https://nostrcheck.me/media/1bcaf769395ec552ea5e15427ad78fadf6076543df3f9fd3d2900577621b50a0/06a3beb03361ec5446b462e6c1e1ffbe6caf1c0553dbaa5d532941d496d3c6d5.webp
I like that quote!!! Thank you!!
There are a lot of St. Augustine quotations on St. Thomas Aquinas works. I'm pretty sure he is the most quoted. Maybe you are familiarized with the Catena Aurea, a compilation of commentaries by the Church fathers. There are plenty quotes arguing the necessity of the Sacraments by authors like St. Jerome, St. John Chrysostom, St. Beda... This is my everyday reading: the daily Gospel and the commentaries on the Catena Aura about that passage
Mark 16:16 is also used by the Orthodox Church to demonstrate the necessity of baptism. Orthodox also hold the Eucharist as necessary. That is why the give it to infants at baptism.
