Oddbean new post about login | logout Cherry picking bible verses like this is usually extremely frowned upon in Catholicism and way more common with the sola scriptura crowd tbh but also these verses aren’t really stacking up to what you’re trying to say. Especially the baptism and confession ones. You’re leaning really far into Pelagianism. You can’t freewill your way through a checklist of sacraments as a way of buying salvation. Sorry. That’s genuinely a heresy in Catholicism, orthodoxy, and mainline Protestantism
What?! No. Sacraments are not a good work to earn God's favor. Sacraments are a visible sign of His grace. The church has always taught that baptism is necessary. The sacraments are the Avenue that God gave to humanity to encounter Him. Of course the caveat is that the sacraments are the Avenue that God gave us. He is not constrained by them and we can hope that He saves those who have no access to His sacraments as He did with those who lived before Christ. But God is free, but we are bound by the commands he gave us. I am not "cherry-picking" verses, those are some of the verses that the church herself references.
You are cherry picking verses and it’s very jarring when self identified Catholics do that because it’s so frowned upon in Roman Catholicism to do that. Like really really detested within Catholicism.
I have no idea how I am cherry-picking. Am I missing a broader context? Are there verses that say the opposite? Catholics aren't allowed to quote scripture? By your definition I can't quote scripture unless I post the Bible here whole and entire. What is frowned upon is using verses out of context in a way that the church herself never used them. That isn't what I am doing. I am using the verses as the church herself uses them.
You are cherry picking and simultaneously kind of butchering the catechism of the Roman Catholic church in the process w your attempt to idk summarize some of its entries on a few of the specific sacraments. Also calling the RCC “the church” to an Orthodox Catholic is p cringe. The RCC considers all orthodox sacraments valid but the reverse is not true at all so it’s just…. Quite Jarring.
Summa Theologiae, Tertia Pars, Q. 60 to 65. Q. 61 specifically: The necessity of the Sacraments My version is in portuguese. I'll try to find an english version so I can quote for you.
I’m familiar with it because I grew up in the RCC but I’m Orthodox now and Orthodox Catholics don’t particularly follow anything Aquinas wrote including the summa!
Now you got my attention! Would you mind explaining why?
He’s post schism! So he’s only venerated in western dominant churches like RCC, Anglican, Lutheran etc- he’s not venerated or even named as a saint at all in Eastern Orthodoxy. He was mid 1200s! Panis Angelicus is a phenomenal hymn tho!!!!!
What about Saint Augustin?
Saint Augustine of Hippo? He is pre-schism! Venerated by all who venerate saints!
Augustine, quoted on the Summa https://nostrcheck.me/media/1bcaf769395ec552ea5e15427ad78fadf6076543df3f9fd3d2900577621b50a0/06a3beb03361ec5446b462e6c1e1ffbe6caf1c0553dbaa5d532941d496d3c6d5.webp
I like that quote!!! Thank you!!
There are a lot of St. Augustine quotations on St. Thomas Aquinas works. I'm pretty sure he is the most quoted. Maybe you are familiarized with the Catena Aurea, a compilation of commentaries by the Church fathers. There are plenty quotes arguing the necessity of the Sacraments by authors like St. Jerome, St. John Chrysostom, St. Beda... This is my everyday reading: the daily Gospel and the commentaries on the Catena Aura about that passage
Mark 16:16 is also used by the Orthodox Church to demonstrate the necessity of baptism. Orthodox also hold the Eucharist as necessary. That is why the give it to infants at baptism.
