Thanks. 

I haven't watched the video yet but I suspect it's about the legal scrutiny such projects attract.

I am wondering how solutions like Cashu or Fedimint can eventually move the lines. 

 no. watch, then comment. it's a biased btc maxi's perspective on monero. all 1,300 views since 2022's worth. 

 https://dark.fi/insights/future-of-crypto-in-regulatory-hell.html 

 take your time

it's 3 parts, 3 hours in total lol

same, we'll see.  

 Done watching part 1. 

The lack of plausible deniability with Monero is a big problem for me. I want excuses as to why I use potentially privacy preserving techniques that do not incriminate myself directly. Saving on transaction costs is perfect for that. 

Also I dislike the all or nothing stance in general. This is not how life works.  

 interdasting, thanks for sharing ser 

 I don't understand. For plausible deniability, why can't you say you were trying to save on fees with Monero too? Less than a cent.

>"Why didn't you just use Lightning/Ecash then?"
>"Because ecash is custodial and rehypothicateable.
And lightning is too complex and too many annoyance (can't receive offline, ruggable, can't send large amounts, can be forced closed onchain, etc...)"

? 

 Yes that works too but the fact it's a well known so called privacy coin is likely to attract more attention which is counter productive in this scenario 

 And the main features of ecash is it's strong privacy as well. So, I still don't understand why you think it is so different. Anything with that kind of privacy won't be liked, period. 

 Well the thing is nobody knows you owned ecash outside of the mint. It's Bitcoin in Bitcoin out and Lightning in the case of Cashu.  

 Actually I see your point. The only difference in that you need to explain why you sent to a mint instead of why you swapped to Monero. Which isn't much I agree. 

 I guess that is an ever slight difference, but not sure if it is significant. Why else would you be sending to a mint (if that address is known and associated with a mint)? Will at least evoke major suspicion

And if you p2p trade or atomic swap for Monero - this is essentially the same thing as sending Bitcoin to a mint. Probably even better. No one will know you got that Monero aside from your peer (and you'll also likely be anonymous or pseudonymous with these methods too) 

 Fedimints and Cashu will attract the same legal scrutiny. But unlike Monero, they are holding funds! So they will likely be even more scrutinized. Look at what happened to Tornado Cash. 

 My understanding is that mints are grassroots initiatives run by one or more individuals which makes them somehow volatiles, hard to find and to take down. 

 Maybe so, but it runs into a catch 22 imo

Well-known mint runners are less likely to rug, but easier to find and take down

Anonymous/Pseudonymous mint runners are harder to find and take down, but it's easier for them to rug-n-run 

 Agreed. There will always be tradeoffs obviously. 

 You can gauge your risk accordingly by reducing exposure in amount and/or time to make the these risks low/negligible.

But strictly speaking it will always be custodial and there is no guarantee that those who hold ecash tokens will ever be able to redeem them for real Bitcoin, or that others will take them at their represented value.

I think there will be many rugs by mints (both intentional and unintentional) before it gets somewhat better. But the risks will never be lower than self-custody on chain.

https://iris.to/note1mmtkufs30679q4cem09lrdzx4cevr8ss9269wlrl34k6tarmzwfs0s880t 

 https://stacker.news/items/397764 

 oh nice mini table 

 pff cant zap of course you don't have ln on lol  

 Forgive me for projecting. Peace and love.  

 what do you think ab atomic swap w boltzexch from lightning to lbtc and pegging out back versus monero swap as a tool to help for forward facing privacy?  

 Swapping #Bitcoin to #Lightning is fine.
Swapping #Lightning to #Liquid is fine.
Swapping #Bitcoin to #Monero is fine.
Using Whirlpools is fine.

The point i was trying to make is: Monero is not the only option for transacting privately, unlike many Monero-fanboys seem to think. 

 yes amazing tnx

is there perhaps a comparison table yet comparing the options per possible usecase? that doesnt go too extremely deep in the tech.. for ppl like me?  

 lightning vs liquid vs chaumian vs fedi vs monero

it's a lot i guess, gonna be mega  

 I would say the only strong default privacy on this list is chaumian ecash (like fedi) and Monero.

If you don't care about the custodial aspects and the fact that mints can arbitrarily print unbacked tokens, then ecash is great transactional privacy. Not really adopted anywhere yet though. 

 thank you 

 Whirlpool is obfuscation, nothing is hidden. All amounts and connections are visible. Need to run your own dojo or you give away your xpubs. Weak to Sybil attacks. Requires centralized coordinator. Expensive, slow, and tedious.

Lightning we can already rule out the way 95% of users use it with custodial or LSP wallets that have full insight. For the few sovereign users left: receiver privacy sucks, amounts can be probed, IP exposed by default, onchain footprint data leaks. And unless you're only going to send and receive from the other 5 unannounced nodes that exist, you route thru centralized nodes that reduce any help from onion routing.

Liquid is traceable. Only hides amounts. Custodial. 

 very clear, merci 

 It takes a large amount of effort to try to get any kind of privacy with BTC.  

Monero is so easy to use, the most private by default (a person with the lowest IQ is secure with monero), monero has dynamic block sizing therefore moving it costs pennies, monero is used everyday.  BTC is for cold storage like expensive paintings.  

Monero is real money. 

 Congrats 🥳
You kind of solved the problem for 0.01% of users that will do that.

Now here are the other privacy problems that come with LN, that Monero doesn't have, for the 0.01% of those users:
-Receivers have notoriously bad privacy
-Amounts can be probed by a large routing node
-Data gleaned from onchain footprint used to open/close channels(including name of node you opened/closed the channel to/from)
-Any effectiveness of onion routing is reduced/nullified if most of the network is using large centralized nodes to transact (which is incentivized for successful routing and cheapest fees)

Here are general LN problems (that neither Bitcoin nor Monero have):
-can't send larger amounts
-need to have sufficiently funded channels to use
-can't receive offline
-requires a hot wallet to receive
-can be rugged if your node is offline
-can be force closed against your will

Here are the problems specific to Phoenix:
-Centralized servers in France
-They calculate routes for you so know amounts and destinations
-They allow you to receive by being a middle man so permissioned
-You pay them extra to transact
-If they go offline, your wallet is useless
https://phoenix.acinq.co/privacy
https://phoenix.acinq.co/faq#how-private-are-my-payments-on-phoenix

There is a reason no one uses the Lightning Network on Darknet Markets.


Here are some people you may know talking about the state of lightning privacy:

"Lightning right now is a privacy nightmare" -Giacomo
https://youtu.be/P1PRKKlI-Jo?si=OXtZUHPiBmanbNuC&t=1691

LN devs telling you its not private:
bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/state-of-bitcoin-lightning-network-privacy
https://abytesjourney.com/lightning-privacy/


"We identified 27,183 private channels, discovered hidden balances, and showed how a passive adversary can infer payment endpoints with very high probability."
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2003.12470.pdf 

 *Mic Drop!* 

 That you have to do this shows how truly terrible Bitcoin is as a pricavy preserving Bitcoin.  It wouldn't be so bad if privacy wasn't portrayed as the main selling feature by Bitcoin fanboys.  Its easier to hide fiat money in offshore accounts!  Or buy gold and bury it in the back yard. 

 Not the way 95%+ of users use it. Custodial wallets and LSPs can see everything they do. 

 He can’t prove anything 😂😂 

 Run a Monero node and see if what I'm saying matches up. Exactly like any Bitcoiner would "prove" it. 

 Agree thats silly. Just spend in xmr. The fact that people don't use XMR isn't an argument against its technical superiority. The network effect is driven by fud/propaganda/lies/investors etc.  None of which are defensible reasons to use Bitcoin, even if they are practical reasons. 

 Why would somebody want to hold asset that's less secure? 🤔 

 Monero security is fine. Digital fiat is a million times less secure (your funds can be frozen, confiscated, no privacy from banks and governments, and rampant unpredictable inflation), yet I'm sure you and most people hold some. You also don't have to hold Monero if you don't want to - just spend it 

 Yes, I would rather own some Monero to buy my groceries for the week instead of cash, but that's not possible and probably never will be.

But how would one just spend Monero without holding or trading something for it first? 🤔

Monero is actually much less secure than Bitcoin on multiple levels. 

 I can't buy groceries with Bitcoin directly anywhere around me either so what is the difference? You act as if everyone is using and accepting Bitcoin when they're not. Most people still don't know or care about Bitcoin.

If you're holding some fiat right now (and I bet you are) then it is quite hilarious to nitpick about Moneros security. 
There is a ~$3 billion bounty for you to break it's security. If it's so weak, then go get it! What are you waiting for? All for you! 

 The differences lies in security and assurances. 

I don't want to hold something that's less secure for most of my wealth.

I could think of having some privacy shitcoin or fiat for my weekly groceries, but only fiat is accepted atm. 

 That has nothing to do with Monero

Of course Monero can't guarantee privacy if you leave it. Almost all the negatives you list are consequences of Bitcoin (cost, potential privacy failures, time consuming swapping) not Monero

You have to use Monero directly 

 the problems of bitcoin is not moneros concern 

 But Monero is not a solution 

 I'll use info we do know. Look at custodial wallet download statistics vs known nodes. Look at Nostr. Even among true believers you are all using LN custodially via WoS, Getalby, etc. No privacy from them.

Are you using ln.tips custodially? If not, you are a rare exception 

 semantics. love lightning. it's no monero. it's got promise and growing nicely but no, most people (especially on nostr) do not run their own lightning node because it's a bit of a pain in the ass to run and manage correctly (unlike btc nodes). 

 lightning addresses by wallet on nostr as of april 2023
https://image.nostr.build/dadd6d43b2df865f1e2972b8ee107b330275f52a26f3b44abf2a3dd45ad6499e.jpg#m=image%2Fjpeg&dim=1450x892&blurhash=r4Ss878%5E_41JD%25%5D%25In%25h%7Eq9HIV-oxCS5bds.s%2Cax%25MXSWA-BM%7BXm%3FbIo9YVqRiS%25NMt6xWWAW%3FkE-rjv9YxY%5E%2COYD%25%23Rg2snn%2CkWbEnzjFIuNKxW&x=91bc28ef4e87cafb5bfbe47569856b014d7c3d346f44ea030fc27a3ca89905cc 

 I run my own node, I can't speak of others. 

 You are a rare exception. Hence my original comment "(something almost no lightning user does)"

A big advantage Monero has over LN is that you don't need to run your own Monero node to gain all of it's privacy benefits (hidden amounts, hidden addresses, obfuscated senders). You gain these even if using any remote node.

For LN you *must* run your own node for maximum possible privacy
Even non-custodial wallets like Phoenix offer no privacy advantage