Oddbean

Use two Phoenix Wallets with your own two separate private keys, use you own Electrum server and Tor, send your #Bitcoin once (or twice) via the Lightning Network. We don't need whirpool mixers nor #Monero.

Swapping #Bitcoin to #Lightning is fine. Swapping #Lightning to #Liquid is fine. Swapping #Bitcoin to #Monero is fine. Using Whirlpools is fine. The point i was trying to make is: Monero is not the only option for transacting privately, unlike many Monero-fanboys seem to think.

I would say the only strong default privacy on this list is chaumian ecash (like fedi) and Monero. If you don't care about the custodial aspects and the fact that mints can arbitrarily print unbacked tokens, then ecash is great transactional privacy. Not really adopted anywhere yet though.

Whirlpool is obfuscation, nothing is hidden. All amounts and connections are visible. Need to run your own dojo or you give away your xpubs. Weak to Sybil attacks. Requires centralized coordinator. Expensive, slow, and tedious. Lightning we can already rule out the way 95% of users use it with custodial or LSP wallets that have full insight. For the few sovereign users left: receiver privacy sucks, amounts can be probed, IP exposed by default, onchain footprint data leaks. And unless you're only going to send and receive from the other 5 unannounced nodes that exist, you route thru centralized nodes that reduce any help from onion routing. Liquid is traceable. Only hides amounts. Custodial.

It takes a large amount of effort to try to get any kind of privacy with BTC. Monero is so easy to use, the most private by default (a person with the lowest IQ is secure with monero), monero has dynamic block sizing therefore moving it costs pennies, monero is used everyday. BTC is for cold storage like expensive paintings. Monero is real money.

Congrats 🥳 You kind of solved the problem for 0.01% of users that will do that. Now here are the other privacy problems that come with LN, that Monero doesn't have, for the 0.01% of those users: -Receivers have notoriously bad privacy -Amounts can be probed by a large routing node -Data gleaned from onchain footprint used to open/close channels(including name of node you opened/closed the channel to/from) -Any effectiveness of onion routing is reduced/nullified if most of the network is using large centralized nodes to transact (which is incentivized for successful routing and cheapest fees) Here are general LN problems (that neither Bitcoin nor Monero have): -can't send larger amounts -need to have sufficiently funded channels to use -can't receive offline -requires a hot wallet to receive -can be rugged if your node is offline -can be force closed against your will Here are the problems specific to Phoenix: -Centralized servers in France -They calculate routes for you so know amounts and destinations -They allow you to receive by being a middle man so permissioned -You pay them extra to transact -If they go offline, your wallet is useless https://phoenix.acinq.co/privacy https://phoenix.acinq.co/faq#how-private-are-my-payments-on-phoenix There is a reason no one uses the Lightning Network on Darknet Markets. Here are some people you may know talking about the state of lightning privacy: "Lightning right now is a privacy nightmare" -Giacomo https://youtu.be/P1PRKKlI-Jo?si=OXtZUHPiBmanbNuC&t=1691 LN devs telling you its not private: bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/state-of-bitcoin-lightning-network-privacy https://abytesjourney.com/lightning-privacy/ "We identified 27,183 private channels, discovered hidden balances, and showed how a passive adversary can infer payment endpoints with very high probability." https://arxiv.org/pdf/2003.12470.pdf

That you have to do this shows how truly terrible Bitcoin is as a pricavy preserving Bitcoin. It wouldn't be so bad if privacy wasn't portrayed as the main selling feature by Bitcoin fanboys. Its easier to hide fiat money in offshore accounts! Or buy gold and bury it in the back yard.