Oddbean new post about login | logout @ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Which is better than losing a race between a dodo & a turkey I suppose Let it go bruv. Jezza's gone & he ain't coming back You seem more interested in seeing Labour fail, which means the Tories win by default Again, you seem full of bitterness & criticism toward #Starmer & #Labour, but you're yet to offer a realistic alternative to end 13 horrific years of #Tory damage, mismanagement & corruption Do you have an alternative solution to offer? 🤔
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 I dont think i have ever mentioned #Corbyn - I dont understand the labour right's obsession with him #Starmer because *did* offer an alternative and *did* have policies that would have made a meaningful difference to peoples lives - #10pleges anyone? He then dumped all the policies and allowed the tories to destroy our civil rights, our environment and the prospects for our children by failing to offer any opposition or alternative
@ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Again, you're NOT connecting the dots. We need the #Tories out by any means necessary! If #Labour win #GE2024 by a healthy majority, only THEN can #Starmer be judged. Right now he's not giving the Tories a sniff. They've NOTHING to come back at him with if he agrees with them! Deep down he doesn't, but once in power & when he's seen the books, who's gonna complain if he changes back to his original pledges? 🤔 It's called politics mate. 🤷🏾♂️
@ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 2/ Also, when you say #Starmer "Allowed" the #Tories... How's Starmer supposed to do that when the Tories have a 70+ seat majority? 🤔 Mate, #Labour aren't in power, & as we've seen, they can't affect what the Tories want to vote through unless #Tory MPs rebel... 🤷🏾♂️
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Starmer has utterly failed to oppose #tory policies and offer alternatives I dont expect the opposition to win many votes in the commons but I do expect them to try to win the *argument * And for the opposition to do some opposing If labour are this feeble and timid in opposition - against an dying government are they going to stand up to the rich and powerful - their donors
@ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 I did ask for your alternative mate. I hear your criticisms of #Starmer's #Labour, but I just want to hear which solution do you suggest will work & why? Also, with a 70+ seat majority, how would Starmer opposing these Tory policies have stopped them? After the biggest election annihilation in political history in 2019, the far left claimed "We won all the arguments". Can you tell me what good "Winning the arguments" did for the UK? 🤔
@0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 The alternative would be not doing more "#austerity, privatisation of the #NHS or a way to reduce poverty, fallng real wages, and ..privatised rip-off utilities". Not sure if you're ignoring when that was written or if you actually cannot compute it. That last paragraph is weird, you're asking someone else to justify an argument they haven't made. And you keep using the phrase "far left". But aren't you actually just talking about the left?
@0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Your aim here seems to be persuading leftists, whose perspectives you seem to have disdain for, that #Starmer will somehow deliver what they want. This seems a bit like just mimicking Starmer. Or perhaps if your aim is not that, judging by that silly meme picture, it is instead to persuade leftists that Starmer ('cos he's definitely not a C/conservative..) and his retrograde, oppressive politics should be all they want.
@a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Mate, if it was up to me, the remnants of the far left would have been permanently ejected in 2020! 😳 I'd have given them £1m in #Labour funds so Momentum, Breakthrough Party & NIP could form a new far left party under Corbyn, where you could've reunited & had Jon McDonnell, Diane Abbott, Ian Lavery, Jon Trickett & Laura Smith as your new front bench. The UK rejected Foot in 1982. They Rejected Corbyn in 2019. You had your chances & blew them! 🤷🏾♂️
@0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Surely this whole debate is about you courting leftists to support #Starmer or at least stop criticising him? It doesn't make sense when someone declares the death of the left and then puts so much energy into criticising leftism. It seems somehow #necrophilic. Unless maybe the body still has a worrying pulse?
@a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Mate, you engaged with me! 🙄 I've given up trying to reason with far left Corbynista's. We get it. You HATE #Starmer & many of you would rather another 5 years of the #Tories, than see SKS as PM. I'm not trying to change your mind. All I'm saying is seeing as you dislike Starmer so much, why don't you form/find another party to put your energies into, & leave Labour alone? If you leave us alone, you'll get no push-back from me fella... 🙏🏾🤷🏾♂️
@0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 This is a very fragile way to be triumphant. #Starmer
@a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 I'm being realistic. Now why don't you run along, fund some #Tories & put your efforts into finding out from them, why they've trashed the UK they way they have? #Labour doesn't want or need you, hence why no one's arsed who you vote for. Mate, you Corbynista's are a complete irrelevance... 🙄
@a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 I didn't ask for the negative of what I asked, I asked for YOUR solutions to avoid austerity, NHS privatisation, reduce poverty, falling wages & rip-off utilities? The last paragraph was me paraphrasing the reasons trotted out by the far left for #Labour's GE2019 dry bumming I repeat: "We won all the arguments" 🙄 The far left got their way & increased Labour's membership by 290k. This being the case, why did Labour get Slaughtered?
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 "who's going to complain if #Starmer switches back to his original pledges"" ? All the corpotate donors, the private health lobbyist, the rip-off privatised utilities and #Murdoch .....and all the other bastards that he has been relentlessly courting So who will he betray, the people of this country or the rich and powerful who "donate" and lobby him
@ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 They've all connected the dots & are well aware of the tactical game being played. It's 21st Century political warfare. Where the #Tory machine is concerned, millions of us have acknowledged it's the best way to oust them, as well as forming a non-aggression progressive alliance pact. The #Tories are well aware what #Starmer's #Labour are up to, but even having 80% of the UK's print media behind them, there's little they can do to stop it. 🤷🏾♂️
@ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Also, you've still not offered an alternative. Do you have one to share? 🤔
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Are *you* offering an alternative to #austerity, privatisation of the #NHS or a way to reduce poverty, fallng real wages, and an end to privatised rip-off utilities? No - you dont offer an alternative, maybe just something slightly less terrible The alternative that did exist has now been dismantled and there isnt an immediately available alternative via westminster elections *I*m not pretending there is Long term fix is...cont
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 ... #PR and a truly representative politics freed from corporate corruption and an archaic ramshackle "constitution" Whether that ever happens, I wont find out its unlikely in my lifetime Short-term I hope for Labour to win and find some energy, some backbone and some policies...not sure i will see that either
@ee4cb8b5 @0f342e77 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 I think we're potentially more likely to get systemic change if the Tories win than if Labour win since the latter provides the archaic unrepresentative system legitimacy.
@a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 The #Tories have been in power for 13 years, & you're quite correct. They DEFINITELY are the party of change. Our NHS was the best in the world. Now look at the change. Until the 2008 crash, our economy was forging ahead. Now look at the change. Huge investment became austerity. Now look at the change. Wages inline with inflation. Now look at the change. We had EU access. Now look at the change. Should we look forward to more Tory changes? 🤔
@0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0gPzIOTsgk https://jacobin.com/2023/06/labour-party-uk-nhs-health-care-privatization So silly. #Starmer
@a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Jeez! I dunno where to start with that pile of crap! 🙄 The UK's broke. Our debt/GDP is running at 101.3%. Please explain to me how would YOU fund the extra funding for the NHS on day one, & fill the 160k job vacancies? 🤔 You do know there were SEVERAL PFI models? Some worked, some didn't, but again at the time our crumbling schools, hospitals & public buildings needed replacing, & the UK was skint. Where dya expect the money to come from? 😳
@ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 OK, so you're hoping for a #Labour win? 🤔 Great! Not everyone in Labour agrees with everything in Labour, but we're in broad agreement & finally at peace. If you want to be a part of Labour's change, you can't do that from the Grandstand hurling criticism at those on the field of play trying to effect change. If you've not been a part of Labour's policy platform, how dya know what they're even proposing to put in their #GE2024 manifesto? 🤔
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 This assumes either of two teams playing *are* trying to effect change I am not part of "labours policy platform" - so is that a requirement to know what *may* be their policy? So, no, i am not at peace - i am devastated that the people of the UK will likely face #austerity, more cuts, more real-wage cuts and increasing inequality whichever "team" wins Maybe #Labour will discover a reason to exist other than just managing #decline
@ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Well I'm part of Labour's policy platform & I can tell you with 100% certainty, you haven't a clue what Labour's detailed plans are, outside of what the Mail, Express, Telegraph & KGB News claim. When playing poker, do you reveal your hand just to be seen as being open & transparent? If you believe a poker player should, no wonder Labour got bludgeoned in 2019! 🙄 Why don't you join Momentum, Breakthrough Party, NIP etc, as you'll be well suited?
@0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 IMHO parties should not make manifesto promises. They are always derailed by events anyway. Instead they should publish a creed. A statement of the ideals they hold that will inform everything they will do if elected or in opposition. Failure to live up to those ideals should be challenged in parliament and used against the offending party at the next election.
@d4b01ab1 @0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 I think that provided a government does not challenge the interests of Capital, the system is sufficiently broken that they do not need to be accountable for what they previously pledged. I think #Starmer is safe in the knowledge and practice of that.
@d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Yet #Labour are being crucified by a tiny, but very vocal far left minority who believe #Starmer should spill his guts over Labour's strategy for winning GE2024, & tie itself to any policies stated during that quest, BEFORE they've even had a chance to scrutinise the books if they win! 😳 It's blummin amatuerish nonsense mate, illustrating 2 things: 1. Those demanding this have never negotiated in business 2. #Corbyn tried this in 2019 🙄
@0f342e77 @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Corbyn tried to win by being open about his political intentions? And that's why he lost? Voters didn't like his political intentions (aka redistribution)? This all makes it sound like #Starmer doesn't have political intentions and political ideology and that both are readily available in his statements and actions since becoming leader. It seems to assume people are too naive or stupid to notice and should support him regardless.
@a8a3ca9d @0f342e77 @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 the main policy that seems to have caused Labour support to fall off a cliff in 2019 was the party saying it was supporting a second EU referendum in January. https://media.mastodon.nu/media_attachments/files/111/030/277/054/311/426/original/ac96198c93b4b2f6.png
@b870d4c8 @0f342e77 @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/12/starmer-should-apologise-for-labours-brexit-position-say-ex-shadow-ministers Terrible for #Corbyn 's #Labour party, but worked out pretty well for #Starmer 's Labour party. Funny that.
@a8a3ca9d @b870d4c8 @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Ian Lavery Jon Trickett & Laura Smith? 🙄 Mate, please get serious! They were all complicit with Corbyn's disastrous reign! They've ALL been despatched from frontline politics, & now Labour's sporting a 20% poll lead. I wonder why? Who was party leader when the 2nd Ref was proposed? Are you saying #Starmer threatened #Corbyn & made him make it Labour Party Policy? 🤔 Well if Corbyn was that weak, he had no business being Labour Leader!😳
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 1/ If only we knew then what we know now about Brexit, & an 80% Remain #Labour Party wasn't led by a man who was a career-long Eurosceptic hey? 🤔 This was the dilemma #Corbyn faced. His party wanted one thing, but his heart was set on the UK being outside the EU. What a fuckin mess! 🙄
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 2/ So what effort did #Corbyn put into the Brexit Ref? What effort did he put into a 2nd Ref? He couldn't even say which way he'd campaign if he got a 2nd Ref! Don't you recall Corbyn's disastrous head to head TV debate? Well that's when Labour support totally collapsed in the polls. As for the 2nd Ref being #Starmer's fault? A 2nd Ref was PARTY POLICY! Corbyn was leader & made the final decisions, so how's that Starmer's problem? 🤔
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 when was the TV debate?
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Just before GE2019. Go to 20 seconds in. Prior to this Doris challenged him to confirm if he'd campaign for Remain or Leave if he won & got his 2nd referendum. He was asked several times, & REFUSED to answer, leaving himself looking like a disingenuous clown! This was the night Labour's election hopes died in front of a national TV audience! The day after, Corbyn came out & said Remain, BUT it was too late! 🙄 https://youtu.be/WblD51H5ggI?si=6qsV5x384UP3QWRr
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 oh, ok, but the graph of polling doesn't seem to show that as a time when support was falling.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Because of Corbyn's ambiguous flip flopping on Brexit since the referendum, Labour were already on notice. Theresa May knew Brexit would be a disaster, so trying to be sensible offered no clear differential between the #Tories & #Labour, hence her losing her wafer thin majority in 2017. Doris came along with 'Get Brexit Done' & put distance between the parties. Corbyn was all over the place, & support ebbed away to the charismatic Doris.
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 yes I think voters found the Corbyn flipflopping very off-putting.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 The night of that fateful TV debate, I felt something die inside of me! 😪 Labour activists were crushed & the stench of impending defeat never left us. All we could hear on the doorstep is "It's not Labour, it's Corbyn. Can't you get rid of him?" Blair Brown & Campbell warned him NOT to agree to an election, but because they suggested it, it seemed that's what pushed him over the edge into agreeing to have one. What a fuckin disaster!
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 I think an election became inevitable when the SNP decided to vote for one. I remember doing the sums at the time. I agree going for an election was a huge mistake for all the non-tories.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 No. It all depended on Labour votes. The DUP had a confidence & supply arrangement with the Tories. The SNP were on course to wipe out Labour, so agreed. Jo Swindon believed the Lib Dems could win so she too fell for the Tories demand for an election, but it still wasn't enough. After warnings from Blair, Brown & Campbell, this made Corbyn bite back & agree to the election in September 2019. It signalled the end for #Labour. 🤷🏾♂️
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 The Tories were voting for the election, as was DUP, and with libdem and SNP votes parliament was bound to support the call for an election.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 It all depended on #Labour mate. If you remember, the #Tories didn't even have a majority, & it needed a ⅔ parliamentary majority to change Cameron's 5 year fixed term parliaments. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-blair-idUSKCN1VN0RT
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 oof I forgot about the two-thirds rule. Sorry for wasting your time and I appreciate you putting me right.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 No worries mate. Like yourself, I'm here to share knowledge & to learn too. #Corbyn showed how useless he was for falling for the trap. What happened on 13th December 2019, is exactly as Blair predicted on 2nd September. Egged on by #Momentum & their belief they could mobilised the greatest election campaign force in history, they too believed Corbyn would win easily. In that moment, he proved what a naive political fool he was. 🙄
@a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 No! Like I said, it wasn't Corbyn's policies so much that were the issue, it was #Corbyn himself, but would the Corbynista's listen? Hell no! 🙄 Also, as it stands an election hasn't been called, therefore Labour hasn't released its manifesto. This being the case, why all the guesswork & criticism? Also... Given the choice of Labour in power under a new leader, or Labour in opposition with Corbyn as Leader, which would you prefer? 🤔
@0f342e77 @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Maybe I'm lacking the intelligence to follow your thinking but this seems muddled to me. I'm also mindful that your tendency to throw derogatory terms around regarding #Labour 's traditional base might link to a factor feeding into this muddle.
@a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Your initial statement seems closer to the mark. I can't make my POV any clearer. However if you're resolute in your Corbynesque beliefs, then I can't help you. I think it best you find a far left alternative & leave #Starmer & #Labour to forge its own path. Even today we don't all agree in the Labour Party, but we have a common purpose to rid the UK of the #Tories, & to start the arduous task of reversing 13 years of damage & corruption
@0f342e77 @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 You sound a little hopped up on #Starmer 's #purge approach, while muddling it with trying to get us to vote for him.
@a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 We don't want or need your vote mate Haven't you noticed no one gives a rat's arse what you do? 🙄 We just want you to go in peace. Join Momentum & be happy, but above all else, just leave #Labour alone You're not wanted or needed. I know it'll probably hurt your feelings, but this is why no normal people want to engage with you Corbynista's How many hours have you spent today bellyaching about 2019 FFS 🙄 It's done! It's gone! Move on!
@0f342e77 @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 You do post that 'don't get distracted' image an awful lot for someone who doesn't care how people vote. It's puzzling why people you're so content to subject to slurs and disdain, should provoke so much vulnerability just for rejecting #Starmer.
@a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Who cares mate! We've moved on & left you back in 2019 blubbing like a baby, & you're STILL crying! 😭 😂😂
@ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 "The alternative that did exist has now been dismantled". Which alternative is this? Surely not the 'alternative' offered by #Corbyn, which led #Labour to the largest election hammering in history? 🤔 Mate, if this is your claim, well the UK electorate totally disagreed with you & emphatically reinforced this by causing a near Labour wipeout. Are you now suggesting Labour install a new Leader & represent Corbyn's 2019 manifesto? Seriously? 😳
@0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Is the idea here: that the "alternative to #austerity, privatisation of the #NHS or a way to reduce poverty, fallng real wages, and an end to privatised rip-off utilities" that Corbyn's manifesto offered, was the cause of Labour losing the last election? That the UK electorate rejected those alternatives and wanted more of the same? That #Starmer would lose if he offered that kind of manifesto?
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 i was thinking of the alternative that #starmer offered when he stood for leadership Remember the 10 pledges?? #starmer #10pledges #labour Whats with the right's obsession with #Corbyn ? https://s3.eu-central-2.wasabisys.com/mastodonworld/media_attachments/files/111/031/695/532/708/919/original/e56ee9c919f48802.jpg
@ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Who cares about 10 blummin pledges from 5 years ago? Haven't you been paying attention to global events since? 🙄 The world's changed & evidently left you behind mate... 1/ Have YOU got a better alternative to offer? And talking about obsessions, what's your about in respect to #Starmer & #Labour? We don't want or need you, so why don't you convince #Momentum to incorporate themselves, join forces with the Breakthrough party & NIP, enter the...
@ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 2/ race for #GE2024 with #Corbyn as your leader, McDonnell & Abbott etc as your executive? 🤔 I'll be more than happy for you to switch to a party representing your far left utopia, where you'll be happy & so will #Labour Party members. I've no idea why the far left keep hanging around around Labour like an unwanted soggy fart? You offer nothing constructive & seem stuck in a 2019 groundhog Day. Read your bellyaching posts & reflect mate... 🙄 https://files.mastodon.online/media_attachments/files/111/031/951/260/869/762/original/302efe55eb7e7000.jpg
@0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 As a campaigner for #Starmer, I think your approach needs some refinement.
@a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 I'm a #Labour campaigner. I don't follow cult personalities like Corbynista's do. Neither do I hang around like a soggy fart where I'm not wanted. The #Tories have torn the UK apart, & all you have time to do is bellyache about #Starmer... How sad... How very creepy & very sad. 😳
@0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 A strange word to use, that. But on checking, what you appear to be saying is that critique of #Starmer is something 'causing an unpleasant feeling of fear or unease'. Again, a very fragile form of triumph: your man's likely to win. One could indeed say he has already won, in terms of preventing any threat to the interests of #Capital for another few year. But for some reason, this isn't enough?
@a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Mate don't get it twisted. #Labour are taking nothing for granted. We just don't want or need people like you on our backs like a sack of spuds. You sound like a saddo who's obsessed with his ex 5 years after the breakup, who can't stop boring people to death over what went wrong. Who cares? It's over & done with mate. Move on. Trust me bruv, this ain't a good look... 😳
@0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Critiquing the politics of a politician isn't being on their backs. Surely #Starmer's position should be able to cope with that without having to jump off the deep end.
@a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Mate, no one cares what you think. Is your life that empty that all you've got left is memories of Jeremy #Corbyn, & your evident hatred for Sir Keir #Starmer? Oh dear! 😂 It's like Labour's your ex that you can't get over, & #Starmer's his/her new fella & you've got a picture of him pinned to your dart board, so you can lob your arrows at his face! 😂😂
@0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Why shouldn't I boost your posts? I think they are very interesting. And also potentially instructive when it comes to the question of supporting #Starmer.
@a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 I DON'T support #Starmer. I support #Labour. I've no idea how I can make this any clearer. I've read through the boosted posts & replies, & realised that you've not answered any of my pertinent questions. May I ask why? 🤔
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 In general I have more in common politically with Corbyn than with Starmer, but in this online argument I think Anthony has put forward the strongest case, because of constantly talking in practical and concrete ways. For example setting up objective criteria and offering to engage on the basis of that. Meanwhile the arguments against him, despite coming from several people, have largely been weak and vague moralistic points or sniping.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 This is my whole point, & why the #Labour Party don't/can't engage with far left Corbynista's. They're the absolute definition of a cult! They joined in 2015 to ensure #Corbyn became leader, & most left in 2020 when he stepped down. The rest have distanced themselves from mainstream Labour, & instead have chosen to inhabit the political sidelines, lobbing granades us! 🙄 They'd rather another 5 years of #Tory rule, than seeing #Starmer in No10 😳
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 well, I don't agree with that. Starmer was elected on a basically corbynist platform, and he would not have needed to do that if those members had left.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 1/ Mate, as Labour keep saying, it wasn't Labour's message which lost them the last election, it was the messenger, but Corbyn's disciples wouldn't listen. #Labour HASN'T changed that much. Where we differ from Corbyn is our approach. It's all great & well saying *STOP NHS PRIVATISATION*, but stop it how, & how quickly? 🤔
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 2/ These are the practical questions where the far left fall down. They refuse to engage with these questions, because to do so & being realistic & practical, makes them sound too much like #Tory light #Starmer. This is why big corporations see #Labour as a party they can do business with. There are tough decisions to be made, but they're not chatting pie in the sky, unworkable crap as a unicorn solution to the UK's woes. 🦄. 🤷🏾♂️
@0f342e77 @b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 maybe start by not actively increasing it ?? https://www.thenational.scot/news/23700297.labour-call-greater-use-private-sector-nhs-care/
@ee4cb8b5 @b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 Typical! And you conveniently miss out the rest of the policy, which is to fix the NHS by any means necessary now, so people DON'T DIE whilst waiting for operations. In the future & once things are stabilised, we can then start the reversal of creeping privatisation. You're complete deluded if you honestly believe Labour can reverse 13 years of catestrophic damage within a parliamentary term, let alone on day one. Mate, get real! 🙄
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 yes, I was purely refering to the thing about the labour left being in and out, 2015-20.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 They were mate. Within weeks of Miliband standing down in 2015, he changed the Labour leadership vote process to 1 member, 1 vote. The membership averaged 200k, & sensing a coup opportunity, the far left group who formed Momentum mobilised their 120k support base to join Labour. Corbyn threw his cap in the leadership ring, & Momentum members voted for rank outsider Corbyn, to become the unlikeliest of Labour Leaders! 😳 https://www.businessinsider.com/momentum-the-inside-story-of-how-jeremy-corbyn-took-control-of-the-labour-party-2016-2 https://files.mastodon.online/media_attachments/files/111/034/819/764/940/038/original/33ed0239b021a5f1.jpg
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 I thought momentum formed from within the labour party? There's no way there were 120k existing non-labour organisd leftists who were mobilised. The UK far-left has never been that big.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Honestly mate, outside of the political mainstream the far left are huge in numbers. 👇🏾 Alliance for Green Socialism Breakthrough Party Communist League Left Unity National Health Action Party Socialist Equality Party Socialist Labour Party Socialist Party of Great Britain Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition And there's far left organisations WITHIN parties like Momentum, & many have formed under the NIP banner https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_left https://files.mastodon.online/media_attachments/files/111/034/879/741/440/336/original/78b12f70888ac9f5.jpg
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 no, really, some of the groups you mention just have a few dozen members.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Mate, they're independently small in number, but it's estimated they add up to 500k if added together Also remember, many of their activists aren't registered with any political party. They mobilise where & when needed This is why they're so laughable! They are so loud, vociferous & vocal, yet they can't organise themselves into one coherent political force Instead the choose to infest social media bellyaching about Sir Keir #Starmer & #Labour🙄
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Estimated by who? When I look at election results I generally see parties like that getting a few hundred votes, so I'd need data to be convinced otherwise. What is possible is there's a general crowd of people who are politically on the left of labour but who never do anything organised, until they were inspired by the party under Corbyn. But people joining because of Corbyn is the opposite of Corbyn being created by them.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Your last paragraph is it. Thousands of them are like political sleeper agents. They have the right to vote, but aren't members of any political party per se. It's the hardcore who form the membership of these tiny parties. I looked into it on #Twitter when in discussion with the far left. Several of them explained their "Left Wave" numbers, & how they can effect voting. But because they're dispersed everywhere, they more mouth than a real force
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 I guess we're describing the same data, but in different ways.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 To a degree, but there are thousands on the far left who describe themselves as #Anarchists & #UrbanWarriors. Wherever there's social discord & a protest march, they're there. They love a protest & a fight! They think sitting down & formulating a plan is boring. Why do that when you can organise a huge protest march, have #Corbyn as a keynote speaker, whilst Drum & Bass is banging away in the background. There's a festival community of them. 🤷🏾♂️
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 My point is just that they were attracted into the Labour party by Corbyn being elected leader, rather than he was elected leader because they had joined. I'm happy to identify as an anarchist, but I agree that a lot of people who do so aren't willing to commit to building long-term organisation and political power, unfortunately.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Nope. Miliband changed the leadership process to one person one vote. Momentum was then formed within the far left fringe of #Labour & went on an insane far left membership drive #Corbyn threw his hat in the Leadership ring, & the unlikeliest of outsider candidates became Labour leader Because of this coup, Labour have since changed their rules. Members can't take part in candidate selection voting, until they've been in the party for 6 months.
@0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 What are you hoping #starmer does once he's in power? Just stay there for the sake of 'keeping the #Tories out', or is there some vision of policies, goals, outcomes that you have?
@a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 I'm not hoping, I've a pretty good idea what #Starmer plans to do in power. What he has to do & say to get to that major staging post is another thing altogether, & is probably where you're getting things all twisted. Have you actually sought to find out what Labour are planning, or is the above, more of your predictions? 🤔
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 my prediction is based on the evidence of what #starmer and #reeves have been saying and doing for the last two years If you have some evidence of labours #progressive plans - that contradicts almost everything they have done and said - the please share it widely
@ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 OK, let's get into specifics. Tell me what concerns you about #Labour. Why? Ask the points in concise question form, & I'll be happy to oblige. Then we can progress onto what your alternative #GE2024 strategy is, who you intend to vote for & why. After this we can then dissect, contrast & compare Labour & it's strategy today, as opposed to 2019. Is this OK with you?
@0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 I struggle to believe that you really think #Starmer will re-embrace redistributive policies if he gets into power. I think he will probably win by explicitly or tacitly embracing Tory policies, and he will seek to stay in government by sticking to that approach. In this scenario, your profoundly limited and unimaginative sense of 'any means necessary' will not result in getting the #Tories out in any meaningful sense, only a superficial one.
@a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Are you Mystic Meg back from the dead? 😳 How do you know what I really think? I'm already stating what I think, so without knowing me, why are you doubting what I've said? 🤔 Again, you seem to be able to predict what #Starmer will do if #Labour win #GE2024. How do you what SKS will do in power? I take it you're party to Labour's policy platform, & have prior knowledge of its next manifesto? If not, where've all your predictions come from? 🦄
@0f342e77 On your first point I will have to vote lib dem as labour have no chance in my area. Tactical voting and hopefully some stepping aside by both parties will wipe the tories out @ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8
@7ec78d4a @ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 A #ProgressiveAlliance is exactly what's required. I've have no issue voting for the party best placed to rid us of the #Tories. For me, I live in a #Labour stronghold, so my vote is straightforward. If I lived elsewhere, I've have zero issue voting for anyone but #Tory. https://files.mastodon.online/media_attachments/files/111/034/681/521/255/406/original/734ad083d3c0f02a.png
@ee4cb8b5 It's not labour right, it's political center. Unfortunately a lot of people who have gone far left see the center as right wing. On the other side, the erg see the center as trots. It's what extremists do. @0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8
@7ec78d4a @ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Agreed 100%! All of a sudden, moderate Centrists are the bad guys of our polarised #UK politics Both Doris & Jezza vacated the centre of UK politics. Thankfully #Labour have retaken it, alongside the #LibDems & the #Greens Rishi #Sunak desperately wants to move to the centre, but he's hamstrung by the extremist ERG who're still calling the shots in the #Tory party Sunak's policy of appeasement to their far right is hampering the #Tories
@0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Talking of #corruption: https://inwhoseinterests.uk/2022/06/08/hedge-fund-labour-why-is-the-party-of-the-nhs-now-receiving-money-from-private-health-investors/comment-page-1/ #Starmer #Streeting
@a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 The reason these people are donating to #Labour? Because they are talking political sense & reality, & they ain't the basket case of Corbyn's or Johnson's parties. I'll ask you again... If an DAY ONE, #Starmer got rid of all private companies servicing the NHS, who replaces them, CONSIDERING they currently have 160k vacancies? Please concentrate on this one point & explain how YOU think it should get rid of ALL NHS private contractors? 🤔
