Oddbean new post about login | logout @0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 IMHO parties should not make manifesto promises. They are always derailed by events anyway. Instead they should publish a creed. A statement of the ideals they hold that will inform everything they will do if elected or in opposition. Failure to live up to those ideals should be challenged in parliament and used against the offending party at the next election.
@d4b01ab1 @0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 I think that provided a government does not challenge the interests of Capital, the system is sufficiently broken that they do not need to be accountable for what they previously pledged. I think #Starmer is safe in the knowledge and practice of that.
@d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Yet #Labour are being crucified by a tiny, but very vocal far left minority who believe #Starmer should spill his guts over Labour's strategy for winning GE2024, & tie itself to any policies stated during that quest, BEFORE they've even had a chance to scrutinise the books if they win! 😳 It's blummin amatuerish nonsense mate, illustrating 2 things: 1. Those demanding this have never negotiated in business 2. #Corbyn tried this in 2019 🙄
@0f342e77 @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Corbyn tried to win by being open about his political intentions? And that's why he lost? Voters didn't like his political intentions (aka redistribution)? This all makes it sound like #Starmer doesn't have political intentions and political ideology and that both are readily available in his statements and actions since becoming leader. It seems to assume people are too naive or stupid to notice and should support him regardless.
@a8a3ca9d @0f342e77 @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 the main policy that seems to have caused Labour support to fall off a cliff in 2019 was the party saying it was supporting a second EU referendum in January. https://media.mastodon.nu/media_attachments/files/111/030/277/054/311/426/original/ac96198c93b4b2f6.png
@b870d4c8 @0f342e77 @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/12/starmer-should-apologise-for-labours-brexit-position-say-ex-shadow-ministers Terrible for #Corbyn 's #Labour party, but worked out pretty well for #Starmer 's Labour party. Funny that.
@a8a3ca9d @b870d4c8 @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Ian Lavery Jon Trickett & Laura Smith? 🙄 Mate, please get serious! They were all complicit with Corbyn's disastrous reign! They've ALL been despatched from frontline politics, & now Labour's sporting a 20% poll lead. I wonder why? Who was party leader when the 2nd Ref was proposed? Are you saying #Starmer threatened #Corbyn & made him make it Labour Party Policy? 🤔 Well if Corbyn was that weak, he had no business being Labour Leader!😳
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 1/ If only we knew then what we know now about Brexit, & an 80% Remain #Labour Party wasn't led by a man who was a career-long Eurosceptic hey? 🤔 This was the dilemma #Corbyn faced. His party wanted one thing, but his heart was set on the UK being outside the EU. What a fuckin mess! 🙄
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 2/ So what effort did #Corbyn put into the Brexit Ref? What effort did he put into a 2nd Ref? He couldn't even say which way he'd campaign if he got a 2nd Ref! Don't you recall Corbyn's disastrous head to head TV debate? Well that's when Labour support totally collapsed in the polls. As for the 2nd Ref being #Starmer's fault? A 2nd Ref was PARTY POLICY! Corbyn was leader & made the final decisions, so how's that Starmer's problem? 🤔
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 when was the TV debate?
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Just before GE2019. Go to 20 seconds in. Prior to this Doris challenged him to confirm if he'd campaign for Remain or Leave if he won & got his 2nd referendum. He was asked several times, & REFUSED to answer, leaving himself looking like a disingenuous clown! This was the night Labour's election hopes died in front of a national TV audience! The day after, Corbyn came out & said Remain, BUT it was too late! 🙄 https://youtu.be/WblD51H5ggI?si=6qsV5x384UP3QWRr
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 oh, ok, but the graph of polling doesn't seem to show that as a time when support was falling.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Because of Corbyn's ambiguous flip flopping on Brexit since the referendum, Labour were already on notice. Theresa May knew Brexit would be a disaster, so trying to be sensible offered no clear differential between the #Tories & #Labour, hence her losing her wafer thin majority in 2017. Doris came along with 'Get Brexit Done' & put distance between the parties. Corbyn was all over the place, & support ebbed away to the charismatic Doris.
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 yes I think voters found the Corbyn flipflopping very off-putting.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 The night of that fateful TV debate, I felt something die inside of me! 😪 Labour activists were crushed & the stench of impending defeat never left us. All we could hear on the doorstep is "It's not Labour, it's Corbyn. Can't you get rid of him?" Blair Brown & Campbell warned him NOT to agree to an election, but because they suggested it, it seemed that's what pushed him over the edge into agreeing to have one. What a fuckin disaster!
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 I think an election became inevitable when the SNP decided to vote for one. I remember doing the sums at the time. I agree going for an election was a huge mistake for all the non-tories.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 No. It all depended on Labour votes. The DUP had a confidence & supply arrangement with the Tories. The SNP were on course to wipe out Labour, so agreed. Jo Swindon believed the Lib Dems could win so she too fell for the Tories demand for an election, but it still wasn't enough. After warnings from Blair, Brown & Campbell, this made Corbyn bite back & agree to the election in September 2019. It signalled the end for #Labour. 🤷🏾♂️
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 The Tories were voting for the election, as was DUP, and with libdem and SNP votes parliament was bound to support the call for an election.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 It all depended on #Labour mate. If you remember, the #Tories didn't even have a majority, & it needed a ⅔ parliamentary majority to change Cameron's 5 year fixed term parliaments. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-blair-idUSKCN1VN0RT
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 oof I forgot about the two-thirds rule. Sorry for wasting your time and I appreciate you putting me right.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 No worries mate. Like yourself, I'm here to share knowledge & to learn too. #Corbyn showed how useless he was for falling for the trap. What happened on 13th December 2019, is exactly as Blair predicted on 2nd September. Egged on by #Momentum & their belief they could mobilised the greatest election campaign force in history, they too believed Corbyn would win easily. In that moment, he proved what a naive political fool he was. 🙄
@a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 No! Like I said, it wasn't Corbyn's policies so much that were the issue, it was #Corbyn himself, but would the Corbynista's listen? Hell no! 🙄 Also, as it stands an election hasn't been called, therefore Labour hasn't released its manifesto. This being the case, why all the guesswork & criticism? Also... Given the choice of Labour in power under a new leader, or Labour in opposition with Corbyn as Leader, which would you prefer? 🤔
@0f342e77 @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Maybe I'm lacking the intelligence to follow your thinking but this seems muddled to me. I'm also mindful that your tendency to throw derogatory terms around regarding #Labour 's traditional base might link to a factor feeding into this muddle.
@a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Your initial statement seems closer to the mark. I can't make my POV any clearer. However if you're resolute in your Corbynesque beliefs, then I can't help you. I think it best you find a far left alternative & leave #Starmer & #Labour to forge its own path. Even today we don't all agree in the Labour Party, but we have a common purpose to rid the UK of the #Tories, & to start the arduous task of reversing 13 years of damage & corruption
@0f342e77 @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 You sound a little hopped up on #Starmer 's #purge approach, while muddling it with trying to get us to vote for him.
@a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 We don't want or need your vote mate Haven't you noticed no one gives a rat's arse what you do? 🙄 We just want you to go in peace. Join Momentum & be happy, but above all else, just leave #Labour alone You're not wanted or needed. I know it'll probably hurt your feelings, but this is why no normal people want to engage with you Corbynista's How many hours have you spent today bellyaching about 2019 FFS 🙄 It's done! It's gone! Move on!
@0f342e77 @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 You do post that 'don't get distracted' image an awful lot for someone who doesn't care how people vote. It's puzzling why people you're so content to subject to slurs and disdain, should provoke so much vulnerability just for rejecting #Starmer.
@a8a3ca9d @d4b01ab1 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Who cares mate! We've moved on & left you back in 2019 blubbing like a baby, & you're STILL crying! 😭 😂😂
