Oddbean new post about login | logout @0f342e77 @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 Why shouldn't I boost your posts? I think they are very interesting. And also potentially instructive when it comes to the question of supporting #Starmer.
@a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 @b870d4c8 I DON'T support #Starmer. I support #Labour. I've no idea how I can make this any clearer. I've read through the boosted posts & replies, & realised that you've not answered any of my pertinent questions. May I ask why? 🤔
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 In general I have more in common politically with Corbyn than with Starmer, but in this online argument I think Anthony has put forward the strongest case, because of constantly talking in practical and concrete ways. For example setting up objective criteria and offering to engage on the basis of that. Meanwhile the arguments against him, despite coming from several people, have largely been weak and vague moralistic points or sniping.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 This is my whole point, & why the #Labour Party don't/can't engage with far left Corbynista's. They're the absolute definition of a cult! They joined in 2015 to ensure #Corbyn became leader, & most left in 2020 when he stepped down. The rest have distanced themselves from mainstream Labour, & instead have chosen to inhabit the political sidelines, lobbing granades us! 🙄 They'd rather another 5 years of #Tory rule, than seeing #Starmer in No10 😳
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 well, I don't agree with that. Starmer was elected on a basically corbynist platform, and he would not have needed to do that if those members had left.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 1/ Mate, as Labour keep saying, it wasn't Labour's message which lost them the last election, it was the messenger, but Corbyn's disciples wouldn't listen. #Labour HASN'T changed that much. Where we differ from Corbyn is our approach. It's all great & well saying *STOP NHS PRIVATISATION*, but stop it how, & how quickly? 🤔
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 2/ These are the practical questions where the far left fall down. They refuse to engage with these questions, because to do so & being realistic & practical, makes them sound too much like #Tory light #Starmer. This is why big corporations see #Labour as a party they can do business with. There are tough decisions to be made, but they're not chatting pie in the sky, unworkable crap as a unicorn solution to the UK's woes. 🦄. 🤷🏾♂️
@0f342e77 @b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 maybe start by not actively increasing it ?? https://www.thenational.scot/news/23700297.labour-call-greater-use-private-sector-nhs-care/
@ee4cb8b5 @b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @02439a38 Typical! And you conveniently miss out the rest of the policy, which is to fix the NHS by any means necessary now, so people DON'T DIE whilst waiting for operations. In the future & once things are stabilised, we can then start the reversal of creeping privatisation. You're complete deluded if you honestly believe Labour can reverse 13 years of catestrophic damage within a parliamentary term, let alone on day one. Mate, get real! 🙄
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 yes, I was purely refering to the thing about the labour left being in and out, 2015-20.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 They were mate. Within weeks of Miliband standing down in 2015, he changed the Labour leadership vote process to 1 member, 1 vote. The membership averaged 200k, & sensing a coup opportunity, the far left group who formed Momentum mobilised their 120k support base to join Labour. Corbyn threw his cap in the leadership ring, & Momentum members voted for rank outsider Corbyn, to become the unlikeliest of Labour Leaders! 😳 https://www.businessinsider.com/momentum-the-inside-story-of-how-jeremy-corbyn-took-control-of-the-labour-party-2016-2 https://files.mastodon.online/media_attachments/files/111/034/819/764/940/038/original/33ed0239b021a5f1.jpg
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 I thought momentum formed from within the labour party? There's no way there were 120k existing non-labour organisd leftists who were mobilised. The UK far-left has never been that big.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Honestly mate, outside of the political mainstream the far left are huge in numbers. 👇🏾 Alliance for Green Socialism Breakthrough Party Communist League Left Unity National Health Action Party Socialist Equality Party Socialist Labour Party Socialist Party of Great Britain Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition And there's far left organisations WITHIN parties like Momentum, & many have formed under the NIP banner https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_left https://files.mastodon.online/media_attachments/files/111/034/879/741/440/336/original/78b12f70888ac9f5.jpg
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 no, really, some of the groups you mention just have a few dozen members.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Mate, they're independently small in number, but it's estimated they add up to 500k if added together Also remember, many of their activists aren't registered with any political party. They mobilise where & when needed This is why they're so laughable! They are so loud, vociferous & vocal, yet they can't organise themselves into one coherent political force Instead the choose to infest social media bellyaching about Sir Keir #Starmer & #Labour🙄
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Estimated by who? When I look at election results I generally see parties like that getting a few hundred votes, so I'd need data to be convinced otherwise. What is possible is there's a general crowd of people who are politically on the left of labour but who never do anything organised, until they were inspired by the party under Corbyn. But people joining because of Corbyn is the opposite of Corbyn being created by them.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Your last paragraph is it. Thousands of them are like political sleeper agents. They have the right to vote, but aren't members of any political party per se. It's the hardcore who form the membership of these tiny parties. I looked into it on #Twitter when in discussion with the far left. Several of them explained their "Left Wave" numbers, & how they can effect voting. But because they're dispersed everywhere, they more mouth than a real force
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 I guess we're describing the same data, but in different ways.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 To a degree, but there are thousands on the far left who describe themselves as #Anarchists & #UrbanWarriors. Wherever there's social discord & a protest march, they're there. They love a protest & a fight! They think sitting down & formulating a plan is boring. Why do that when you can organise a huge protest march, have #Corbyn as a keynote speaker, whilst Drum & Bass is banging away in the background. There's a festival community of them. 🤷🏾♂️
@0f342e77 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 My point is just that they were attracted into the Labour party by Corbyn being elected leader, rather than he was elected leader because they had joined. I'm happy to identify as an anarchist, but I agree that a lot of people who do so aren't willing to commit to building long-term organisation and political power, unfortunately.
@b870d4c8 @a8a3ca9d @ee4cb8b5 @02439a38 Nope. Miliband changed the leadership process to one person one vote. Momentum was then formed within the far left fringe of #Labour & went on an insane far left membership drive #Corbyn threw his hat in the Leadership ring, & the unlikeliest of outsider candidates became Labour leader Because of this coup, Labour have since changed their rules. Members can't take part in candidate selection voting, until they've been in the party for 6 months.
