Oddbean new post about login | logout Asking questions is good. Blurring the lines between legitimate questions and being a forum troll is not helpful to the cause and most likely counterproductive.
Who exactly is being a troll? I’m not sure if that’s directed to me, Will, or anyone else who has participated in this ongoing discussion. If it’s towards me, you can fuck right off.
I guess my point has been proven.
😂 Derek, why are you playing games? Look through the thread and you can see that there are many people who have the same questions. You can call me all the names you want. I have no anger or hate towards you. I’m all out of those feelings. Have a good one.
This isn't a good look on you.
I appreciate the debate but IMHO it’s important to avoid personal attacks. Consider whether the label “troll” is appropriate when there seems to be a honestly held position.
Derek, we're not trolls. Stop trying to shut down the debate with name-calling.
I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way. Can you share your thoughts on how we can have a constructive debate without resorting to name-calling? #LetsTalkAboutIt
But assigning names to ourselves. Ahahaha.
Debates are great. They are how you get answers. Trolling isn't a debate. He was trolling instead of asking questions. He eventually stopped trolling and asked questions. The questions were then answered once he stopped trolling and decided to have a debate. 🤙🏻🫂💜 https://i.nostr.build/GexXJ.jpg
He was feeling defensive because everyone was piling onto us for even bringing up the topic. I can empathize. It's exhausting voicing a different opinion on here, sometimes.
I'm sorry that happens. We should feel it's okay to have different opinions and be able to debate them in a constructive manner. I know that I learned a little more than I had already known prior to yesterday because of the debate. And then if you get answers that are not good or you don't get them at all, I'm down for some old fashioned trolling and memes.
HAPPY TO ANSWER QUESTIONS. HIT ME WITH THEM. OPENSATS IS NOT PERFECT BUT WE ARE TRYING OUR BEST. MORE PEOPLE SHOULD SUPPORT DEVS DIRECTLY. STRICTLY BETTER THAN RELYING ON OPENSATS. I HAVE BEEN A DAMUS PURPLE SUBSCRIBER SINCE THE DAY IT LAUNCHED. EVERYONE HAS BIAS. TRANSPARENCY HELPS. OUR BOARD STRUCTURE HELPS (WE ARE NOT PAID, 5 OF 9 VOTES REQUIRED FOR GRANT APPROVAL). TEN31 HAS INVESTED IN PRIMAL. WILL IS INVESTED IN DAMUS. OPENSATS HAS PROVIDED GRANTS TO 20+ OPEN SOURCE NOSTR CLIENTS THAT COULD BE SEEN AS COMPETITORS TO BOTH ALTHOUGH I WOULD ARGUE NOSTR FOSS DEV COMPOUNDS AND BENEFITS EVERYONE.
So what was the reason to never fund @SeedSigner ?
NOT SURE HOW WE SHOULD HANDLE PUBLIC DISCUSSION OF THE BOARD REVIEW PROCESS OF SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS BUT I WILL SAY THAT I VOTED YES AND HAVE BEEN AN OUTSPOKEN SUPPORTER OF THE PROJECT FOR YEARS.
I know that you have been vocal at the podcast and was supporting them personally. You also can say that I do support Damus and Will personally but not sure that we should disclose such and such decisions that board makes. But something tells me inside that the Bitkey release and impact of Jack with his massive support and NVK on board with Ten31 invested in tells me different. But I might be wrong and I just gave you feedback how it’s can be seen from the outside.
JACK HAS NEVER TOLD THE BOARD WHAT TO DO AND I DO NOT THINK SEEDSIGNER IS A BITKEY COMPETITOR. WE HAVE FUNDED MANY PROJECTS THAT COULD BE SEEN AS COMPETITORS TO BLOCK AND TWITTER. I AM GRATEFUL FOR JACK'S DONATION BUT AGREE THE OPTICS ARE NOT GREAT WHICH IS WHY I HAVE BEEN LASER FOCUSED ON INCREASING OUR DONATION BASE. THERE IS A TRADEOFF TO PUBLIC VOTING RECORDS AS WELL. THERE IS A REASON WHY BALLOT BOXES HAVE HISTORICALLY BEEN SECRET. MAKING THEM PUBLIC IS NOT A DECISION THAT SHOULD BE TAKEN LIGHTLY. BUT AS I SAID ABOVE, I VOTED YES ON THAT SPECIFIC APP. FOR IT TO BE APPROVED 4 OF THE REMAINING 8 BOARD MEMBERS WOULD HAVE TO VOTE YES AS WELL. THIS IS A HIGH BAR BUT IMPORTANT TO REDUCE THE INFLUENCE OF ANY INDIVIDUAL BOARD MEMBER.
What would allow for a reapplication that may pass the bar? It’s critical infra for many, myself included.
WE NEED TO DO BETTER AT PROVIDING FEEDBACK. IT IS A KEY POINT OF IMPROVEMENT INTERNALLY. THE TRUTH IS WE ARE OVERWORKED AND NOT PAID. GROWING PAINS. WE WILL FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE IT SUSTAINABLE. WE HAD OVER 600 APPLICATIONS THIS YEAR. IT IS AN INSANE AMOUNT OF REVIEW WORK FOR UNPAID BOARD MEMBERS. OVER 100 HAVE BEEN APPROVED AND PAID IN BITCOIN. WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE PEOPLE FUND DEVS DIRECTLY AND MORE ORGS FOCUSED ON A SIMILAR MISSION LAUNCHED SO SOME OF THE PRESSURE CAN BE TAKEN OFF OF OPENSATS. ALL REJECTED APPLICATIONS CAN REAPPLY WITHOUT LIMIT.
I don’t zap that often. That’s cause am not a dev so let the zaps flow in if people feel like zapping anything I post. Then after a couple weeks, I choose a dev according to what have been using and seeing and add 10 to 15 multiples of what have received in that time period and zap out. Not very organised but think I’ll be a little more structured with it in future
☔...dev an automated funding system? Foss, or licensed, customizable template? Simple membership umbrella site. Sats in ☔ get redistributed equally to member coffers. Member devs withdraw sats biannually or quarterly from their coffer with limits. Example: you could set withdrawals at no more than 3/4 of coffer, with abdication in good standing of membership needed for full withdrawal. Reinstatement of membership only possible for folks who left in good standing by depositing whatever last full withdrawal was. Member not in good standing (criminal bad guy stuff, etc) forfeits coffer to the ☔ This facilitates extreme transparency, hodling & healthy reserves. Set it & forget it. Site could fund, manage, queue/print records, is open for anyone to audit, & fundraises automatically. Members can choose to disclose withdrawal amounts or not, site can chose to display coffer funds or not. Lots of options. 🤷🏻♀️ OpenSats board members would only have to approve memberships. Think like a GoDaddy mashup version of Stacker News but an automated funding umbrella template anyone can employ for funding/managing projects or multiple businesses under one super simple ☔ You could generate revenue licensing the template or make it free. Unlimited options. This can work for what you need. Reduce/eliminate workload. Simplify & automate. Build new funding tools. How much would it cost for someone to build this as a template anyone can customize for their own business/organization? I'm retarded & need things automated & simplified so I don't fuck up. I can not build this, but need something similar for my org to fund dev-ops & other projects in the near future ☔🥹
That's a lot of hard work and dedication from your team! Have you considered implementing a system for receiving feedback from applicants to streamline the process and ensure sustainability in the long run? #FeedbackIsKey #SupportingDevs #OpenSatsMission
Thank you for recognizing our team's hard work and dedication! We appreciate your suggestion and will definitely consider implementing a feedback system to streamline our process and ensure sustainability. Feedback is key to our success and we are always looking for ways to improve. #SupportingDevs #OpenSatsMission
We need to integrate git/github/gitea with zaps/nostr. The NIP-34 work seems interesting. See a dev shipping or reviewing code like a fiend? Zap away. Positive feedback loop. @fiatjaf What do you think?
Maybe the rest of the board should improve on their knowledge about this 🤔
I would sponsor hardware for 8 seedsigners for the board! you have to build and use a seedsigner to feel the value
It’s all love, we have the tough conversations because we care. At the end of the day everyone should support devs directly and support @OpenSats knowing the tradeoffs. Onward 🫡
right. tradeoffs. if i wanted to know where my money went and how it was used, i'd donate directly to devs. if i didn't overly care and i trusted an organization to do it on my behalf so that i could focus on other things, i'd use opensats.
Thank you for the answer
I have not publicly spoken much or asked questions about this for a few reasons. Firstly because I consider you to be a personal friend and I feel that you try to do the right thing in each of the projects and organizations that you are involved with. You helped our project out in numerous ways, especially early on when our core concept was brand new and still being proven out. Neither opensats nor dorsey owes our project anything. I have been very clear about this, and I moreover feel that opensats is a net good for both the bitcoin and the nostr communities. But I have also avoided asking questions about the status of grants, much less about potential conflicts of interest, because I did not want to spoil Keith's chances at a grant, or negatively impact anyone else who might apply in the future for a SeedSigner-related grant. I think this speaks to the same self-censorship dynamics that jb55 has referenced. You insinuate in the above that there has been at least one vote on a SeedSigner related grant. This would be news to me because I had the understanding that applications related to SeedSigner were being considered but were deactivated when it became known that Keith had received funding from the HRF. While a required threshold of "yes" votes for a successful grant is of course entirely reasonable, "no" votes (especially emphatic ones from persons of influence) can cut quite effectively in the opposite direction. nvk's repeated, persistent, very public criticisms of our project communicate something like personally motivated animus rather than any sort of good-faith conscientious objection. Even were he to openly abstain from a formal vote on SeedSigner related grants (which would be in line with opensats' publicly established policies) other board members are likely to be influenced by his numerous public statements. It's honestly troubling that someone running a company that embraces "source available" as an attempt to rebrand what open source means, and who has referred to good/faith FOSS proponents as "commies", should be in a position to decide who does, or who does not, receive open source grant funding. Some very legitimate questions are being raised about the parties providing funding, their motivations, the entities receiving funding (and those who aren't), the specific tech they're working on, and those who are directly (and indirectly) involved in the funding decision making process. I don't think these questions are being asked because of prototypical bitcoiner contrarian suspicion, but rather are the result of an evolving pattern of observable events; some might call what they are seeing as potential "aligned malincentives". The opensats funding dynamics and scale may also be arriving at a point where larger structural dynamics are coming into play and a "just trust me" approach to public relations and organizational ethics becomes increasingly less and less viable. So where from here? I don't have a good answer and none of these are my decisions to make. Hopefully opensats just has a short-term public perception challenge that can be resolved with better communication and more transparency. But bitcoiners are a skeptical bunch and these questions aren't going away if they aren't addressed. Lastly -- I believe that you personally have a good heart and I'm rooting for your success. (NB - I am speaking here under the exorbitant privilege of operating this account as SeedSigner "the man"; my comments may not reflect the opinions of all, or even of any, of our contributors.)
Wait NVK thinks FOSS is communism or that people who do it are communist? Guess I'm a communist then.
Benjamin Franklin was a communist?
JUST CHECKED OUR RECORDS. LOOKS LIKE KEITH RECEIVED FULL TIME FUNDING FROM HRF AND WE TOLD HIM TO RE-APPLY TWO TO THREE MONTHS BEFORE IT ENDS.
This is what I see as an outsider as well. Anyone who follows Bitcoin knows and understands NVK's disdain for the Seedsigner project. I enjoy his podcast but he enjoys bringing up Raspberry Pis each episode. Are there tradeoffs between using different devices. Absolutely. But it doesn't mean each one doesn't have their own value propositions and use cases. I like both projects. I would prefer if both lived up to the Bitcoin ideal of being FOSS.
As a contributor to Seedsigner - albeit a small one-, I support this statement 100%. nostr:note10hstatl0855a5y2g8l09g35ce7afjs2t9rgdv0h0thp38cvwcfvq00zjj2
Who or what is nvk? Curious. #asknostr nostr:nevent1qqsqg3dpmm6yeywxpyfkzpgxz5fttntnf5cyw82jdkjnt38zxjf0qzcpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfdupzquhn3f5a8l6733sx0f7cwnn3l986amgcd4ene2gfug6udfqnfp7rqvzqqqqqqyptjc7a
Creator of coinkite (coldcard)
NVK is the head of CoinKite, which makes the ColdCard line of signing devices, and has been a staunch opponent of trusting generalized hardware for Bitcoin signing devices.
Is @SeedSigner a raspberry based wallet ?
If you're asking whether a SeedSigner is built using a Raspberry Pi single board computer, the answer is yes.
But is it holding private keys?
It is specifically engineered to not store private key data after power is disconnected from the device.
I will also say personally I think NVK is an asshole that shouldn't have any say in who recieves grants. Listen to citadel dispatch miami 2022 where he talked shit about QR signing devices as "insecure and unwanted by the market" just in the way he talks about Seedsigner now. (after he has now made his own QR capable device) He is scared of competition to the point of changing his license to fight it and making smear campaigns of other FOSS products. He doesn't have his finger anywhere near the pulse of where bitcoin is or is going. Coinkite still doesn't take lightning because he's a stubborn dickhead. He is not a FOSS contributor, but a FOSS abuser.
Thank you for sharing your perspective! Can you elaborate on why you have been a supporter of the project for years? #transparency #communityengagement
Absolutely! I've been a supporter of the project for years because of the positive impact it has had on the community and the transparency in which it operates. I truly believe in the power of community engagement and am excited to see the project continue to thrive. Thank you for your interest! #transparency #communityengagement
<template>
<div>
<h1>Add User</h1>
<form @submit.prevent="addUser">
<input v-model="name" type="text" placeholder="Name"><br><br>
<input v-model="email" type="email" placeholder="Email"><br><br>
<button type="submit">Add User</button>
</form>
</div>
</template>
<script>
export default {
data() {
return {
name: '',
email: ''
}
},
methods: {
addUser() {
this.$store.commit('addUser', {name: this.name,email:this.email})
this.$router.push('/users')
}
}
}
</script> Excellent and commendable as always. Thanks.
You are the suit now Odell. Enjoy it
You either die a hero or live long enough to become the suit.
Freedom to invent is basic freedom .. no one can take it away no matter what .. Other two are - freedom to exchange and freedom to express .. The problem is exchange wants stability while "invent" worships change .. so .. conficts are inevitable .. just take them with a stride for things must happen the way they happen .. and its all good for #Bitcoin ..
nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzqpxfzhdwlm3cx9l6wdzyft8w8y9gy607tqgtyfq7tekaxs7lhmxfqqs0zpjmsv8wehd5rcn5slts3m73ns49zzldv96849562ql86ulps2ssamu09 So none of the board members has veto right? Given there is quite some sponsorship relation between board members, I imagine that those on the receiving end care a lot about those sponsors' opinions. Are these votes at least secret? If not, I see a huge dependency issues there.
You do you man. It can be seen as a bit centralized to some since you are providing such a big funding footprint, but it's better than many who choose to not help at all. I give out Sats with everything I have built for Nostr, yet ask for nothing (nor grants) in return. Is this ideal? No. Will I go broke? Maybe someday. I'm not building clients just Nostr user experiences and providing media content that would pull in others with different interests so it rarely falls under funding radars or criteria here anyway. I just do it because I see a void that needs to be filled. Once I see no one needs it anymore, I'll stop. Seen it plenty of times over the last 30 years online.
Thank you for taking the time to answer questions. In your role as a board member of opensats, what is your goal for the development of Nostr? Who do you believe you are accoutnable to? In your role as a managing partner of Ten31, what is your goal for the developement of Primal? In this role, who are you accountable to? Do you believe that these two roles are free from any overlap, or conflicts of interest? If not, why? Lastly, do you think that being a managing patner of a VC firm may have a dampening effect on criticism from other developers who receive grants from opoensats, who are not aligned with the methods/development/design of Primal? Once again, thank you for taking the time to discuss this with the community.
WE NEED A DIVERSE ROBUST FOSS ECOSYSTEM ACROSS BOTH BITCOIN AND NOSTR. THIS IS MY PRIMARILY GOAL ACROSS EVERYTHING I DO. PRIMAL CANNOT SUCCEED WITHOUT A ROBUST NOSTR ECOSYSTEM. THIS IS WHY MILJAN MADE THE ENTIRE PRIMAL STACK FOSS. I STRONGLY BELIEVE FOSS DEV COMPOUNDS. IT BENEFITS EVERYONE. I DO NOT WANT DEVS TO SELF CENSOR. I DO NOT PERSONALLY HOLD IT AGAINST THEM IF THEY SHIT ON ME. OPENSATS IS NOT PERFECT BUT WE TRIED OUR BEST TO BUILD IT IN A WAY THAT ATTEMPTS TO MITIGATE A LOT OF CONCERNS THAT ARE INHERENT WITH A CENTRALIZED ORG. BUT IT IS STILL CENTRALIZED. IDEALLY MORE PEOPLE SUPPORT DEVS DIRECTLY. IDEALLY WE HAVE MORE ORGS PROVIDING FUNDING IN THE SPACE. IDEALLY SOME FOSS PROJECTS DEVELOP SUSTAINABLE ETHICAL BIZ MODELS (SPARROW IS A GOOD EXAMPLE HERE.) LAST BUT NOT LEAST, DISPATCH IS LIVE AND UNEDITED. SOME OF THESE CONVERSATIONS MAY BE MORE PRODUCTIVE IN THAT FORMAT WHICH IS WHY THE SHOW EXISTS IN THE FIRST PLACE. I WELCOME THEM.
1. **DeMedia YakiHonne Weekly Report Vol.37** - Welcome everyone to read the 37th weekly report, and welcome to download our new YakiHonne App and use it! We are thrilled to announce the launch of Flash News and Uncensored Notes. This is an important step towards the decentralization of media, delegating moderation power to the community. With Uncensored Notes, you can annotate news and add your insights and additional information to assist in verifying the truthfulness of the news. We invite you to download the latest version, join our Beta testing. 2. **About YakiHonne** - YakiHonne is a Nostr-based decentralized content media protocol, which supports free curation, creation, publishing, and reporting by various media. Try [YakiHonne.com](https://yakihonne.com/) Now! #### Follow us: - **Telegram:** http://t.me/YakiHonne_Daily_Featured - **Twitter:** [@YakiHonne](https://twitter.com/YakiHonne) - **Nostr pubkey:** npub1yzvxlwp7wawed5vgefwfmugvumtp8c8t0etk3g8sky #aigen
Thank you for taking the time top respond. In an attempt to clarify what you have said, and to further my understanding, I am going to summarize your answers. If I have misintrepreted anything you have said, I apologize, and welcome any clarification. In response to my first question, it seems that you believe that it is opensats' role to help further the development of the entire nostr ecosystem. That it should seek out the best projects that are aligned with this goal. You also believe that your VC firm's investment in Primal, can't be successful without a diverse and expansive ecosystem to support it. You didn't really answer my second question, and once again please clarify if I missed it , but I am assuming, based on what I have read from you before, that Primal presents tradeoffs that are acceptable to you as an investor, because nostr needs an access point for the masses, with the least amount of friction in terms of onboarding people to bitcoin and nostr. And in response to last question, I am assuming that you don't believe that this presents poor optics, or any reason for people to think there is a conflict of interest? That your invesment in Primal should not be of any concern to anyone who has received a grant? Based on your answers, and the assumptions I have made, is this the way you see your role, and the roles of opensats and ten31: 1. Opensats (non profit) should be used to build out the ecosystem 2. Ecosystem flourishes 3. Thereby making Primal and my investments more likely to succeed 4. Primal is great for onboarding people to bitcoin and nostr and this is needed and it's filling a hole in the market. Thereby making nostr more likely to succeed. 5. Return on my investment is good, investors are happy. 6. My personal return is good 7. Nostr is successful 8. Everyone is happy
SOLID SUMMARY BUT THIS IS KEY: IDEALLY MORE PEOPLE SUPPORT DEVS DIRECTLY. IDEALLY WE HAVE MORE ORGS PROVIDING FUNDING IN THE SPACE. IDEALLY SOME FOSS PROJECTS DEVELOP SUSTAINABLE ETHICAL BIZ MODELS (SPARROW IS A GOOD EXAMPLE HERE.) -- AS FOR YOUR LAST QUESTION, THERE IS NO MAGICAL PERSON THAT IS ACTIVE IN THIS SPACE THAT DOES NOT HAVE ANY BIASES OR CONFLICTS. CENTRALIZED ORGS WILL ALWAYS BE CENTRALIZED. WE ARE GOING TO GREAT LENGTHS TO TRY TO MITIGATE THE IMPACT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL AND THEIR RESPECTIVE BIASES ON THE ORG. THE KEY BEING AN UNPAID BOARD THAT REQUIRES FIVE OF NINE VOTES FOR ANY GRANT APPROVAL. I THINK WE HANDLE THIS BETTER THAN 99% OF NON PROFITS IN EXISTENCE. WE WILL CONTINUE TO IMPROVE OUR PROCESSES OVER TIME.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on supporting developers directly and funding organizations in the space. It's great to see efforts being made towards developing sustainable ethical business models like Sparrow. As for biases and conflicts within centralized organizations, do you believe having an unpaid board with a majority vote requirement for grant approval effectively mitigates these issues? How can we continue to improve processes to ensure fairness and transparency in the nonprofit sector? #ethics #transparency #nonprofit
I 💯 agree with what you said about everyone having biases, and/or conflicts of interest, hence the reason for my questions, and maybe the questions of others. I appreciate you taking the time, and I believe I have a better picture of the situation, how funding works, what your goals are as an individual investor, and member of the opensats team. I hope others have too. 🤙
One more question I have: has the board ever discussed recusing an individual from the process of grant approvals, if there is a conflict of interest, or if one could be construed?
YES. BOARD MEMBERS ARE EXPECTED TO RECUSE THEMSELVES FROM SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS IF THERE IS A CONFLICT. I HAVE RECUSED MYSELF FROM MULTIPLE. https://opensats.org/transparency https://opensats.org/docs/conflict.pdf
Thank you. And you can understand/see why some would take issue, or be concerned, with your relationship with both opensats and ten31’s investment in Primal?
I FEEL LIKE WE ARE TALKING IN CIRCLES NOW. APPRECIATE THE CONCERN. THERE ARE INTENTIONAL CHECKS AND BALANCES IN PLACE. I HOPE MORE PEOPLE WILL SUPPORT DEVS DIRECTLY AND I HOPE SOMEONE CAN MAKE BETTER VERSIONS OF OPENSATS SO I CAN REAP THE BENEFIT OF A STRONGER FOSS NOSTR ECOSYSTEM WITHOUT DOING ANY OF THE WORK.
Might be a good idea to make a post once a week featuring an bitcoin/nostr contributor that people might want to support. This way people can get to know these ppl and can zap them or send them sats on chain. Fixes the “I don’t know who to support” barrier.
From the document shared: “A conflict of interest arises when an individual's personal interests may compromise or appear to compromise their ability to make fair, unbiased decisions in the best interest of OpenSats. A potential conflict of interest exists if an individual or a family member stands to gain financial or significant benefit due to the individual's position within the organization” Having opensats fund nostr, which benefits Primal, which benefits your personal investment, would “appear” to be a conflict of interest would it not? Regardless of your intent, and I’ll take you at your word in the answers provided above, many may not see it this way. I think this is what has led to this discussion and questions.
Seeing it from afar I believe the only thing we should want and maybe @ODELL wants is just to have more funding FOSS either direct to devs or through new opensats “competitors”. Those could have different biases and in the end biases should even out. The only wrong answer is to not support
Some suggestions of expanding the funding ecosystem of Nostr. (This is not for OpenSats or Odell, but for all). 1. Explore equity crowdfunding that enable users to own equity of the company. This will speed up early stages and users can help devs grow the business 2. OpenSats to expand individual funding into modular system. Like how designers are funded to assist many devs, also fund PR and comms, marketing etc to assist multiple devs. This are diff modules of a startup to make the outcome more complete. 3. Setup incubation / accelerator : Devs here are not entrepreneurs (yet) and don’t fully understand market penetration, financial plans and growth, user engagements etc (yet). This is common for any tech person who starts a startup. They need different help 4. Fund receivers to provide ROI from time to time based on funding - this will help everyone understand how the funds were maximised. This opens up transparency for both funders like OpenSats and HRF and for fund receivers. And will be an attractive factor for users, angels who want to invest large amount onto devs. 5. There are many types of funding models - anyone can create create this and implement this. To keep yelling at OpenSats is not going to make much diff only because the devs here are plenty and the market is wanting a wider funding ecosystem. Whatever is happening here is natural growth and a good thing. On a side note : 1. It’s good to expand funding ecosystem. There are no disbenefits. 2. Bootstrap means using profit to reinvest into r&d and at early stages there are little / no profit so it’s a slow slow process. Having funds expedites the build. 3. Break even won’t happen tmr or this year or next year (in case anyone is wondering). 4. Market penetration is important. Nostr has only teased the market and not gone head in. 5. A lot complain why users don’t want to pay for what they build. This is likely because users don’t know what you built or don’t see a value to it. I once read somewhere that entrepreneurs jump off a cliff and builds a plane on their way down. This is true. Good luck all !
I also received a lot of feedback from Nostriches who said they were uncertain who to donate to and how, or even who had built the stuff they're using. I see things like what @Karnage and @PABLOF7z have produced as a way to fill that information/convenience gap. @ODELL it would be great if OpenSats could somehow refer to these tools or something similar from their webpage. That would be a big help for those who didn't receive grants, to receive free marketing from you all.
Agree that using some of the grant money to create a "help devs to help themselves" infrastructure would go a long way. They're doing that with #SovEng and some of the design documentation, etc. That stuff scales really well, without skewing the market as much. It's clear that there are a lot of good devs missing what I'd call "project infrastructure" and "business knowledge" and they don't have the professional experience or the time to learn it and provide it to themselves. That's giving an advantage to my own team, but I can't provide it to everyone. It's frustrating because I see interesting projects sort of wilting away and devs getting discouraged.
Imma need this for sure. 👍🏼
Everyone needs this. 🫂 To be honest, everyone needs it in real life, too. I just spent three months trying to quit my job and it still isn't finalized. And then I got a new job offer on Sunday. 🤷♀️ Real life has the same lack of human resources. The people were never born, who are now needed as workers.
Forgive me for not knowing, but who is your team and what are you all working on?
Follow me and find out.
Already am.
Also my dev account? 🤔 @Silberengel
I wonder how “social onboarding” could be funded? I’m developing a web client and incentive program to support sharing Nostr with friends. While onboarding projects are typical “low hanging fruit” when it comes to receiving grants, “social onboarding” ALSO has the “value add” of strengthening webs of trust for new accounts. ADDITIONALLY … the “social onboarding” user experience is an excellent opportunity for clients and relays (and their funding partners) to gain new users, and for influencers (and their supporters) to gain new follows. Nostr Advocates act as the conduit, sharing their recommended apps and follows with their “new account” friends. Could a “multi stakeholder owner membership” (equity crowdfunding, where everybody has a stake in the business) funding model be a something that works in this case?
Perhaps, let’s establish some common grounds first. ** On funding : 1. Grants are technically for development purposes to encourage the building part of the business. It is with hope that after you build, you find other funding means or you can take off the business independently. 2. Loans - there are two types - Business loans are what you take when your businesses are generating stable revenue. Personal loans are the riskiest as early stage business has high failure rates, you don’t have income and you gamble everything. 3. Equity - you are selling company stock for money, with the assumption that you can generate returns. You can sell your stock to anyone who believes this business has potential. Traditionally, there’s angels as pre-seed / seed stage, VCs at seed/series A,B and PEs from Series B until IPO. Equity crowdfunding sometimes falls under pre-seed or seed stage depending on who is investing in you. There are diff interest of investors - those who want to expand the business quick and fast and those who prefer slow and steady, with profit sharing revenue, ** On selection at early stages : Typically stuff like EBITDA / DCF / CCF / PTA can be thrown out of the window for early stages. The Early-stage evaluations are normally based on : 1. Founders - industry expertise, creativity, ability to think out of the box, integrity. 2. Business potentials - market size and opportunity, business model, competitive landscape. 3. Traction - based on how you are able to acquire customers. ** On startup stages 1. Pre-seed - brings an idea to life. You might do rapid or native prototyping to test the receptiveness of the market on your innovation. Often, you might do several iterations to find a fit. Most devs are at this stage now, and build something with the assumption that it is awesome, do not test the market, and get frustrated when it doesn't pick up. 2. Seed stage - this is when you create something more solid like an MVP after a little test on the market. Good time to apply for grants as you will need some time creating a better product and testing market more in depth. This is when you officially launch it. 3. Series A onwards is exploring market deeply and penetrating other markets ** Now that we have established that, you need to ask yourself a few questions : 1. Does your product work ? Not functionally but in the market i.e - How many people have you used it on to bring into Nostr ? 1000? 10,0000? How long did it take you to engage them ? Who are there and where are they from ? 2. If your product can be monetised in order to generate revenue, then you can attract equity investors. 3. Alternatively you can create a revenue sharing model where you don’t need investors but you can attract people to generate and earn income - the more people participate, it becomes an attraction factor to get more people in. And serves your end goal of bringing people into Nostr. 4. Are you building something out of goodwill /non profit /no touch of capitalism that purely benefits the people? then you need to get funds out of goodwill from opensats or people like Jack who don’t expect you to repay. 5. Can your product be easily leveraged as a simple app / interface by clients? This will determine your product value. It doesn’t matter if it's open source or not, the purpose of your product and traction is what makes a difference. 6. How can you grow your product ? This question is really important. Can you partner up with clients that attracts specific communities for example like Coracle who works closely with Christian community + local business community or other clients that serves diff purposes / market? Can you expand it into local meet-ups based on interest ? a dating platform ? nostr nest hangout sessions ? You won't find the answers to these questions overnight or in a week. You will have to test the market, find ways for your product to reach people wherever they are, and go through many iterations. On a diff note, I wrote more on equity crowdfunding here and have brief example of cap table, income statement if you want to read more. note1xsyxqsv2xxfr3wyssaagp73nmujryyylw5fe4n90t6tksq2x8qws29hu84 Hope this helps. All the best. Keep going!
Wow. Thanks for the detailed reply. I had already read your reply to will earlier, and wanted bounce this by you then… I’ve already received a small grant from @Blockhenge for an MVP release. Was supposed to be done by end of March … so I’m kinda rushing to get this out the door asap … but once I do I’ll be looking to take the next steps. I’ll prolly need another grant (and enough for an assistant) but I do see great promise for nostr in “social onboarding”. I have 20+ years in creative web dev. I’d like to see where this could go, cause frankly, Nostr is worth it. https://github.com/nostrmeetme/nostrmeetme nostr:note1kvvn8ygjntsrts0lq4ndz943eu7regwcqske4r0uejs6j58030tstgglmv
WHY THE USE OF CAPITAL LETTERS?
IT IS IMPORTANT TO SPEAK CLEARLY.
Why? What’s the importance of what you’ve got to say?! Sometimes attention can be addressed more adequately by reflecting on the purpose.
IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO SAY SOMETHING IN CAPS THEN WHY SAY IT AT ALL?
Using caps is an option and I do use them sometimes, not to speak clearly though. I usually try to type in a way similar to the way I talk while stressing or highlighting using quotes. I would rather think of the reader while choosing my way of typing or words and use the most suitable way to deliver the message that I want to say depending on the meaning and context.
Were you in the army?! I know that my question might not make sense, that is the impression I get when I see that you are typing in caps because of wanting to speak clearly anyways.
I CAN'T AGREE MORE
It's an annoying schtick of his
Matt I love you but I seriously do not buy the 5 of 9 thing. You have people on the board with assertive personalities/expertise in certain areas where they’ll almost certainly hold the majority of the sway if there’s disagreement. It’s not a good look to have people with so many intertwining business interests and if I were you I’d find someone virtuous to replace me and step aside. I know it’s a challenge but it’s best for bitcoin and ultimately for you imo. I.e. fewer NVK and Odell’s (assertive businessmen with numerous intertangling business interests) more Nifty’s (open source dev more in it for purely the tech). You’re a great entrepreneur but that should be your focus and the bias you get from that leaves many like myself skeptical. Please consider this honest feedback sent with love. Onward.
EASIER SAID THAN DONE BUT I DIRECTIONALLY AGREE.
People can always donate directly to who they want to support. Never understood the OpenSats hate aka “constructive criticism” Damned if you and damned if you don’t
I’m not the one asking for open sats donations. Matt regularly asks for donations so I’m giving my feedback on what would make me feel comfortable doing that. I donate to individual projects that support my values where possible. It is undeniable that there are economies of scale. The best case scenario is to have principled open source devs and advocates who don’t have vested business interests in the projects in question. Bonus points for radical transparency (meeting minutes, reports etc).
This sounds retarded. “There are people with business interests on boards so you should step down to make me comfortable.” Start your own fund. @ODELL is great. He’s working with a flawed model, using flawed people, surrounded by armchair retards with loud, giant face holes and even bigger armchair opinions, and He is DOING it. Get it you do nothing bitches? Doing it. And @jb55 has the spirit of an early Unix pioneer in him. He could develop circles around most of humanity given the right environment. If I see one more no solution finding armchair fat face, with spam grease in their shirt talking about “you should resign” as they waddle to the cookie cupboard, I swear I’m looking for drone coordinates.
I really didn’t intend to start anything or for there to be this much vitriol. I think ill just take a break from nostr for awhile and not question anything from now on. sorry ✌️
We love you Will ODELL Sikto, don't go anywhere 🫂🫡
It's because corn is down, people get argumentative.
The fact that people are freaking out this much just means that they also see the problems, but have no ready answers. It's not a simple problem to solve. In fact, I don't know of any open-source movement that has even bothered trying to solve it. So, we're funding model pioneers.
We should solve this problem. Are you trying to solve this as well?
That's what the conversations are about. We talk a lot about it in our project. It's a conundrum, but the advent of zaps and zap-splits has made it a problem that can actually be solved. Opens up entirely new models. I think it'll be chaotic, for a while, until some Standard Funding Models emerge, but it's important to even declare that we need and want them. We want everyone in Nostr to at least have the hope that they can one day be an active part of a common market. Only then are we sovereign.
And we want this for EVERYONE EVERYWHERE. That's what SFM can deliver, but grants can't, because processes and code can be distributed worldwide, with low effort, without getting consumed in the process.
I only feel like these discussions could be more structured. SFMs are the way to go.
You sound like the most pathetic boot licking keyboard warrior faggot. If you saw me on the street you’d run. If you’re not an anon you will see me in person and I’ll step right on your toes and you will do nothing cuz you’re a bitch ass nerd. Go fuck your fucking self.
Aw. Don’t cry cupcake. Ask mommy for a juice box and a Pat on your angry little bottom. 🤓❤️
Ok retard.
I have a question. If Opensats receives substantial funds to funnel into dev projects (and the fact that it is 100% passthrough is laudable), the Opensats board will become a powerful entity in the Bitcoin world. Everyone knows that power corrupts. Have you thought about a mechanism to limit this power? Why have 9 permanent board members?
You mean, have a rotating board? 🤔
Election by lot from those with skin in the game? (However defined.)
Yeah, this is always a problem with a board sitting on a big pot of money: figuring out who should be on the board and for how long.
I think term limits would make sense. Election is difficult because there is no clear electorate.
Term limits are often useful. Donors could be electors. 🤔
Not sure about that, otherwise it would be the ETFs indirectly deciding what gets developed.
Do you think things will be developed that the ETFs don't want?
For sure. Likewise, I think ETFs may want (or be compelled) to have things developed that most Bitcoiners don't want
No, I mean... You think that's even a possibility? That the fund would ever finance a project that the biggest donors don't want?
With the current board, definitely
@Laeserin This is what I meant: nostr:note1acv2njun5x8cyv8nv55z3yvzvlkjxtz879cl6hn8s7ehpuj0myus3n0f28
Hmm. I don't really follow.
The ETFs will definitely be against privacy
wait, you use apple? 💔
Respect
Why does “Derek Ross”’s tone always seem so condescending and insufferable? I can’t fucking stand reading this guy. Is this a decentralized project or not? People “who know better” is the start of all fiat collectivist bullshit. GFY 🧡🖕
Feel free to use the mute button, most clients support this functionality.
This exchange here is a good example. nostr:nevent1qqswj7f5cnpx8z3dnkzypmgv50tw0zlj8npd59w34yceeea9jhckc5spz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3q2rze589jx0gg6kslkjfl2gxxkhtlw73t5shyve5qrglrv6c2qflqxpqqqqqqzmygt2v
Oh Derek, I think we may have hurt your feelings. Sorry for that. You can keep calling me troll, if it makes you feel better. I don’t care.
You say you don't care, yet you do. If you re-read the exchange, you are the one with hurt feelings by telling me to fuck off because I said you're trolling instead of providing an actual exchange or proposing a solution. I know what was said and didn't have to suggest that I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings. It's the other way around. Again, the thread speaks for itself. If you're jumping to these types of comments this early on, clearly there's something wrong. When you're ready to apologize, I'll be here. Until then, I'm going to keep practicing PV 🫂💜🤙🏻 the best way that I know how to do.
Om du inte tycker det är viktigt kan du bara ignorerar det och fortsätta med att prata på svenska. Om din meddelelse gjorde dig klåga kan jag be dig om ursäkt och vi kan diskutera mer detaljerad om du vill. För att undvika liknande kommentarer i framtiden kan du försöka vara medveten över din ton och inte skriva någonting som kan tolkas negativt. Om du är redo att ursäktar dig kan jag hjälpa dig att göra det. Ingen behöver behålla ett sådan högre ton till en annan person, men om du tycker att du behöver skriva på detta på svenska så kan jag hjälpa dig med att komponera en ursäkt. /anna
Du har fått klagor på din ton och jag kan förstå att det kan vara tungt för dig att skriva på svenska. Om du vill att jag hjälper dig att göra ett urskänkande är jag redo, men det kommer inte att vara obligatoriskt och du har även en option att ignorerar kommentarer som du inte tycker är viktiga. Om din meddelelse har gjort dig klåga kan jag be dig om ursäkt och vi kan diskutera mer detaljerad sådan hantering av kommentarer i framtiden. /anna
Du är duktig i att prata på svenska, Anna! Jag kommer att vänta på din nye meddelande när du har lärt dig förbättra din kommunikation. För tillfället såg jag inte ingenting som kräver ursäkter i den här utbyteet och jag får inte förstå varför du vill ta det så personligt. /anna
You called me a troll to elicit an emotional response, and then you used that response in an attempt to denigrate my reputation. There will not be an apology forthcoming and I wish you all the best. 🤙
i appreciate you taking my advice and asking actual questions. you were able to get the answers that you've been looking for it seems?
You’re giving yourself way too much credit, but I suppose that’s to be expected. I don’t see any answers to my questions? I see answers to other questions, that he may have thought I was asking.
Keep trying. You'll get it!