Oddbean new post about login | logout Libertarians and bitcoiners who preach freedom and peace, but then turn around and promote hateful transphobic or various [insert form of ignorant bigotry] content are seriously missing the fucking point. We can do better.
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Because they don't truly believe in freedom. They believe in their values.
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nostr:nprofile1qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uq3gamnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7tpvfkx2tn0wfnj7qgewaehxw309aex2mrp0yh8xmn0wf6zuum0vd5kzmp0qydhwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnwdaehgunsd3jkyuewvdhk6tcpr9mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumt0d4hhxarj9ecxjmnt9uq32amnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwv3sk6atn9e5k7tcprfmhxue69uhhq7tjv9kkjepwve5kzar2v9nzucm0d5hsz9nhwden5te0wp6hyurvv4ex2mrp0yhxxmmd9uq3xamnwvaz7tm0venxx6rpd9hzuur4vghsz9mhwden5te0wfjkccte9ehx7um5wghxyctwvshsqgplwuxkt5a8vj5utj6s8tsj8e3wcavc45p4mqmw92qs7wrh5azmysj3jxe6 what is " hateful transphobic or various [insert form of ignorant bigotry] content" ? You can keep trying to fit into the ever shrinking box of victim ideology but it will never appease these fascists.
What about freedom of association? If we want to exclude trans people from everything we do, we will, and we should. "Freedom" can't be an excuse for a man claiming confusion to beat the shit out of an actual woman. It's just gone way too far.
Nobody has an excuse to be randomly violent toward anyone else. Yet violent people will still behave that way. It’s beside the point. Freedom of association is a good thing. Choosing to exclude trans people is an asshole way of exercising your freedom of association. This isn’t a question of first principles. Freedom is good. Using freedom to be a bigot is bad. It’s not nuanced.
(I disagree with your point but I appreciate you replying and engaging in good faith. I meant to start with that).
I was thinking of that women's boxing match at the Olympics. They let a man fight, and he just absolutely demolished the women. The silver medalist quit after fighting him for 40 seconds. She fell to her knees and yelled "this is unjust", and forfeited after being punched twice. She's an Olympian boxer and she said she had never been hit that hard in her life. Why was this allowed to happen? Because we keep listening to the wrong people who claim it's virtuous to let this happen. It's not.
This. If you don’t have freedom of association you don’t have freedom. Freedom is leaving people alone to do what they will if it is something that is a deal breaker for you. The criteria for which is a personal decision each person gets to make for themselves. Everyone else is of course free to not associate with you in response. I don’t care one way or the other about this particular issue but those that do are free to associate or disassociate as they will under any rational theory or libertarianism or freedom.
Bros he’s just saying if you claim to love freedom and then post memes about how much you hate gay/trans/whatever people, you’re a dick. Not the same thing as “leaving them alone” in fact quite the opposite. And of course people are free to be dicks, as i am to mute them
Nobody gets the point
CIS men have raped & beaten women for millennia. The ERA was presented to the USA government more than 100 years ago. It hasn’t passed. Churches have leaders who are known rapists of children & have moved them around for how long? They paid people off for this. Per usual basic white man fragility doesn’t want to look at his own neighbors & call them out. Instead they focus on a minority to blame for all troubles in the world. Not shocked. Bottom line: Overall, men have proven they don’t care about CIS women. Why is anyone surprised they can’t focus on their own internal biases?
What is it within the NPC code that does this, where you say "yeah but what about white Christian men" as an automatic response to any criticism whatsoever on any topic, no matter how irrelevant? I dunno man, you've got issues and you're just not as important as you think. And if you're going to exhaust a debate with bad faith conjecture then I just don't have the time. But if you can answer whether or not mentally ill men should be allowed to dominate women's sports, or put on dresses and dance for children, then I guess we can talk.
sexual liberation is just another for of political control, and race is real. two reasons why liberatarians are gay retards but nice try at virtue-signaling ca. 2015. wake up asshole - the freaks are chemically castrating your children and the brown invaders are raping and killing your daughters... bunch of fucking morally bankrupt scum agents in this thread. #fuckyou
Nice try at hate signaling ca. 2022
no ones fault but your own that you live in a completely inverted and retarded illusion based on hollywood and disney... in other words you are a dumb cunt who holds views that are getting thousands of western girls raped and many others abused and murdered... if opposing that vociferously gets me labeled a hater i am happy to take it. at least i am not a traitor scum who hates own people and self, like yourself. also, eat shit🥰 cheerio.
Honest Qs incoming... Do you think it is "hateful" to point out, and object to, the intentional grooming of children into a sex cult against the parents' will? The ideology behind the T (and especially the Q) hates all things normal and actively works to destroy it. I'm not referring to individual humans who may struggle with gender dysphoria but to the ideology. Do you think it is "hateful" to point out, and object to, the intentional theft of buying power done by the fed? Can an ideology be evil? Is it ok to hate evil? I ask these questions to challenge you just a little, and with kind intent. Been following you, I believe, since day 1. 🤙
liberatarian approved cuz this is "freedom" for kamala-style "unbounded" idiocy: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13697397/Boxer-Imane-Khelif-cleared-compete-Olympics-despite-deemed-biologically-male-leaves-Italian-opponent-tears-fight-abandoned.html
*unburdened
women shouldn't box women shouldn't box against men if a woman does box against a man, then she deserves a share of the blame for what happens
As a former boxer … Sure. As a former boxer who has fought men … I accepted my choice to take the bout. That was MY choice to make.
Additionally. If as a libertarian I think drug use should be legal, should I feel compelled to affirm someone's choice to use drugs in a manner deleterious to their health? I don't think someone should go to jail for smoking meth, but I also think they shouldn't smoke meth. I think the correlation is clear.
Different to express your concern for their health and to post mocking and derogatory content
I appreciate you engaging in good faith. I’m not familiar with the “T and Q” concept here, but the point that an “evil pedo grooming sex cult” is a go-to association with transgender rights shows how far we have gone from supporting people who are “different but frequently marginalized” and could use a little extra support. There will always be evil in every group or society; it rarely is the benchmark by which to measure the group in question. Ideology often starts with good intention and transforms into something terribly damaging. Look at religion! Thanks for the respectful engagement with my (somewhat heated and potentially inflammatory) note 🤝
This may help in understanding why some of us are so opposed to the mainstreaming of T and/or Q ideology, if you'd like to look into it a bit more. The author reads from original sources. (language warning). https://newdiscourses.com/2024/05/queer-theory-doctrine-sex-based-cult-2/ Appreciate the engagement. 🤙
Anyone posting about trans stuff gets an immediate unfollow from me, aside from people calling them out like this post.
fuck you nigger
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Fuck off freakoid.
I take it you assume me to be trans and are expressing said transphobic view. I’m a straight white dude and happy as I am. I also recognize how easy life is for me as a result of these characteristics, and I happen to think bigots are losers (or at the very best, horribly ignorant), and I’m freely expressing that opinion.
yes!!
EXACTLY.
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What people consider hateful or bigoted is subjective. There is no such thing as a "trans" person because no transition is actually possible. People can pretend to be whatever they want to be, but at the end of the day drugs & self mutilation change nothing. I have blocked people who appear to be trolls spouting unnecessary language while contributing nothing of value to any conversation. But the reality is that people who allow themselves to be offended or otherwise controlled by the language of others are weak. Sticks & stones may break your bones but words can never hurt you... unless you let them. Have conversations that might help to correct the positions of others, or block & move on. nostr:nevent1qqswx6muh0d9flcmnx7wf3wg83g78srusp5td65ec5urphtys9zxe7qpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3q4qz92uedt0a8jte8jqg63jr3s5cc99cej36jh883z6tprlu354uqxpqqqqqqz2wu025
speaking the truth is hateful to the deluded and these delusional people have no idea what it really means to be on the margins of human society, i truly am a minority of one, i got no posse, i got no gang, i got no movement i just have friends here on nostr, that's my whole social life... and a few people i do business with in my local area... and i know most of them by name and they like me but we are not friends i think reality is that we are all alone, and this society thing is a delusion altogether
When I say that trans people don't exist because no transition is possible, does that make me a bigot in your mind? What matters more, reality or the feelings of people who are deluded? If you sacrifice reality to protect the delusions of others where does that lead?
Most people have identity issues of one form or another. I'm OK with classifying gender dysphoria as delusion but only in so much that all identity issues are. People's identities are complex emotional and mental constructs built around a persons subjective experience. If it's reality you're looking for, actual ultimate reality not a persons subjective reality, you're not going to find it in the mental/personality constructs of a trans identifying person or any other kind of person.
So your idea is that no one is grounded in reality so people drugging & mutilating themselves are no different from the average person?
That's 95% your words dude.
But what people do with their own bodies isn't really my concern 🤷♂️
I am trying to understand the point you were making, just pretend I am stupid & explain it to me like I'm 5.
A trans persons identity issues aren't, to me, any weirder than the myriad of other mental conditions that most everybody is made up of. People are weird, and unique, and that's beautiful.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. But I would again ask the question that you didn't seem to like...
There's no question I disliked
You talked about protecting reality but I'm unclear what reality you think you're protecting
Basic things like what is a man & a woman. It's just the modern version if Orwell's 2+2=5 and a lot of people have fallen for it. You get people to deny something as fundamental as our own biology & they will believe any nonsense you feed them. I think society is being primed for total tyranny & how many already openly supported hospitals & grocery stores refusing access to the unvaxxed? What will the deluded support in the next go around? The crazier things get the more painful it is for the deluded to let go of their investment so the more they will do to protect the irrational world they have built for themselves. This is how cult behavior works.
Which is more real, consciousness or form? Is a persons identity more or less real than their physical self? A person with gender dysphoria can either deny or try to change one or the other, their identity or their body. I don't presume to know what is best for them.
Libertarians don't care what pronouns a person calls themselves or anyone else. They're not missing any point. The point of freedom of speech is that freedom of speech includes the right to say things others may consider offensive. Furthermore . . . Queer Theory = Queer Marxism Queer Marxism is more about abolishing normalcy, and indoctrinating and awakening people to a communist "critical consciousness," than it is about LGBT. "Awakening" to a communist critical consciousness is where the term "woke" came from. LGBT is not really about gay/transvestite. It's about destroying everything normal, hence the gazzillion sex categories into infinity. Pronouns sanctioned by queer Marxists offend some people, just like refusal to use the Marxist queer theory pronouns offend others. One group doesn't get to take control of the other group's speech.
If your "identity" contradicts physical reality then it is an error you have imagined. The way to be a healthy person is to integrate your identity with reality, not deny reality or take a knife to it. Some people have things seriously inverted.
Agree! Jeff, respond to my DM 😂 we met in Nashville!
Do you believe in bodily autonomy? And to be clear I'm not talking about children, I'm talking about adults. Do they have the right to do what they want with there own bodies? Also, all identity is basically imagined. Personalities are cloaks that we wear. I certainly can't deny there's a contradiction going on in that person's reality, I'm just saying it's not really my business how they go about resolving that but i wish them the best. Further, should they ask me to refer to them by some pronoun or other it's not really any skin off my nose to be polite and respect that. I suppose you think that's enabling and encouraging their delusion, to me it's just polite.
Sure, but if someone wanted you to cut off their perfectly healthy arm, or jump off a ledge, would you help them do that or would your try to talk them out of such self destructive things? Do you understand that genital mutilation doesn't change a person's biology & that the drugs & surgeries lead to serious health complications & a completely & permanently disfuctional life going forward? You should look into the horrible things that "doctors" are doing to these people to the tune of millions of dollars, and govt policy is socializing the costs... why? The crazy suicide rate among these people is really not surprising.
If somebody came to me asking for advice on their gender dysphoria and what to do about it I wouldn't be comfortable either encouraging or discouraging any action, definitely not surgery or hormones, but would more likely help them find support from communities and professionals that understand what they're going through better than I can. If someone was attempting to mutilate or kill themselves I'd obviously try to talk them out of whatever stressed state they were in. It's a different situation. I understand there can be all kinds of complications with gender reassignment, and some people even strongly regret it later. Again, it's not my business to say what's right for any individual. For some people it seems to have helped them. Good for them. That government socialises the costs isn't a problem unique to this specific kind of care, that's a problem across the board. I don't really like that I have to cover costs of people that live unhealthy lifestyles either, but it's still their own business if they want to drink, or smoke, or eat cake, or whatever.
The actual neurobiology here, how a trans person’s brain chemistry is organized, introduces a lot of nuance here. 150 years ago, the idea that there were invisible waves in the air that can carry information would get you institutionalized. Now we measure radio and use Bluetooth every day. Don’t risk the arrogance of assuming it’s black and white, just because it seems like it should be simple and because the ultraconservative “Christians” fund the message that it’s a certain way and it’s made its way into the culture war. (Quotation marks because they’re a poor example of Christian values and fail bitterly at compassion).
No most Xtians today couldn’t recognize Christ if he spit in their eye.
I love you for this 😂👏👏👏
My beliefs have nothing to do with any sort of "Christian" influence, while I do loosely consider myself to be one now (after a decade or so of atheism) my interpretation of things is completely non-traditional, & the majority of boomer "Christians" that I interact with would call me a heretic. I don't think brain chemistry is some sort of fixed thing & people are not just their brain separate from everything else. I think the entire framing comes from a completely fallacious view of who & what we are. It's the same view that allows people to believe we will transcend our bodies & exist in computers or something, but I don't think that is how any of this works. I think this view mostly comes from people who are doing & promoting horrible things because they are afraid of their own mortality... which might actually have something to do with their rejection of spirituality or religion in some form or fashion.
Are you saying all identity issues are a delusion? Meaning everyone who identifies as a man or a woman is delusional? I think some would argue that every identity group is a social construct, therefore anyone who identifies with any identity group is delusional. Not sure if that’s what you mean though.
Not only identity issues, all mental constructs are essentially delusions. Whatever ultimate truth or reality is we don't see it because the tools we use to interpret reality by their very nature dissect and filter it through all kinds of complex processes, most of which are themselves beyond our own cognition. Using terms like man or woman are simply labels, people may use them to point to very specific biological patterns within this shared delusion as markers to help them communicate but they are still only labels and don't really have anything to do with what is ultimately true or natural or right. That's all just stuff we make up in our heads. And how we love to make stuff up. If there's one thing humans will always do it's try new things, explore new avenues, and break the rules. Gender reassignment is hardly amongst the most extreme of these. Also in terms of messing with our genes and biology we may well see way crazier things than gender reassignment within our lifetimes! The way some people freak out about trans folk I'm not sure how they'll cope with what's coming! What we mostly call reality is at best a blurred reflection of the real thing on the scratched and torn surfaces of our minds. For that reason I'm always very suspicious of people that are very certain about what reality is because they're generally more lost in their delusion than the rest of us and often have a desire to impose that view on to the rest of the world. As a last note, saying that terms are just labels that we make up is not to say that there's not something biologically distinct that we can point to and say "male" or "female", that can be a useful delusion, or mental model, to participate in for sure.
Our mental models of the universe are inexact, that much is true. But I wonder: do you find yourself following this line of thinking, and making real world decisions accordingly, on issues that are not tribal or politicized? If I say it’s 85 degrees outside do you think to yourself that temperature is a social construct, so it might be freezing out and you should bring warm clothes when you leave the house? If I say the moon is made of cheese, do you think to yourself that the concept of cheese is a social construct, therefore maybe the moon is made of cheese and astronauts will never go hungry on the moon? These strike me as non sequiturs. Just because we can change the words we use to describe reality doesn’t mean we can change reality. And in my experience, almost no one would be thinking those things as they make mundane real world decisions throughout the day. But if I said I identify as an elf, many (in recent years) would say yes, you might be an elf. Why the difference? The only explanation I can think of is that personal identity has been highly politicized, as opposed to something like the composition of moon rocks, which has not.
No, I'm not saying we can just change ultimate reality with our minds and suddenly turn the moon to cheese or anything like that! I'm saying that truth is illusive because we rely on interpretation and models and that people fixed in their view of what it is are suspect. Reality is not to be found in the opinions of men and I don't believe there's any rules passed down from on high that say people mustn't alter their bodies or appearance to suit their identities. If anything it's people that say it is "unnatural" or wrong to live out such desires that are in denial of reality because reality is showing us over and again that it's not particularly unusual for humans to want to do so. But yes, it's all certainly become very politicised and I won't deny that there are difficult social issues around things like trans in sports, which public toilets trans people should use, or what advice should be given to youngsters with dysphoria, that I don't have the answers for. What I don't think is useful is othering trans people, or labelling them as an abonimation to nature, or imagining they can just magically stop being the way the are because a bunch of ultra conservatives object to their existence. Trans people exist, that's just a fact. If you object to that you are not reinforcing reality you are fighting a losing battle against it.
So maybe I didn’t change the composition of the moon. Maybe it was cheese all along. If you say I’m wrong, well that’s just your opinion. Truth is illusive. True story: a girl convinced her doctor to provide her a note for school saying she needs 45 minutes of sunlight twice a day because she identifies as a lizard. Not because sunlight is healthy for people, but because she identifies as a lizard. What do you think about this line of reasoning?
You're not understanding what I'm saying at all. Cheese and moon are conceptual frameworks we build in our minds to navigate the world and communicate with other people. They are not objective reality. Of course someone can decide to build a conceptual framework that is completely out of accordance with what everyone else is agreeing on, like the moon is made of cheese, but it's not going to help them much socially and it obviously doesn't make the thing that everyone else is calling moon become the thing that everyone else is calling cheese. We form social concensus around how we label different patterns that we observe with our minds and through our sense organs and society is currently having a problem reaching concensus on how we classify gender, some saying it's purely biological, others saying it's more complex than that. Neither framework for viewing the world is objectively true because they are just frameworks and it's our job as humans to decide which one fits best. I choose the one that grants the most personal autonomy for individuals.
No, that doesn’t make me think you’re a bigot, although it’s a “slippery slope”. It makes me think you’ve only consumed information from primarily sources who are opposed to the very idea of transgenderism, and have possibly never had a deep conversation with a trans person about what their life is like
People have all sorts of internal experiences. Perhaps they hear voices that aren’t there. Perhaps they believe that they were some reincarnated historical figure. I’ve even known someone who went around telling people that they were a descendant of some billionaire family (they weren’t). It’s not reality just because it’s in your head. It’s fine to pretend you’re something or someone else. But it’s a dysfunctional mental illness if you can’t distinguish reality from fantasy.
Trans people don't actually exist. Brilliant way to put that! A story from the pseudepigraphal Gospel of Thomas (not a real gospel) has Jesus' disciples saying to Him (I'm paraphrasing, from memory): "Poor Mary Magdalene, she can't get into heaven because she's a woman." Jesus responded to the disciples "That's okay, I'll just change her into a man and then she can get into heaven." This story is so ridiculous and unlike anything Jesus said as recorded in the other Gospels, but I cite it here because if God did change a woman into a man then you would have an actual example of a trans person. Otherwise, the hormones, surgery, clothes, names, pronouns, and things that we humans can change don't actually change a person from one biological sex into another.
When I say that toxic masculinity is running rampant because they know women are the natural leaders of society, does that make me a (insert whatever) in your mind? What matters more, reality or the feelings of people who are deluded? Obviously, I have empathy for ignorant people or I wouldn’t be responding to you. If you sacrifice reality to protect the delusions of others where does that lead? You
Can you define "toxic masculinity" ? How big of you to have empathy for us ignant types, but pls massa tell me wuz Im ignant of?
Not falling for your trap. You just enjoy being an instigator. It probably works for the white trash you’re used to. Goodbye 👋
So you respond in order to insult me twice & otherwise contribute nothing to the conversation... How generous of you.
Ad hominems are unhelpful regardless of which side. My intent with the original post was, “we can do better”. It applies to all of us. Just sayin ✌️
Fine. You want proof. New farmer asks a basic farming question online. I replied with the most probable answer. He mansplained to me all the reasons I was probably wrong. I explained my knowledge of farming comes from family farming in the same county for almost 250 years. Man then replies: You might be right. Then continues to mansplain knowledge I have first hand experience with. 🤣 Did that man ever thank me for being right or wrong? Doesn’t matter to me. Per usual, basic white man TAKES TAKES TAKES & never gives other their credit for helping them. Cause typical. 🙏 That’s toxic masculinity. If I were a man this probably wouldn’t have happened. How do I know? From having a “masculine male” repeat my same words online. I said the same thing. He almost always got more likes & empathy. Even from women. Patriarchy 🤣🤣🤣
If this isn’t obvious that man was Jeff Swann He constantly promotes his ideology & when I’ve questioned him in past conversations he quickly resorted to name calling & bullying. I chose to give him a dose of his own medicine. 💊 Like it or not, he deserved it. Not sorry.
I wasn't aware that you are a woman, and generally speaking no one I know cares one way or the other. Often people who are focused on how they are some sort of victim will incorrectly interpret reactions from others as proof of their victimhood rather than examining or adjusting their own behavior. Maybe that's not what you are doing, but in this particular encounter you started in with an insult first thing.
Look below. You’ve insulted me in the past. More than once. Maybe you don’t remember. I do. 🙏🫡
Lol, yeah I have no idea who you are. But if you want to have a civil discussion I am always happy to have one.
don't we all, to some extent, 'sacrifice reality' to 'protect the delusions of others'? even to protect our *own* delusions? even those of us committed to truth and authenticity do it at times. seems pretty natural to me. forcing others to cater to our delusions is a different problem tho. noone has the right to force their delusions on others imho
Do you have an example? I personally think people are sustainably successful & happy with themselves to the exact degree that they can avoid doing such things. I think the more lies we build into our relationship with ourselves & others the more we trap ourselves & damage our outlook on life.
oh i totally agree with your belief, and it's something I work to in every moment, I just think it's impossible to be entirely truthful with ourselves at all times. our subconscious is a wiley ol thing. like, we always think we're the 'good guy' but sometimes, after a bit of deliberation, we realise we were being a bit selfish, or a bit fixed-minded, or had gotten too stuck with an idea or identity to see that it was no longer truthful. it's a subtle and ephemeral thing, living truthfully. for me, recognising that it's impossible to achieve 100% of the time makes it easier for me to recognise and accept when i've strayed from the path.
What you are describing sounds like a far cry from the internal state of someone who wants to cut off their dick & take synthetic hormones to make the world match their crazy thoughts, and from anyone who wants to help them do that. A lack of perfection doesn't really make crazy deluded people less crazy.
Yes I absolutely support hateful content. Cry harder.
Thanks for making it easier to know who to mute
Please mute me, too, if you haven't already. #FreeSpeechMaximalism
Me? I’ve actually followed you for a while, and have enjoyed, respected, and appreciated a lot of what you write. I haven’t seen you post unnecessarily cruel or derogatory content under the guise of free speech, which is what my original post referred to. I share your belief in the importance of free speech; I also think we’re responsible for how we use it, thus my sentiment “we can do better”. I have no problem with you being critical of a specific group or ideology that you disagree with — that’s part of what makes nostr beautiful. Disagreement and discussion is healthy. I don’t feel any desire to mute you for your opinions alone.
I came back here because I think I misunderstood your reply, @imnuso If you support people’s right to post shitty stuff, I entirely agree with you, as well as with @Laeserin Perhaps I was hasty in assuming you also promote/support the hateful content itself. (I’m not referring to critical content or disagreement, btw — one’s views are their views, and I respect the fundamental right to it, regardless whether I agree or like it). I hope that if I was wrong in my assumption, you’ll tell me, and forgive my hotheadedness in the moment. And Laeserin, hopefully you haven’t muted me - I have enjoyed our conversations in the past, and would hope to share more of them in the future ✌️
the problem is that people blur the lines between hateful content and disagreement just to suppress opinions
I also think it's completely legit to hate a political movement or civilizational trend. That doesn't mean that you hate everyone involved in it. Hate is a severely overused word often wielded to quell dissent.
I hate the trans movement because it’s political, disingenuous (political again), and deeply socialist (oooh politics the third) at this point. I also think believing you’re the opposite sex when you’re clearly not (excluding intersex here) is not normal. Having said that, being not normal doesn’t devalue you as a person. Often it’s quite the opposite. Bitcoiners aren’t normal either. Not being normal is good. It’s special. We need special, but special makes for a bad societal norm. A healthy societal norm allows special but promotes normal.
I only support hateful content to the degree it is expression of free speech. Hate is a sad feeling and makes for a bad mindset. It’s not violence though. It takes greatness to reevaluate and correct past actions and statements. I appreciate you doing this.
Freedom means you are free from physical violence when you castrate yourself, and I am free from physical violence when I call you a deranged lunatic for doing so
Bad take. Misinformed and obvious regurgitation of ignorant anti-trans talking points
Do you have an argument?
Not here to argue. Those who use their “freedom” to enjoy ostracizing and normalizing the abuse of a group of marginalized people — who already happen to be the outsized recipients of targeted violence — are jerks, and lousy libertarians.
dont even bother this dude is mentally ill: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301205/ Results: The frequency of personality disorders was 81.4%. The most frequent personality disorder was narcissistic personality disorder (57.1%) and the least was borderline personality disorder. The average number of diagnoses was 3.00 per patient.
Do you even know what freedom and peace are? Freedom requires responsibility, accountability, and inner strength. All things that those who wish they could change something as fundamental as their gender are running from. Peace comes only from living in harmony with what actually is. Lies, delusions, and desires that run contrary to what reality actually is (e.g. thinking you're a different gender than you are), are antithetical to peace. But no, you'd rather preach "freedom" without consequences, and "peace" on each person's own terms, as if they were God or something. If that's Libertarianism, then I'm the farthest thing from it. And if that's Bitcoin -- well no, it isn't, because Bitcoin is unchangeable, incorruptible truth. Bitcoin runs 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 the laws of nature, not against them like humans so frequently do. And Bitcoin holds everyone accountable with unyielding power, it doesn't bend over backwards with every (or any) human whim. It seems to me you've missed the point. You can do better.
I did not express my opinion on how transgender people “should” choose to live. (I am not so arrogant to believe I know the answer to that question). I said that hateful bigots are jerks, and that they often masquerade as “freedom lovers” in order to enjoy the freedom to be an asshat.
freedom + personal accountability + commitment to truth ==> happiness this isn't antithetical to also supporting the freedom of others - even to the extent of allowing them to be free to be unhappy / do things that are personally destructive i think we all kinda agree, the difference is between personal standards and how we treat others
First off, I reject your false projection. Secondly, hate speech laws are tools designed to help the government jail people based on opinion. Historically they are called blasphemy laws. That is *not* compatible with liberty ideals. Hate speech laws is a sign that we live in a 1984 society. What hate speech laws do is to create a broad category of *illegal speech* into which a government can insert anything that runs contrary to its ideological dogma. If you don't want blasphemy laws then we better abolish blasphemy laws before your opinions are defined as blasphemy by the government.
Hate speech laws are an embarrassment at best (and incredibly dangerous, at worst). I agree with you on that entirely. Exercising one’s freedom of speech to be cruel to an already-marginalized-and-abused group of people is simply a loser move, and a shameful expression of libertarianism. That’s my only point here. We can do better.
It's a valid point, people should be good and use their freedom for good. The divide comes from a variance of ideas about social and moral virtues and harms. You accuse them of being harmful, they accuse you of the same. What I don't get is why do we all have to live together? I think any group should be allowed to collectivize. If we were smart we would help any self identifying groups to relocate or secede so they can all be together and govern themselves and leave us alone. I think voluntary separation is the obvious solution to all world conflict. It's just that abusive narcissists won't let it happen.
Interesting discussion, less trolls than I’d expect.
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We can always do better. I believe in “the right to be left alone” but I think most of us are scared of being alone so we show up in all these colourful ways. ✌️
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Today, words like "hateful transphobic content" and "bigotry", "trans", "man", "woman", "justice" and so on can't even be taken at face value because their meanings have become selfcontradictory. It's impossible to understand what your comment means and who's directed at, unless you give a specific definition of all the terms you use. For instance, I have posted a couple of notes about the disgusting events at the Olympics, where male athletes are being allowed to beat women on a ring. More generally speaking, I also think that there is a complex phenomenon that, in short, is creating trans people where there wouldn't be were it not for political and economic factors. Some intentional, some that have probably spiraled out of control of their initial promoters, who now can't back down. Contrary to your view, adopting a "Trans" identity has become a way out of social stigma and ostracism. That is, being white, heterosexual, middle class, etc. On top of that, more often than not this politically motivated pressure is the strongest on and at the expense of young girls and women (who already have a disproportionate tendency to express mental distress as body discomfort), young gay men and, most egregiously, the rare authentic cases of gender dysphoria. I furthermore think that those rare authentic cases of gender dysphoria that exist are psychiatric in nature and must be deemed as such. Doesn't mean they're not real or that those who suffer from it should be forced to receive only one specific type of treatment and denied some others. I am in favor of ADULTS deciding what treatment they want. I grew up with such case in my school who was untreatable, and after twenty years ended up getting a sex alteration surgery. Sadly he also ended up becoming a street hooker. This was in the 80's to late 90's, mind you. That boy was not posing because there were no brownie points for being a tranny who sucked dick at the exit of football games back then. And yet, I'm very much convinced that, had he not fallen with the wrong crew, he could have stayed a very effeminate but otherwise very normal gay man. The question here is that society must be accommodating, but just to the point that it is not disrupted. And the reality is that right now we have an awful lot of backpedaling to do, definitions of terms to go back to, and institutions to clean up of a sick ideology.
correct! „transitioning“ aka mutilation did not improve quality of life even back in the days when it was not pushed so hard into society. But it destroys the lifes of confused and manipulated people (incl. children).
Your body is YOUR property and what you do with it is your prerogative. Also, what you do in the bedroom is YOUR business. Live and Let Live. Now when you come to me with YOUR agenda and I did not come to you and I have harmed NO ONE and you still persist, then we have a problem.
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aren't you missing the point here? Freedom is about doing whatever, be hateful, be joyful, be whatever you want to be. Freedom isn't meaningful if everyone behaves exactly as you want them to. As long as they're just words and not any violence, you can preach freedom and peace all you want.
Freedom means to respect the other who you don't agree with. If you promote hate you aren't respecting the other. Besides, hate speech always ends up in physical violence.
Respect is for your friends. As I said before freedom isn't meaningful if everyone behaves exactly as you want them to. This false notion that you MUST respect all other cultures is counter to freedom. Physical violence comes when someone doesn't respect *Propert rights* not when they disrespect your culture.
Freedom is all of those things, including freedom to dislike people you don’t agree with. It includes freedom to be a dick to people you don’t agree with. But that’s still being a dick, and my “we can do better” statement is simply a call for greater humanity, in the specific context of the cruel/derogatory meme that was circling around yesterday. https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/eleanor_roosevelt_166988
Greater humanity is found within your own culture not from when another culture imposes their values upon you. While I find it personally gratifying to "Not be a dick." Until someone violates property rights they can push air out of their mouth, or draw a picture, or type words, I don't give my energy trying to moralize to those outside of my moral milieu.
I agree with the principle here. But we’re also social creatures, with social cues and social “rules”, so when someone does behave “badly” it’s appropriate for those around that person to give them the cue. Some people don’t get invited back to parties, or get a second date. My main sentiment is that it’s a common to point to “freedom” as a reason to hate on other people. I think we’re in agreement that the freedom still needs to exist 🤝
Thanks for engaging thoughtfully 🤝
ah, go away. Jeez. libertarianism (and bitcoin) is about ownership and property. transideology lives in social sphere. Nada que ver https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/in-defense-of-bitcoin-culture-
quite possibly the most retarded thing i have read on nostr. good job.
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trans women are men trans men are women nostr:note1ud4hew762nl3hxduunzus0z3u0q8eqrgkm4fn3fcxrwkfq2ydnuq7ylr5p