Oddbean new post about login | logout It'll get there among many other ways too. I'm certain of it.
I mean, GitCitadel headed in that direction. But we shouldn't be the only ones. We're not even funded. Just seems like the most straightforward way to tackle community security but any group based feature is a Rube Goldberg machine of complexity. Let people isolate themselves because they want to be safe from harassment or community vandalism. women on nostr want to form a group to chat without men? Yes please! Users dedicated to using your client that speak in ways cohesive to you? By all means! Specialized group wanting an interoperable community with other communities? Of course. Have white list relays to connect to pull in from select relays for your feed and not broadcast your notes to all relays at once. Reports actually incentivize relay operators to do something about bad behavior and relay operators get paid for the quality of the moderation for their community.
why relays? why not moderated communities? or a better version of that NIP?
Federated Nostr hubs?
Sir, We're not a single topic forums. We're the entire show.
I'm happy with starting outbas the entire show and letting users navigate to their communities. Reddit has "the entire show" with their popular subreddit. You can have a freeforall relay thats fine don't let this conversation discourage that. But nostr does not need to be "just" the entire show. The capabilities already exist but are an after thought.
consider the cases in levels of complexity: 0) minimal base case for nostr is 1 person sending their notes to 1 relay. 1) 20 people white listed to a relay. Their feed it literally one relay and the people connected to it. 2) 2 communities with similar values sharing posts from relays 3) (nostr how everyone uses it) individuals with tens of relays to broadcast to and anyone at the intersections see posts. The subreddit nip, whatever it is operates at level 3. That's fine but i think we should focus on 1 and 2. Private groups can work with level 1 without cryptography. Anything more open is a gradient from level 2 to 3. If you just select a relay to post to for a given condition, thats not even a nip - the functionality already comes baked in with how nostr works right now. Clients just make relay selection an afterthought.
Cc nostr:nprofile1qqsr9cvzwc652r4m83d86ykplrnm9dg5gwdvzzn8ameanlvut35wy3gprpmhxue69uhhwetvvdhk6efwdehhxarj9emkjmn9qyxhwumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmvqyg8wumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnhd9hx2yhtlun & nostr:nprofile1qqsw3znfr6vdnxrujezjrhlkqqjlvpcqx79ys7gcph9mkjjsy7zsgygpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsz8thwden5te0dehhxarj9ekh2arfdeuhwctvd3jhgtnrdakj7qgkwaehxw309ajkgetw9ehx7um5wghxcctwvshspg7dju please explain why you left the fediverse.
But why focus on 1 or 2? What benefits does it have?
The entire point of relays is that they are replaceable: unless you can self host a relay (hard) you can’t really trust any. We need to focus more on making it accessible to the average user to create a community without being beholden to a relay host that can terminate their relay and in a more affordable way than paying a lot for a relay
i think that relays using other relays as layer 2 event stores is the way to go for this, and it meshes well with users with subscriptions and peers on a post-paid system if they pull more than they send
making the assumption that relays are fungible is just not a valid assumption in the current state of the network, also, nostr:nprofile1qyt8wumn8ghj76rfwd6zumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgtcppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qyvhwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnwdaehw6r9wfjjucm0d5hsz9thwden5te0wfjkccte9ejxzmt4wvhxjme0qyghwumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnvv9hxgtcqypftfgrkhjammsap4marwdvpdnm5nya3hrdjq2cpezputzl8ltvt6lmlag9 : there is no NIP for data replication, and that would break one of the most important NON-specifications of the protocol
> relays are replacable which is one of the reasons that they're not getting any attention or funding even though they are the backbone of nostr. Relays allow to be blacklist based, whitelist based or any mix of that. This is only arguing for relays that bias themselves to being more white listed, allowing them to decide on their own rules of engagement. Nothing is being taken away. Nostr acts as diffusion of information. I am all for that and am here because of that feature. Broadcast to any reachable relay to get your information out. Outbox is great, but i argue that this is the maximal situation and we can encourage more small world infrastructure (small world networks being lots of connections in hubs i,e the damus relay, while sparser connectivity in non hubs like private group relays). NIP01 has been touted more or less as being the only requirement for "nostr", and this is just sticking to that ethos. we can reel things back, have pockets of high activity in wide open relays where everything goes and pockets of activity with focused discussion. all this is towards advocating for more of a loose sense of community and conversational security. As it stands, there is no expectation of that. Reports exist but there is no incentive for acting on it. Closed off communities actually encourage both users and relay operators to keep the space clean. Something like this will actually make search and organization easier - because your searching and retreiving from a smaller, topic specifc set of relays from the set you have selected (like a car enthusiast set of relays) If everything is wide open, I understand how and why there is pushback on expecting a curated feed. What i'm advocating is an ability to fine tune the knobs of openness from the relay side and the ability to specifically send your data somewhere on the user side. Let the data flow and diffuse out to all areas through free-for-all no moderation relays, but also let pockets of organization and structure come from the areas that have walls up (white lists). We all get in through global somehow, and your follows list is just a smaller global, same thing with these segregated communities - the global is the 200 or so people connected to 5 relays that share similar values and topics, and your follow is an even narrower version of that community - but now global is actually palatable. then the other point - if you think of only nostr as the prebiotic soup and everything is wide open I get why there is pushback for on NIPs on nostr of course you can't get concensus with nips on 200 relays where anyone can comment or fork. I get "just use mastadon or twitter if you want moderation". It doesn't need to be that way 100% of the time though. you can have your nostrnipsrepo.com client that only points to one relay that you and a few others have write access to. Let that be the defacto place for the rules for anyone wanting to look at the spec. Those messages, while not writable to that relay are still broadcastable to other relays which can be commented on and edited in any way possible - just not by those who care about only the "official" specs. A dev can also watch for changes on the relay and broadcast to their own relay, where conversations specific to that dev's project and nips implementations can take place. Rant over, thanks for listening.
Allow me to criticize a bit. > women on nostr want to form a group to chat without men? Yes please! Users dedicated to using your client that speak in ways cohesive to you? By all means! Specialized group wanting an interoperable community with other communities? Of course. > > Have white list relays to connect to pull in from select relays for your feed and not broadcast your notes to all relays at once. If that's the goal, Why not spin up an mastodon / pleroma / web forum instance instead? Nostr goal is different from what you've mentioned above. It tries to receive information as much as possible & most of the time is not for forming a single group or similar.
If you avoid the platform that i suggested & prefer to be on nostr, Spin up an relay, Suggest every single womans to ONLY CONNECT TO THAT SINGLE relay. Hooray. Centralized network. There you go.
But still i won't get why you don't spin up these platforms that i suggest instead. These are suited well for your purpose.
The additional benifit is that your identity and followers don't need to be tethered to a single server like centralized social media or the fediverse. It is a gradient of optionality.
The point is that nostr can encompass any level of openness you care for. it doesn't need to be wide open all the time. From that, centralized social media's or the fediverse's functionality is a subset of what nostr can do - with even simpler implementation. We already have private and paid relays, but they are just thrown into the soup without any differentiation.
The problem is that everything is wide open (for real, on protocol's end) in nostr. You couldn't really adjust that. Still, Don't fediverse could do the same exact thing? Being half open or similar? Because other users from external server still could give a follow.
As you know, I'm not the most savvy about all this but I kind of feel like there's some putting of the proverbial cart before the horse... build your cart, let the horse grow strong. There's lots to do & only so many to do it. I haven't seen a single project or attempt to solve a problem that doesn't have a legitimate usecase.
Yeah, I'm just seeing these complex structures being built for the most complex (but popular case). I don't think I'm asking for anything vastly new than whatever exists, but find it rediculous that devs are stuck on corralling the most complex situation to something that i see as already baked in. Relays and clients are seen as separate things and so anyone that wants to create their own community needs to first use a single relay, create a new account and then white list it at the relay level. I really think the process can be easier. Sure we as a group are working on it, but it shouldn't be just us.
nostr:nprofile1qqs2js6wu9j76qdjs6lvlsnhrmchqhf4xlg9rvu89zyf3nqq6hygt0spzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuvrcvd5xzapwvdhk6qgdwaehxw309aukzcn49ekk2qghwaehxw309aex2mrp0yh8x6tpd4ehgu3wvdhk6ya985f & nostr:nprofile1qqsza748zkamgmw4he4hm2xhwqpxd5gkwju38wqh3twmtshx8kv8xvgpzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzv9hxgtcpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7qgwwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkctcktxuf5 feel you both have a bit to add to the conversation would love both your thoughts
Nostr offers the ability to publish in multiple communities (think publication houses) at once. That is the game changer for me and means you do not have the false choice anymore between blasting your content out to the universe or publishing in a surgical community where the admin can rug you. With nip-29 you can publish in any niche community that: 1. Overlaps with your contents topic/goal 2. You're willing to pay the price for 3. You're following the guidelines/rules of Creating a high signal online world with organic discovery (and reporting) built in: nostr:naddr1qqfyyet9wdqhye2rv9cxjarpd35hxarnqgs2js6wu9j76qdjs6lvlsnhrmchqhf4xlg9rvu89zyf3nqq6hygt0srqsqqqa287ywmff
I see nip29 and if that's what it takes - i'm for it. however, looking at the levels of complexity (read heterogeneity in users/relays) i see a very simple solution requiring ittle modification because its already baked in: nostr:nevent1qqszggrwxt62rtc2xd5lywhlcvj0fah7mune9l6um62jjzds77y989qpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qgsdcnxssmxheed3sv4d7n7azggj3xyq6tr799dukrngfsq6emnhcpsrqsqqqqqpce02ea and nostr:nevent1qqstq5j2qhem2hjfmjgdfjlcr3rsjeu8ruuhd253th80h7npznlqlpgpr3mhxue69uhhg6r9vd5hgctyv4kzumn0wd68yvfwvdhk6tczyrwye5yxe47wtvvr9t05lhgjzy5f3qxjcl3ft09su6zvqxkwua7qvqcyqqqqqqgpud8qd
Look up small-world networks and what "Rich clubs" are. tell me that nostr doesn't have this property on relays. It already exists. I'm advocating we exploit this feature for more segregated communities. NOT EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE SUPER CONNECTED because IT ALREADY IS LIKE THAT. One of the most natural network structures that come up. Small hubs with small connections, rich clubs with massive connections. It comes up because due to natural constraints on resources. On nostr, our attention is a limited resource and exploiting this structure helps us move toward the signal activity that means most to us. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich-club_coefficient https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-world_network nostr:nevent1qqs0dnc3z0a69gmeg3r58ktna0ys78jpyxan7p2hrjkzgmwec8ylk9cpzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgtczyrwye5yxe47wtvvr9t05lhgjzy5f3qxjcl3ft09su6zvqxkwua7qvqcyqqqqqqgpetnwe
I didn't catch up on the whole discussion, but the way I see it, they're (just) project groups
My gripe is that devs are trying to work with the most complex situation for groups, both public and private - which is known to be a mess. I'm arguing that we get more or less the same functionality with a simpler implementation because it is already baked into the functionality of nostr itself. The problem I'm seeing is that the UX is not there, but the most basic functionality is how Amethyst has different feeds for hashtags and lists. A 'community' can be one relay or multiple, but the only criteria is that they have similar values, either in topic or in moderation. "Scale of complexity" just means how mixed everything is. For example your global is the highest complexity. Your follower count is just a smaller global because your feed is just who you follow, but anyone can comment. The same property applies if you are just one user posting to 5 relays about beekeeping because thats the community you want to cultivate. The 50 relay global can't cultivate a beekeeping community because anyone can jump in the conversation. Right @7fqx? (please add a name or 7fqx, I want to tag you 🥹) nostr:nevent1qqszggrwxt62rtc2xd5lywhlcvj0fah7mune9l6um62jjzds77y989qpr9mhxue69uhkymm4de3k2u3wdehhxarjv4jjumt99uq3vamnwvaz7tm9v3jkutnwdaehgu3wd3skuep0qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9ungxxum
so like Git Citadel goes into nip29 and a thematic community doesn't need it, it uses group/communities/list/tags/subject and chooses 2 or three relays to write to. The problem with the lists is that you read everything about those profiles, in the chat there is moderation but they can come from anywhere, then the chat is not available in many apps
I was wondering if people could tag me lol. I could go back to having a name. I do like being an npub tho lol 🤔
Relay feeds you say? Like this that I'm trying to advocate for? Apologies for the wall of text - been strongly advocating for it the past few days. nostr:nevent1qqs0dnc3z0a69gmeg3r58ktna0ys78jpyxan7p2hrjkzgmwec8ylk9cpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qgsdcnxssmxheed3sv4d7n7azggj3xyq6tr799dukrngfsq6emnhcpsrqsqqqqqpyhwwp8
I don't know if I get what you're saying because it's too many words, but essentially I agree. NIP-29 is different, it's for more closed groups, they deserve a separate client even, very different from the "public square" microblogging use case of Nostr. Relay feeds and dedicated or niche relays, on the other hand, would fit well in the normal microblogging use case.
The use case i imagine, open to watch but permissioned to write communities. Facilitated by relay feeds. group A, group B, write to their own set of white listed relays independent of each other. Conversational and communtity "security". Group C pulls in events from both group A and B, comments on their content and extends the work done, but only on their relays while A and B can do whatever they want without being intruded on or having their signal muddied by thousands of forks, edits and comments they don't care about.
I'm uncaffeinated right now, so apologies if these are stupid questions but Why would one need a new keypair to start a community? What is too complicated about that process?
It's more about the situation where you want to have your own echo chamber and move across clients. You're not doing that with your normal account right now becaus you have your relay set which will follow you around any client. Basically wide open all the time. If you want your echo chamber you'd need a new account to log in to so that way you get a smaller feed because that account is only connnected to one relay. Sure, /theoretically/ you can do that with a normal account to post your kind1 notes but you'd have to manually set your relays each time you want to change the scope which is a user nightmare. Computationally this should be a simple task though, which I relate as very similar to how Amethyst's can change feeds with lists or hashtags. If that is the most basic functionality that is already covers massive ground.
Its a few steps but I think user nightmare is a bit strong of terminology for it.😅 It could be simplified for reading, but writing is super easy. And where does hopping clients come into this? Each should have various purposes... is there anything that prevents a client from being developed that respects your relay list but only actually reads from specified choices? Or accepts only certain event types, sort of like Fountain is working towards? Do you think a lack of support comes from that this concept isn't conducive to strengthening censorship-resistence more broadly, given the current state of relays & connection? Because, really I should be able to write this reply to my own relay & no other, but if I did you likely wouldn't see it, as things stand. (I mean, you *might* but really you should no matter what) Again... I'm just thinking it's too early yet. But maybe I'm missing something?