oh we got that! 🤪 

 everything on nostr is already perfect to me personally, there’s apps for everything! there’s nothing that is needed to be made. 

I personally think since it’s such a small group of folks who actively use it, people against the grain of the majority of nostriches, will feel shunned and not welcomed. 

Until nostr is bigger, meaning a way larger amount of active DIVERSE users, where it’s easier for folks to join and interact without being afraid to be themselves. 

I’m not sure if this makes sense, I hope you’re able to kinda understand what i mean 😅 

 also @rabble has been saying some great stuff on this, he says it despite folks hating him for it, but he’s completely right about most things. 

 Eh. I can't stand what he's doing or how he's doing it. I've blocked him and am glad I don't have to listen to his posts, even if he is occasionally articulating something that I would agree with. 🤷‍♂️ 

 I'm 100% for creating tools for community segregation. What does this mean? You have a set list of relays and you share this space with anyone that has an overlap in relay lists. 

To start, if you think of every relay as your community, and the relay operators as your sanitation dept you communicate with them to keep your community clean tell them to clear out known bad actors and mute the ones they don't take off. From there, everyone will find communities aligned with their values and stay away from the others. Maybe a community doesn't have to revolve around a relay, even better! 

The whole point being, @rabble can moderate the community in the way they want to cultivate, and you can belong to the relays/communities you care about and not need to worry about encountering each other or dealing with moderation practices you don't care about. 

 Well, that's something I hope happens sooner rather than later and that is easier to implement than most nostr stuff...  

 Its a UX thing. Nost will be completely unrecognizable in the future if I'm recognizing thing correctly 🧐 

 I also think that will be the case.  

 Same — the do-gooder, “keep us safe” ethos is poison.  

 I tend to agree with that, especially with how Rabble wants to go about things. But, hey, I'm just an idiot who is occasionally useful, not a dev. 😅 

 Is that true, or is that your personal opinion? 

 you tell me -- do you want do-gooders monitoring people for “wrongspeech” online?

There’s always an important reason to censor — for “public health” or “national security” or “to keep you safe.” 

It’s why people are here — to avoid centralized software that polices speech for “the greater good.”  

 You can’t say why everyone is here. Not everyone is here for the same reason as you Chris. You sound like a delusional narcissist 

 LOL, we’re definitely not the same. I don’t insult people with whom I’m having a discussion for no reason!  

 where did i insult you? <3 

 the beauty here is the same data can be used in infinitely different ways supporting different ideologies/beliefs or as neutral as you want (i.e., “show me everything”)

It would only be a problem if they controlled nostr which obviously they don’t 

 I agree they will almost certainly fail. But I think part of the reason they will fail is the centralized “keep people safe” ethos won’t fly here, in part because people like me will make sure to emphasize how pernicious and wrongheaded it is.  

 Yes to being not easy to jump in. 

But, no to "there's an app for everything." 

Most nostr clients are trash. Most relays still aren't fully interoperable. There are very serious structural issues that need to be addressed without a few influential nostr devs trashing other devs work and proudly proclaiming "Look at what I can do!" while the rest of nostr gets more fractured. 🙄 

 Personally, a huge majority of folks i know have apple devices, damus is great for me and is the easiest and smoothest client. I know a lot of clients have issues, but damus to me is the perfect social media app. I have more technical issues with twitter than damus, it may not be as pretty, but it will be the one a majority of my friends and fellow youth will use in the future. 

props to the damus team 

 Sure. But, you don't have a full set of nostr capabilities. On the other hand, limiting implementation does allow for fixing issues in a more controlled manner. I wouldn't know since I wouldn't be caught dead with an apple device. Heh.  

 I’m a huge fan of Damus (and typing into the Damus MacOS app as we chat here), but I think it’s just one of many things nostr could be.

I believe new experiences and content will change who is attracted to participate here. 

 Community development. 

Unless you are speaking specificially about changes to nostr itself as a protocol, you don't need to worry or fight against censorship because it it built in. Reddit is a great community model, i think that nostr can have shades of gray when it comes to community participation which is more fine grained from what Reddit allows.

 Walls help bring evolution because communities develop in safety and isolation from external influences - you don't need to look further than your backpyard to understand how niches enable specialization and flourishing.

Being on nostr, all this is opt in. Is a community/relay to strict/lenient for your liking? Go somewhere else. We don't need to be completely mixed in, and socially that's actually a way to really stirr up internal conflict - throw in individuals completely unaligned with the core ideals of a communtity to co-opt and break it apart from the inside.


nostr:nevent1qqsqgkmzd242kwhffzw9r344apelvf80n4eqrguuafrv3883s355gsqpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmqzyrwye5yxe47wtvvr9t05lhgjzy5f3qxjcl3ft09su6zvqxkwua7qvqcyqqqqqqgksz2x8 

 I see what you’re saying and agree with it mostly. but, nostr will die if everyone is always saying “if you don’t like it, leave” which is already what i see people say everyday to users. 

 I'm not trying to frame it in a "if you don't like it leave". Its more about making you find your home easier. Then when you find your home, not worry about it being invaded my bad actors 

 yes! i agree 

 I don’t think the answer is “leave”, but will eventually be “join a different app/relay/filtering mechanism/community that is to your liking” 

 people need to feel like they are missing out on an experience, that they need to join or be left behind. think when fb first came out and ur friends were signing up with their . edu email accounts to write on each others walls, or like for me when twitch came out and i had friends that were enjoying watching streamers and i didnt know what they were talking about, so i joined in on a fun live stream for the first time. 

i dont think nostr really has that experience yet where it becomes kinda like a blackhole. so far its just emulated existing things like twitter, pinterest, blogs, live streaming. and i have no idea what that will be, whether its something totally new or a unique interoperable combination of things( id wager on the latter). 

 I suspect there are two possible forms of breakout growth for nostr:

1) some totally new experience that can’t be done with existing platforms (e.g. zaps).

2) appreciation of the neutrality causes some other at/sub-scale networks to opt for nostr as a way to avoid dealing with content moderation/“free-speech” goals directly

I think censorship resistance and interoperability are correct, but too theoretical for most users to care about directly. 

 #2 seems most clear path for now, not knowing what innovation will spark the first path.  So for #2 what are the next likely topics/communities that sit outside the mainstream, or threaten institutional orthodoxy, such that they would benefit from a move to nostr?  How might existing clients change or what would new clients look like if they optimized for this more focused community model? Today’s clients are emulating mainstream media social networks…. 

 I don’t know a ton about Mastodon, but my understanding is that it’s been around long enough to have some substantial if still somewhat fringe communities actively using. Are the integrations/bridges effective/used/useful? Are there other cultural barriers between Mastodon/Nostr preventing more cross-usage.

Is content moderation ever a problem for Mastodon instances or do they mostly remain small enough they just rule with an iron fist and don’t have much government coercion?

cc @Alex Gleason 🐍 who may have some insight that would help here 

 ya agreed, option 2 for adoption is via friction from existing services but option 1 could be any moment regardless of friction. and ofc some combo of both, ideally in a fortunate timing sequence, is possible too 

 this exactly