Oddbean new post about login | logout This will likely be the last year of damus. Will try my best to make this thing sustainable, but nostr clients don’t make money and I once funding runs dry its over as I can only burn saving for so long. Glad I was able to help play a small part in this regardless of what happens. Going to give it my all next year to try to keep the dream alive. Thanks for coming along for the ride ✌️
Wow, hate to hear this. I thought there was further financial support coming from @jack no? Hope you can keep building!
Not that I’m aware of, I was told I am no longer eligible for more opensats grants as they don’t want to be “kingmakers”.
Still gonna try subscriptions?
Oh please… 🙄 I hope OpenSats changes their mind. I support #Nostr LTS grants for vital projects like Damus. I wish @OpenSats would focus on funding relay infrastructure and a few solid clients, rather than throwing funds at like 10,000 clients. What’s the point of reinventing the wheel 10,000 times? These clients are open-source — there’s a reason Snort and Iris merged, because a lot of the work is redundant. We need a few open-source gems, not more sloppy clients. Quality over quantity.
I highly doubt OpenSats would not renew damus
But members of their board are vc funding competing clients? Why would they?
You'd have to ask them
VC funded clients like @miljan are absolutely necessary, and are the proven, track record option to find an avenue to healthy, sustainable business. Miljan and team are making huge strides across all platformd. This is required for a healthy nostr ecosystem that eventually hopes to beat Wef-chat/twtr at nostr’s game. The potential of @OpenSats to fund *exploration* of a non-VC path of a thus far well received client in Damus cannot be understated. I am grateful for funding for Damus thus far, and genuinely want to understand - why stop funding an extremely lean, extremely productive project now?
I offered to fund it and work together. He ignored it.
Maybe he deliberately wants to can it! Since the zaps went away, the project is on downswing. He is probably wanting to work on something else.
I want to build a business built in bitcoin. I can’t do that by building an app exclusively on apples platform, which is why i’m building a multiplatform client where I can do whatever I want. So no I do not want to work on something else, I’m just fighting to keep it alive and it’s very stressful because Ive had to start over from scratch and am playing catch-up against well funded companies.
So would the Damus app go away or would it be incorporated into the bigger project? I feel bringing zaps back will revive Damus and the monetisation issue. Not sure if Cake can help here. But it will be a third party similar to WOS and might be able to help with App Store compliance. Cake is a well used app with its own user base. It supports btc and xmr. Just a few random thoughts.
> I feel bringing zaps back will revive Damus and the monetisation issue. This is why im building an android app…
That’s just trading one centrally controlled App Store for another. I put up a 0.1 BTC bounty to get lightning polls implemented on nostr and since March it’s only in Amethyst. Sure another OS opens up your TAM but why not look at user-funded upgrades for things Damus Users want?
This article might be very relevant here @jb55 . Would be even more relevant if you see who authored it. Esp around the ‘btc only’ view. https://www.overcomingbias.com/p/quiz_fox_or_hedhtml 🦊 OR 🦔
#makeitquote
Is there an option to subscribe? Would be great to have the option to subscribe. I’d subscribe.
@danieldaquino has been working on it, hopefully will release it in January
That’s good to hear
Awesome. This client has changed my life for real. Helped me connect with the world and make music, an album, climb Kilimanjaro with #zaps and set up a bitcoin hub in #Tanzania! Is there is a WILL, there is a way… Pun intended. Thank you 🙏🏾
This seems like an easy solution. You have the tech right here to do patreon without and fees
Make “Damus supporter” check marks without any of the verification, censoring, and BS. Many people would support out of good will, and with a way to signal support to others we could make it shameful to not support it. Kind of like tipping in America - it’s not illegal to leave no tip, but the social protocol in place makes it so most people do it anyway.
This is a great idea
We have this in the works!
❤️ https://image.nostr.build/b1cdacaa4656c1649404d045166c3c041d8263965c3b73fcdbe4a4dfb9a7c97d.jpg
Friends don’t lie, Will. 🕷️
Gamify it by having multiple tiers (3?), like 1/5/20 bucks a month or so.
What about , like Damus loot crates, premium skins and shit . Just basically Fortnite-ify it , get all the kids hooked on it : "Mommm can I get some Bitcoin to buy the new Damus skibiddy toilet skin ? " . I'm only half joking man , there is money to be made in that shit .
We are all behind you Will , like not literally behind you , that would be wierd , but like emotionally .
How much does it cost per year? @jb55
My mortgage, special levies, travelling to promote nostr, lawyers, paying an employee, its easily reaching 20-30k per month. Its way more expensive running this than anything Ive ever worked on before, and I’m getting paid 2x less
DAMUS AMBASSADORS. Have us in different regions.
20-30k per month seems like a lot to me. 1. What percentage do your lawyers cost? Why do you need them? 2. What portion does the client cost? What your relay? If your relay costs a lot, then I’m worried for nostr. If the Damus client costs much, I’m not so worried.
💜🫂 Has Damus met its final form? Will other devs let it die and finally stop supporting apple? Will devs embrace and finally purple pill the world? Stay tuned to find out. 😭🫡
Will, take my money. Set up a subscription option. Are you open to VC?
jack said I shouldn’t do VC but i don’t see a reality where I don’t and still remain competitive
Is jack afraid of VC being a single point obstacle? Is there any other reason? I'm sure there will be big companies in Nostr in the future, so why not try venture capital
VCs = quick returns, control by investors is limiting founders autonomy that can impact the long term vision. Also you giveaway huge % cut of your startup to the investors and you get almost nothing
Yes, capital has to be paid back. If in the early rounds of financing, the client can find a sustainable development model. You don't have to give up control to the VC. VC just allows the client to have more funds and time to support the client to find a profit model. If no client is found and fails, the VC loses money, but can contribute to Nostr's infrastructure. At least developers won't give up building Nostr for the sake of survival. Today, jack's donations also come from jack's profits in VC and capital markets. Before the business model of joint-stock enterprises is completely changed, we need to develop Nostr through the traditional capital market, after all, every developer needs to survive.
Splits and yours. Friends don’t lie. 🕷️
Flagged to kill running and get dirty. 🦇 https://image.nostr.build/7f4c65c1f58064f9d0d84993ba8810d3c1782c73db2ff7101bd688aac3d51187.jpg
I agree with Jack … all money seeking an exit is weak money and will lead you not where YOU want to go. Is there another “product” you could incorporate into Damus? For example, I have a VERY basic podcast out there and - holy hell - the process to get everything started, hosted, loaded, etc. is a huge pain in the butt and is spread across several different platforms. I pay monthly for that service and I hate it… can you bring live stream, hosting, etc. to Damus somehow? I would be more inclined to podcast more and try harder if it wasn’t so dang confusing.
I don’t think that you need money from VC. You already have the tech and it’s working. I’m typing this using Damus. The issue is the business model. You can spend next year trying different business models to see which one scales. I’m happy to help brainstorm business model options and how to test them if you’re interested.
I thought social interaction = money like instagrams says
Zap splits was working, i just need an android client so i can continue doing that
I'll enable Zap splits on Damus Android 🥹
We need to book splits. Random killing sprees are sick.
unfortunate news from Will and damus. you are so appreciated for all you've done. we wouldn't be here like this if not for Will. it doesn't look good for ios users though. let's hope Will doesn't pull the plug on damus next year, but it's never good to hear a dev talk like this only one+ year into development. lfg 🚀 #nostr nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3kspp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzyqewrqnkx4zsaweutf739s0cu7et29zrntqs5elw70vlm8zudr3y2qcyqqqqqqg6dvgrq
Zuck called 📞 He said we can post from threads 🤣🤣 #centralised #never
Hands down best Nostr iOS app I use. 🍷 dude.
When it's all said and done, you'll go down as a legend in the Nostr movement... Thank you, Will
100% !
building stuff is awesome, especially when people use it. trying to build a company on oss is… something different entirely. mad respect for what you’ve accomplished so far and continue to accomplish. I would personally be happy to commit to a recurring payment for damus, but I appreciate there are complexities here and it’s probably a massive chore to get in place. either way, thanks again for everything. you’re an inspiration in a technical sense as well as your ability to execute.
Damn 😞 How about subscription model? I heard @vrod was talking on the plebchain radio. Give it a try. In any way, thank you for everything what you have done ! 🫂
Monthly sustaining donation amount?
Doing it!
I remember one of the audience members at Nostrica exclaiming "come on, charge a subscription, we'll pay it", demonstrating the appreciation for the product. Sometimes, we get too close to see. Your client matters to a lot of people and the best way to show support is subs, not VCs. imo
Found it... https://www.youtube.com/live/B6YQQC5Q_5g?si=p5M9wP4BiQY0IHit&t=24313 Lots more satisfied users since then 😊
You should have brought Damus to Android platform as well. But that's not the issue right now. I think to sustain Damus there should be subscription feature for some important features but I seriously doubt if this will work out immensely owing to the nature of how things work on #nostr, being a decentralized social.
How much do you need to raise per user to make it sustainable? Give us the math and we can see if the community can raise it
👍
Nope 😉
Not gonna happen, and @jb55 🫶 can’t give what’s yours, like that math. Y’all keep boiling ghat ocean, and see how that hoes. https://image.nostr.build/de3e7b72e6f1592c7725eac27634963de04e509f52ab889bc46f3fcc91c5cca0.jpg
Damus users have to put their money where their mouths are. You don't have to wait for subscriptions to zap this man $10 once a month. Or $5. Or $1. Zap what you can but make it meaningful. 21 sat zaps won't pay his bills nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3kspz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qxtscya34g58tk0z605fvr788k263gsu6cy9x0mhnm87echrgufzsxpqqqqqqzlway7x
Hopefully there is a way to keep the client going somehow Thanks for your work to keep Damus going 🫂🍻👍
Will. I love you, man. We're not done fighting yet. Paid subscriptions will help.
Oh? 😉 Wr need to know what hateful and dirty does. Not sure whether it’s worth the price of life to be going in. https://image.nostr.build/bb69386eeb5473626f0c678984583670fc921b0a244980a51f3dc6153a235982.jpg
https://c.tenor.com/eGVQvJ4H3m4AAAAd/tenor.gif nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3kspz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qxtscya34g58tk0z605fvr788k263gsu6cy9x0mhnm87echrgufzsxpqqqqqqzlway7x
Feel bad zapping people 1m sats now ey
Marketplace with some PPC enhanced algo there? It's probably little down the road, but assuming you got a solid chance to become #1 sales channel for many of the emerging SMB vendors on NOSTR, they might be more than happy to purchase more visibility. v4v. If the space is valuable, and limited, you have to decide somehow which items to show there. Little PPC auction model goes long way in signaling high quality vendors.
'Titan' by Ron Chernow suggests that Rockefeller and the other magnates of the early 1900s ran into similar dynamics when it came to the emerging industrial age. Everything was deflationary ... entrepreneurs were often chasing profits all the way to forcing negative margin projects due to radical oversupply of raw materials. They argued for a monopoly -- in part -- because it kept profits high and forecastable. I see similar dynamics emerging in the open source software / AI side of things. As Jeff Booth says, products eventually are priced at their marginal cost of production. And software doesn't have a high marginal cost to produce. And if there are multiple clients out there, there is effectively no moat to protect value ... very similar to a parallel railroad track laid by a competitor. I am not sure what the model is that can fix this (or maybe it will never be fixed.) Until the market is WILLING to pay for a differentiated product/client that adds material value to their lives, then this is the natural progression of creative destruction of free markets. Obviously not rooting for that outcome, @jb55 ... I think you need to focus on what people NEED and a twitter-esque client isn't doing it for me ... at least not relative to the other clients that are out there doing something very similar.
I think that monetizing some functions is not the problem. I think the problem is the little growth of users that exists to maintain a project as impressive as Damus. Perhaps this 2024 should focus on making Nostr more visible, it is too good but little known.
All that and a bath. I think a #mainvolume issued license is required to think. I think I am European, Swedish in fact. I think I am created by Sina for #mainvolume https://apps.apple.com/de/app/sys/id1439243037?l=en-GB
Why not just lean into the PBS / NPR style model. Quarterly drives, make it transparent, structured, predictable,which will be really easy with tracking and lightning...maybe give away unique badges, features if you donate a certain amount. Give away swag at a certain amt. Its worked for them, why not ? 🤙 nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3ksppamhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5pzqvhpsfmr23gwhv795lgjc8uw0v44z3pe4sg2vlh08k0an3wx3cj9qvzqqqqqqygdcll0
Ad revenue.
I know there are 10,000 damus users which can send $1 worth of sats per month. I send $2 per month. This is all you have to do as a user to keep these projects going.
Our merch store only got a few sales, we lost a bunch of money on that. it is not giving me much hope for subscribers, but I will try regardless.
Make a wos copy
Actually low key want but I also don’t want to go to jail
Just dont make it non custodial. The proper way
There is a bunch of non custodial lightning wallets already out there. I especially like Phoenix from ACINQ for beginners, because it very much abstracts the complexities away.
Just realized I read that wrong and completely missed the double negation. So please ignore my previous comment.
Honestly much respect either way. You’ve already created and implemented an innovation unlike any before in social media; such a win. You’ve gained community and a big bro 🇮🇹 in jack for life, and people will always engage you as you for your insight. Totally okay to give it your all and see where you land in a year.
No way! a product that has come this far and has so many believers can rarely die. However , challenges are real and you have our full support. IMHO there can be a subscription model for pro users. Paid nip05 subscriptions and pro members get faster speeds over premium relays. We are there with you @jb55
Why can't FOSS handle this issue?
nostr:note1l2s7wyqg5xz7ke6t20p03t9awk629utr6wxjjmg7k4cqr0eflrdql5p5ke We still have a long way to go to figure out how to monetize #nostrclient and #relay projects to make it feasible in the long run. Wishing best luck to @jb55 with it. And the rest of you beautiful birds, how much would you pay to use Damus ?
How much funding have you received so far ?
150,000 from opensats which I split with @danieldaquino , so that comes to 75,000 a year, or about a 2.6x pay decrease, my expenses are up 2-2.5x to run servers and flying around doing nostr promotion at conferences which I won’t be able to do this year. Squeezing by… 😅
How many users do you think would convert to a $5 monthly subscription model from the current users base?
10,000 active users, maybe optimistically 50% damus users. If 1% of users buy a subscription at 6.99 a month, thats $350 a month?
Yeah, I see your point. Numbers are numbers. But isn’t this unfortunately also true for zap splits?
Zap splits scales with economic activity, so then I would be incentivized to increase commerce on nostr, which would create a feedback cycle. Thats the only thing I can think of that would scale well.
💯 it's the only way to monetize and compete with ad revenue giants. Appl really kneecapped you on that one 😭 nostrdb/damus android/nostr phone, let's goo. Don't spend your savings too much my friend. Cut your expenses, pivot, force push 💪 a year is a really decent runway, but without zaps and splits it's a quicksand pit.
Don't listen to these folks asking you to ask for money from jack and the others. Your product can stand on it's own, there's no need to beg and there's no need to be beholden to anyone. If Damus is truly that important to it's user base then they should support it! If Damus brings value then it should receive value in return. If it doesn't bring value and, you fail to elicit value from your users then it's doomed to fail. https://value4value.info/ Please study that site carefully. Your users should pony up, if they have any sense of decency. "Don't be a douchbag" (No Agenda listeners will get what I mean by that.) Apple did you no favors by limiting you, but I'm sure that you made many mistakes as well along your path. I hope and pray that Damus thrives, even though I am not and never will be an Apple product user. I'm sure that this message will get buried among the massive amounts o f replies to your post, and you'll likely not see it 🙁, but I believe that v4v is the only way for Damus to succeed. Shameless plug https://lightningthrashes.com Sorry, couldn't resist 🙂 #v4v #value4value
Clients will come and go but if they don't solve the issue of regular income, many will end up being a memory with abandoned code on GitHub. Relying on grants and Bitcoin price appreciation to increase your runway can only take you so far, and with the user base still so small how many can be monetised through subscriptions or through ads that can make it worthwhile? This is going to be a tough problem to solve, considering clients fragment the user base, it makes it even harder than if you were just trying to compete with traditional social media for users nostr:note1l2s7wyqg5xz7ke6t20p03t9awk629utr6wxjjmg7k4cqr0eflrdql5p5ke
ごめん、Damusは今年でもう終わりです。 持続可能なクライアントにするために努力したけど儲からないし、資金が枯渇したら終わります。未来は分からないけど、少しでも役に立てたならうれしいな。来年も全力で夢を追い続けるよ。付き合ってくれてありがとう✌️ nostr:note1l2s7wyqg5xz7ke6t20p03t9awk629utr6wxjjmg7k4cqr0eflrdql5p5ke
Remembering the day I joined Damus :) It was the 16th December 2022, and I was enjoying a coffee on Collin St. in Melbourne CBD. I had never heard of public or private keys, decentralised protocols and really knew absolutely nothing about bitcoin. My first post was a sunrise 🌅 emoji and what followed that, was amazing interactions with the most incredible & knowledgeable people. Had the awesome opportunity to work on The Nostr Report as a reporter, was the CEO of correcting @ tags and helped to curate Dogs of Nostr. The thing that stood out the most for me during that time was Will’s passion, knowledge and heart. His energy and enthusiasm is contagious. I was even planning to go to Costa Rica for nostrica, but uni schedule got in the way(still wear my t-shirt though). haven’t been on Damus as much as I wanted in the last seven months, as my mum had a serious injury and my focus was on helping her recover. I even considered going to nostrasia, at one point, but had a commitment in Los Angeles that I had to keep. Hoping that Will succeeds in keeping the dream alive 🤙 Nostr opened my eyes to the importance of decentralisation.
Here's a potential solution, albeit unpopular: You'll need to pay a 10 Sat fee for notes, while a single edit comes at 100 Sats. This not only cuts down on spam but also encourages more deliberate messages. The earnings would be divided equally: 50% for Damus development and 50% for personal stacking goals.
I had a similar idea. Here's some bullet points I jotted down a while back: The value 4 value client 1. Every event/action should cost something, minimum of 1 sat. 2. Costs to post, like, boost, quote, reply, add relays 3. Could charge sats to See More on a note (first part would be like a sample or preview). 4. You receives stats every time your post is boosted or liked. 5. Zaps are split with the person who made the post, the developers, the client you're using, and relay operators.
And @fiatjaf should probably get a kickback on every transaction, too 😄
Your post is causing quite a stir. Added to the https://nostraco.in/hot feed
Is there some way we can help? Can we pay for the app or something like that? Sorry if my ideas are silly…
I will add an option but with user numbers its not looking promising. This is why i spent so much of this year doing outreach at different conferences. Not sure if it had an impact or not. @vrod has some great marketing ideas so looking forward to seeing what we can do next year with that.
How much u need?
Why not start running ads? You control both the relay and client. Users doesn't loose anything, you can break end atleast with some money coming from there.
Love you Will!
A contradiction to being a whore, and that’s the street term for ‘sex worker’, no, mom? How does that work? 😉 https://image.nostr.build/8cd50a067dc205e58834c8d83d66c65fa08ce89632e6d2822b048a5526f91927.jpg
The paradox of loving and cancerous is like quantum nonsense, simply embarrassing. 😉
Que sucede aquí por qué tanto alboroto 😪 nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3kspr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmqzyqewrqnkx4zsaweutf739s0cu7et29zrntqs5elw70vlm8zudr3y2qcyqqqqqqgelaghr
🤷🏾♂️🤷🏾♂️🤷🏾♂️ nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3kspp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzyqewrqnkx4zsaweutf739s0cu7et29zrntqs5elw70vlm8zudr3y2qcyqqqqqqg6dvgrq
Why not take a split from each #zap conducted using damus?
Thanks for your efforts ! May be you could post an on-chain address in your bio & website to receive bigger donations ? Rich people are time poor & would rather send one big one payment than remember to multi zap.
Hello, I just got here & wanted to tell you that sometimes dreams change. Respectfully, ask that you hear me out. I primarily lived offline. In late 2022 there was a local tragedy. A young man went into a mall & started shooting. Killed some before another young man shot & killed him. Sadly, all of the local news stations hailed the one who killed the other a “hero.” Why does this matter? You’re smarter than me with online dynamics. The “shooter”was influenced & brainwashed online. Joined Twitter & spoke about narrative warfare & brainwashing then. Probably too bluntly. Maybe if I had used a man’s pic it would have been more acceptable. Genuinely said. Either way, I saw all the NW & our nation continuing to split apart. We are in a great divide & whatever “small part” any of us can do to bring forth a better world… THANK YOU 💜 As far as keeping your dream alive … I’ll do all I can too. Because IF I’m right then the goal is to make the world more equitable & fair. I’ll always stand for humanity. 💜 Please know, I realize my ignorance online but I’m genuinely a loving person who knows the goodness of good people united for change.
Thank you for all you've done- the app has come a long way, but I've had some issues with wallet integration so checking out Primal
Either way thank you. And I'm sure you'll be highly successful in whatever you choose to do next.
*ahem* Bluesky *cough*
It would be so much fun if we had nostr devs working behind frenemy lines
Who is to say we don't . I mean , they are doing a really shit job if you and me know about it .
I'm gonna get a job at Aldi and make sure all my fellow nightshift shelf stackers use a nostr community to swap shifts and bitch about the line manager.
I'm going to get a job in Lidl , and get them all into Bluesky , but bitch about them all on the Aldi nostr community .
Have you spoken to @Jeff Booth and @LynAlden from Ego Death Capital?
One thought I had to fund apps was to take a small portion of total value zapped through it. Basically zap splits. Each time a zap is sent take X% for the dev team to pay its bills including salary. Haven't implemented but just a thought. Prism API may help with speed of transactions if alot. Sure Will has thought of this before. Why not feasible? Not enough value being moved via zaps to make it work?
@elsat @vrod Happy to pay a subscription. I used to pay 17 bucks a month for shitflix until I canned it. It was crap. Damus and the protocol as a whole gives me way more value than shitflix ever did. Do the math and put the number out there. What have you got to lose. I am sure you will be pleasantly surprised. You guys are gonna make it 🧡🧡💜💜🤙🫂🫂🫂
🫂 Damus will try out a subscription in the next month or two
Sign me up
Consider doing a “lifetime” membership as well. It’s a great way to get an advance lump sum from people. I tend to go for those if it is offered.
I would gladly become a “sustaining” member, especially if it comes with a tote bag.
What about a ‘note’ book? Lol I’ll see myself out
@vrod you just created work for yourself. In a good way. It’s a great suggestion 😁
Let’s publish a coffee table book with everyone’s first #Nostr note.
best of nostr meme book
@corndalorian @doc @AviBurra We have a project.
Netflix is such a waste of money man , totally agree , it is like rumaging through a bargain bin full of DVD's at a dollar store for 17 dollars a month .
I just recently purple pilled my wife and got her to set up on Damus. She likes it so far.
Also, I don't know software development so please ignore this if I'm just an idiot or someone else commented on this (I didn't read EVERY note), but I see AI cutting the cost of that industry drastically. I'm sure you leverage AI as it is, but I envision an ever-increasing leverage of AI can spread and automate the development across more bodies in less time, ultimately toward the marginal cost of production, being so low that zaps in an increasingly valuable asset could easily compensate. This may serve as an area of focus, along with the many other things people have suggested. I have been impressed with the brain power of @TheGuySwann on the off chance that you may have questions in this area. Just trying to be helpful. Keep rockin 🤘
Thanks so much sharing your thoughts on the future of #Damus. I appreciate your dedication to making this project sustainable. I completely understand the challenges you're facing, and I want to express my support for your efforts to keep Damus alive. A subscription-based model, I think it's a very good idea. I'm more than willing to subscribe and contribute to the sustainability of #Damus. I believe many others share this sentiment, and it could be a viable solution to ensure the continued success of the platform. Additionally, as you may all have noticed the success of the #Primal app, which integrates a lightning wallet to facilitate sat top-ups. I think implementing a similar feature for #Damus could be beneficial. I think the idea of receiving a reasonable share from top-up sales to contribute to the financial health of #Damus. Al the Best!
Extremely grateful you created Damus, we wouldn't be here without it. 🫂
Honestly , you wouldn't have used any of the other clients ?
Not even sure I'd be on nostr without watching the reasonTV episode with Will and NVK.
The only thing that I ever heard NVK in was Saifdean and him were talking about something or other . I actually had a Coldcard before I knew who NVK was . Sorry , NVK , your hardware precedes you , and that's nothing to be ashamed of .
@jb55 Here are a few things that come to mind that may help! Getting sustainable/consistent income: 1. Have a dialogue that pops up once after installation, that allows users to opt-in to zap-splits, so that every time someone zaps a post, Damus gets a % 2. A "Damus+"/"Damus Pro" etc paid subscription tier with extra features 3. Turn amazon/walmart/etc links in posts into referral links, and have that be opt-in of course.
Not for everyone and so maybe take as a general tip, but one suggestion is to move countries to take advantage of the lower cost of living and extra runway you get while building a new business. Mexico? Thailand? El Salvador? Argentina? Lots of places. Latin American destinations have sinular time zones to US and are easy to get back to USA from... In Mexico I'd recommend Mexico City, Merida (carribbean side and safest city in Mex), Oaxaca City for a smaller city feel than Mexico City and San Miguel de Allende a nice mountain town and lotsa expats.
I know how much you care about this app and how hard you have worked to make Damus a success. You've done a great job creating a platform that helps people connect and share their stories. You should be proud of what you have accomplished. I appreciate your honesty and commitment to keeping the app alive. You definitely have my support, the sats are yours! Keep up the good work! All the best for 2024! #Nostr #Damus https://image.nostr.build/febdad57e3e0a2a0900fd070aa472bfc37b68a6465ced713d0d4e2854be50502.jpg
This is one of those notes where I'll casually tag @jack because I can.
I would gladly pay a subscription fee for “Damus Pro” just to keep Damus going. Of course in lightning ⚡️
I couldn't ever give money to anything to do with Apple , so I'm really conflicted because Will is really cool , and the project is really cool , and the Nostr users that use Apple are really cool people .
Thank you 🙏 Lets take a look at the nostr ecosystem and learn about self hosted nostr relays 🫂🫂🫂 https://www.nostrapps.com If you have an app or relay instructions please share
Damusの件よ↓ nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3kspzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejsygpjuxp8vd29p6ancknaztql3eajk52y8xkppfn7au7elkw9c68zg5psgqqqqqqsnm0c3j
sadly i think that trying to build any system that has its most viable route to sustainability through enabling marketplaces and payments that was never gonna fly well with apple apple haters don't hate to be hateful they hate because of the elitism that the company practises
@jb55, have you considered setting up a crowdfunding campaign on @geyser? Certainly, It can help a bit or potentially a lot. Plebs would definitely appreciate seeing Damus’ story, vision, and roadmap in one place. It would encourage people to donate if they can see what future they are donating for. It can act as a funnel, one place where you can get feedback and requests from plebs who are interested in Damus and are willing to donate.
Thanks for everything you do and did Will! 🫡 Excited to be along for the ride.
@gladstein maybe HRF would give a grant for the next year, so jb will have a time to figure out the best subscription model that will be able to feed his family.
I believe every software developer can live on the Value4Value model. You must remember to ask, and ask regularly. https://value4value.info/pieces/the-ask/
I definitely love that part of No Agenda. It’s something to think about for sure.
This seems to work decent enough for gab. Would be even easier in damus considering it could be paid in one tap. Set a budget to kee Damus running and show it in between notes sometimes. Ppl will zap it to keep using an app they like https://image.nostr.build/d7d8e2b517db4816833b3570344b5c42b173aa3d9534e03e0160433e3f879844.jpg
I think I've heard of Gab , it's another type of social media right ?
It seems like there must be a way to fund clients. Could we opt to give a percentage of our zaps to the clients that we use? Also, thank you!!
@Kieran has been playing around with different client funding models for a long time.
Is Damus Purple / premium subscription still in the works?
Yup will be launching that soon, be we would need a lot of subscribers
You can a have a default relay that is required for more features in the client. Everyone should register by paying some sats to use that relay.
That was a great trip do! Thanks for all mate u helped many ppl.
Nostr wouldn’t be where it is without Damus. If this project were to get phased out, that would be a massive blow to Nostr. Speaking strictly from Primal’s perspective, we *need* projects like Damus to be successful. If we are to make a credible argument that Nostr is different from the legacy platforms, users need to have many good choices of clients and services. One year is a long time in Nostr terms, and I am optimistic that Will and the team will figure this out. But if/when Damus and other projects introduce paid tiers, please consider the bigger picture when deciding whether to sign up. You won’t be making a decision just for yourself. At this early stage your support might help some projects survive, as well as change the trajectory of Nostr itself. nostr:note1l2s7wyqg5xz7ke6t20p03t9awk629utr6wxjjmg7k4cqr0eflrdql5p5ke
Maybe I’m ignorant but how is it funded ? Where does Damus need money
Read the reposted thread. Damus has been funded by donations from OpenSats so far. But OS wants to support a diversity of smaller projects, rather than king making. So damus needs to stand on its own now, but has no funding model established.
I know how it’s been funded. I’m just curious what needs funding? Servers or something?
Will likes to eat and live in a house. Infrastructure isn't all that much. It's more about spending 80 hours a week working on Damus and not having another job to pay the bills.
Just adding to your comment: There are a long list of people working on Damus, of which I believe Will and Daniel are full time. That’s a lot of work to fund all by itself. And yes, Damus relay undoubtedly costs some decent $$ with the volume of posts going through it.
Hey @nobody , what's happening ? What would you say are the biggest costs associated with a project like Damus, speaking as someone that knows nothing about this sort of thing ?
The wages of the developers is usually one of the biggest costs in this business.
The only thing we don’t know, and I am not trying to be negative or make judgments. But the Damus team could be working on features users don’t care about, and not delivering on features they need. I’m not saying they are miss managing, what I am try to say this is that all of this very very new. Alignment between the dev team and what the users want is probably so ambiguous makes development very hard. This clarity only comes with identifying very super freaking clearly who your users are. Creating a user persona, and serving them first. Developing for “the people” is near damn impossible at this stage.
I appreciate your post. I think users funding development solves a great deal of this concern. Especially if a lot of the income cycles monthly. If developers aren’t serving the needs of their users, then they will see that funding dry up. I’ve also had direct interactions with the entire team a few times. I’ve attended a dev call, submitted a very badly done patch, and reported bugs a few times to the team. During that process, I’ve found each and every one of them to be open, responsive, professional, patient, and kind. I know not everyone has had the opportunity to have that experience, so I thought id share mine with you as some anecdotal evidence that this is a good team trying to steward what they’ve been given in as good a way as they can. There are very few projects or teams that I give blanket endorsements to like this (indeed, I am one of the angry, critical, kermudgeonly purple cats) but team #damus has my support. I am not terribly worried about changes in the future, because while Damus is the flagship on iOS right now, we have alternatives if things go bad (and those apps are *good*) and Damus is open source under a permissive license. If I donate money and find out later I no longer support the decisions made by the team, I can move or fork. I consider supporting app developers of FOSS apps for Nostr very low risk because I always have access to the code I helped fund. As far as running out of money, Damus, Inc is doing a lot more than they started out doing. There are two clients (at least) in devlopment, two developers being paid, travel, and tons of other code Will contributes to the whole community. I follow him on GitHub - I see the repos going up and commits happening. Again, a lot of this is based on experiences I know non-devs may not have had the opportunity to have with the team, so I thought id share. If I missed your point, or if I didn’t touch on anything, let me know. It’s late where I am. 😵💫
Really appreciate sharing your experience with the team. While I don’t know any of them personally, I can easily sense their values and ethics in all of their interactions. I now live on Damus. So I might be biased as well. I like your idea of user funded features. I even mentioned this to Will and other nostr devs before. I think it’s a great way to provide the teams with predictability and help them plan. I don’t believe it will pay the bills, but it will sure help with direction. 💜💜
I totally agree with your final assessment. I believe the road to a sovereign Damus will be paved with several streams of revenue (donors, subs, merch, purple) that could in aggregate support it. I’m reminded of streamers. That reminds me. I was going to suggest to Will he hosts some coding streams working on Damus. People like to zap dev streams. 😃
lol I mean I understand that. I wasn’t aware that this was a full time gig for him. We need to find a way to fund this.
How much can we squeeze out of the Egirls if we get some sort of slut-farm going with them , I mean , that has to put a dent in it at least?
Oh shit , I honestly never considered that Will needs sustenance , I always just viewed him as some sort of cyborg .
I'm being facetious of course . I don't use the Damus app , but it is a vital part of the Nostr ecosystem , and shit , I don't know what the solution is here , how do we fix this ? Do we crowdfund using Bitcoin ?
Crowdfunding is a band-aid fix and is not sustainable. It's probably fine for the first year or two, but not much longer than that. It needs an actual funding model in the future. Build the tech. Survive on funding/donations. When the tech is ready and able, get a million users. If 1% pay for premium subscription services then you're set.
As someone who has built a decentralized crowdfunding/donations platform, I agree with this. That method is not viable long-term and should only be used for once-off rounds of funds. @jb55 should turn Damus into freemium model and either accept the ~30% cut to Apple. Or, in some way remotely unlock premium features using a 3rd party subscription API like Stripe or buymeacoffee.com
Perhaps you could ask your very wealthy buddy? Clearly, he has money to burn cuz doing STUPID things like buying millions dollar house for a PRETTY Model old enough to be his daughter!
This is what happens when you promise a badge and don’t deliver. j/k ofc
Let’s cooperate, you can integrate with DecentralName. https://decentralname.org
I would happily pay a monthly subscription for a premium feature: logging in with multiple accounts I can switch between
You can't do this on Damus? You can do this for free on Amethyst
most clients you can do it for free, it doesn’t make sense to charge for it.
this will be true for any feature you can think of charging for unless it provides a unique experience that can’t be easily replicated
Maybe in theory but I am sitting here saying PLEASE LET ME PAY YOU FOR THIS so why not let me pay you for this?
What about a Nostr marketplace , where people can post assasination bounties , and you take a cut ? Or maybe a Craigslist if that is too extreme?
I can't use Amethyst (I'm on iOS) so I would pay for it.
Will the #Android version come out before the project ends?
thats the plan, as that will help with monetization since we could have zap splits again
Ads would suck... Zap splits would work well. I'd be happy to split my zaps at a high ratio towards Damus!
You played an enormous part. 0 to banned in China in 60 days 🤣. You write great software (and fast). You are brilliant and generous but you are terrible at incentives. You have disincentivized the birth of relay businesses by giving arguably one of the best relays away for free. This is bad. As your bank account proves, great relays aren’t free! Turn the Damus relay off IMMEDIATELY (or please stamp an industry leading premium entry fee on it). High volume relays are a huge money sink. If Damus client doesn’t work well without it, then you know what to work on: making Damus client great without subsidizing the traffic.
That's it , that's the name of the movie : "Damus : Zero to banned in China in 60 seconds . " What's the name of that nerdy actor that did the Facebook movie , we could recycle him for this .
Jesse Eisenberg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Eisenberg
Yes , that's the one ! We need to approach him with a good script : I'm thinking the part where will is getting a lap dance in Tokyo , but then he takes the blindfold off and it's a skinny little japanese man in a bra and panties, that's bound to get his attention .
Wish there was a better way to keep Damus longer, sorry this has been so hard financially
I'm not okay with the end of Damus. I think this can probably be remedied.
Btw, I will NOT pay money to use any client to use Nostr. Screw that! Good luck finding source of funding!
Then you will get ads
Ads SUCK! There’s probably a difference business model you can use to fund Damus if can’t get funding from a wealthy benefactor or source. Just need to think about it more!
Free money is a band-aid fix. It's not sustainable.
What about independent value? Money is transaction of value, and u less creating the value, a rat in the wheels. Don’t be a the rat, be the wheel.
Then whether an embarrassment or incompetence to be in a boiling economy and bitching about funding, beyond me. What’s the matter? Can’t close enough business to fund the development when boiling? Get better closers. Even better, license to create foundational value to make the closers life easier. Fucking embarrassing to see moaning about money when running a bullish boiler
Requires a license to keep tight, as thieving is embarrassing to be boiling with. Fucking amateur hour, eddie https://image.nostr.build/bb47e9195837121e3f36c5c1fd2499c783f7a78cf0c03dd88ee4add877a6c0db.png
If anything, ensuring originality or proper rights to the revolution of ideas is how not be caught stealing when boiling. Nothing wrong with bullish boiler when able to deliver as an efficient vehicle to raise money. It’s the thieving that gets bars. License to operate. https://image.nostr.build/9681257c61aedff249b9789861e62d46da4a10f03f39abf67efe9fea6c825b5a.jpg
Yes, I agree.
Meant to type different business model.
ants ? !
Everyone is different, why wouldn’t you? Does that include not doing zap splits?
Coming in HOT , love the honesty .
Thanks! Sometimes, I’m a little too blunt but can adjust depending on who I’m talking to or my mood.
When you say this year do you mean 2023 or 2024? 🤔
2024
Okay so we will still have time. You don’t see any hope with subscription model?
Interesting to hear this perspective #BTC #Zap #Nostr #Bitcoin
What's the monthly running cost estimate?
A million trillion dollars dr_evil_.gif
https://cdn.satellite.earth/af792837d7ef2586a04cf92a8ae04a6179f6df10d6b78c9fd5517c022f22b78c.gif https://cdn.satellite.earth/2b727ee4be6cf48f42839b27849512db4586ca48d472eec0fe863d0f5903fb87.mp4 nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3kspr9mhxue69uhhqatjv9mxjerp9ehx7um5wghxcctwvspzqvhpsfmr23gwhv795lgjc8uw0v44z3pe4sg2vlh08k0an3wx3cj9qvzqqqqqqyk47a9f
Please guys, lets group zap this note. We need devs like @jb55 nostr:note1l2s7wyqg5xz7ke6t20p03t9awk629utr6wxjjmg7k4cqr0eflrdql5p5ke
Pay up you freeloaders! nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3kspz4mhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejqygpjuxp8vd29p6ancknaztql3eajk52y8xkppfn7au7elkw9c68zg5psgqqqqqqsv5rx5d
#Amethyst me encantaría apoyarte cuáles son los planes 2024? No quisiera una sorpresa de que también te vayas @Vitor Pamplona nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3ksprpmhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuumwdae8gtnnda3kjctvqgsr9cvzwc652r4m83d86ykplrnm9dg5gwdvzzn8ameanlvut35wy3grqsqqqqqph7xzn9
Intentar la donación por empresas de minería sería una loca idea 💡? Lo digo por qué si los clientes Nostr triunfan las transacciones de Bitcoin escalarian y por consecuencia las empresas mineras se verían beneficiadas, #Nostr #Hispano #Venezuela #España #Argentina #ElSalvador nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3ksprpmhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuumwdae8gtnnda3kjctvqgsr9cvzwc652r4m83d86ykplrnm9dg5gwdvzzn8ameanlvut35wy3grqsqqqqqph7xzn9
Maybe a very simple (?) fix would be to impose a minimum zap of 1,000 sats, going up in 1,000 sat increments. If we’re talking about value for value, we should stop this ‘21 sats’ crap. $0.50 equivalent is “fair starting value” for an idea that provoked an idea or enhance learning or created an emotion you were not expecting.
Sorry “a very simple fix (for differentiation)”, a differentiation for users to create a preference for high quality content creators and consumption. Given you already have as big of a user network as can be offered on NOSTR. How do you differentiate so that people like me (not a ‘PV GM’ ‘GN fren’ user) want to use your client instead of another…?
Intentar la donación por empresas de minería sería una loca idea 💡? Lo digo por qué si los clientes Nostr triunfan las transacciones de Bitcoin escalarian y por consecuencia las empresas mineras se verían beneficiadas, #Nostr #Hispano #Venezuela #España #Argentina #ElSalvador nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3ksprpmhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuumwdae8gtnnda3kjctvqgsr9cvzwc652r4m83d86ykplrnm9dg5gwdvzzn8ameanlvut35wy3grqsqqqqqph7xzn9
Intentar la donación por empresas de minería sería una loca idea 💡? Lo digo por qué si los clientes Nostr triunfan las transacciones de Bitcoin escalarian y por consecuencia las empresas mineras se verían beneficiadas, #Nostr #Hispano #Venezuela #España #Argentina #ElSalvador nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3ksprpmhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuumwdae8gtnnda3kjctvqgsr9cvzwc652r4m83d86ykplrnm9dg5gwdvzzn8ameanlvut35wy3grqsqqqqqph7xzn9
Intentar la donación por empresas de minería sería una loca idea 💡? Lo digo por qué si los clientes Nostr triunfan las transacciones de Bitcoin escalarian y por consecuencia las empresas mineras se verían beneficiadas, #Nostr #Hispano #Venezuela #España #Argentina #ElSalvador nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3ksprpmhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuumwdae8gtnnda3kjctvqgsr9cvzwc652r4m83d86ykplrnm9dg5gwdvzzn8ameanlvut35wy3grqsqqqqqph7xzn9
don’t give up before asking users for payments directly. i would have paid
I think it's useful to talk about the skills and tools that are needed. While up until now the skills that you (probably?) needed were programming, memory optimization, UX, user requests and the tools were libraries, ChatGPT, Algorithms, ObjC… the next steps will require you to use different skills & tools. The needed skills are more towards leadership, planning&prioritization, raising funds, marketting and your tools will be people, connections, processes, coordination/partnerships with other businesses. And note here that learning skills requires effort, but also note that it essentially requires the same approach like learning a new programming language. Watch youtube videos, get a book, try&fail couple times, practice… Now just to brainstorm couple ideas for what could be done: - create a list of all potental ideas that could bring in money and sort those by "result/cost" (= bang-for-buck) - ask for donations once a month (post a note, do a popup in the app…) - gather funds in any way possible (create project on geyser.fund, reach out to opensats, hrf, jack…), make it clear to your friends that you need money for Damus. - create a complementary product targetted at businesses (not end customer) and sell them what they need. Handle the Nostr infra for them, etc. - get a part time job next to Damus - sign up for incubator, for new app competitions, etc. - you may be able to get a loan - freeze work on Damus for couple years until there's much bigger userbase - if you would want to go to the VC/Angel route, you can likely get couple bitcoiner angel investors (I think you could get $200k@5M pre-money fairly reasonably). With others we would be happy to support you this way even if we are unlikely see the money back. That said it's also fair to say no.
I understand this 110%, have been thinking the same for @Relayable.org since as the price of #bitcoin went up the donations dried up with the exception of a few awesome nostriches. 🤙🫂 nostr:nevent1qqs04g08zqy2rp0tva948shc4j7htd9z793a8rffd50t2uqphu5l3kspzemhxue69uhksefwwfjkcctev93xcefwdaexwq3qxtscya34g58tk0z605fvr788k263gsu6cy9x0mhnm87echrgufzsxpqqqqqqzpam8z4
Inject ads into the feed. Don't over complicate it.
I don't sympathise. Bitcoin Maxis poo poo shitcoiners but they have something we don't: *they know what people want*. So it pays to clip our noses, dive in the sewer and backspat some shitcoiner types (explore-exploit). As to devs complaining FOSS doesn't pay i don't agree. i've seen one dev complain about their app which allowed users 10 torrents going at the same time on a free version. Why didn't they just make the free version 3 max, a pro-paid 10 and allow anyone, giving detailed, secure and working instructions, to build the pro without paying if they wanted to so keep the FOSS ethos? On #nostr why am i always context switching? Every time i context switch to upload a longer video to be hosted so i can link it here etc is a lost income for the dev. ** #contextswitching is lost money.** i've also spoken abou t #ti pQ without success. But supposedly "nostr doesn't pay".
This has been solved https://geyser.fund People will pay if they get value.
What is the best way to contribute. I like Damus a lot Primal doesn’t work on my phone at all not sure why posted about numerous. Damus just works!!!!
Damus reliability is still in its infancy. Soon it will work offline and in very low bandwidth situations. Reliably and efficiency will always be the priority. The new client architecture I’ve been working on is pretty mind blowing, can’t wait to demo it.
Why not get funding from bitcoin-only VC? They are a few good one out there that truly understand
Let us know how we can help keep it alive. Paid version/features?
We’ve been working on that all last month. We have a few features that I think are pretty useful (high quality translations that don’t need configuration). So it wouldn’t be just a donation subscription which is just ugh to me.
Agree. All it would do is provide a short term income for the dev. The reality is that the monetization for clients and nostr broadly at this stage is non-existent and is a problem. Could it change in the period of time grants etc could take one to - maybe. But i do agree with Pablo in respect to nostrs true nature still being unknown and to focus on this at this stage may be more of a distraction than anything else. But people gotta eat.. 🤷♂️
It is open source: https://github.com/damus-io/damus
