Oddbean new post about | logout
 What is force 
 In this context I'm thinking that no one was physically held down and given the shot without agreeing to it (except for children and/or the elderly), and no one had a gun pointed at them to get it. 
 So what is it called when you fire people and make them lose their house- failing mortgage payments and unable to feed their children unless they comply with orders? 
 extorsion? coercion?, fear based mind control? but at least in my place, nobody was forced to take it. 
 Coercion is force.   For example:
My son was in aviation school at the time.  This is an expensive program in return for a lucrative career. FAA required ALL pilots to get the shot.  If he didn't,  he was out of the program with over 100k of student loan debt and no way to pay it. 

Yes he could have quit the program,  but it would have ruined him.  
 “Bitcoiners” saying the vaxx mandate wasn’t “force” is wild 
 So were early Christians who were threatened with death unless they said "Caesar is Lord" or burned some incense to his image forced to deny their faith? No, some were faithful to the death. Even if thrown into an arena to fight wild animals they could not be forced to deny Christ.

Were churches who complied with government orders to shutdown during COVID forced to close? In some cases I did see reports of law enforcement sent to physically violate their freedom to assemble, but most churches just went along with the edicts to get along, rather than suffer any inconveniences. 
 That’s exactly my point? 
 The state forced people to get the vax so many lost their jobs. 

This seems like semantics 
 semantics is important. that's why we have words.

it's not force, it's manipulation. they are hoping to NOT use force on you that's why they make threats.

they get a lot of cameras on one case and then everyone else is afraid to risk it but if you do the analysis on the cost of that example of violence you'll realise they can't afford to do that very often in fact

that's why so many of us didn't submit... i even crossed borders without it and because of where i was, nothing happened

if there's anyone who understands the distinction between coercion (a climate of fear) and actual violence, it's people who have lived under communism, and they all are sullen and resigned... when i went through the border into bulgaria from serbia one time, the dude asks if i have a test certificate, i say no, he says "we have a problem" then waves me on and i say "what" and he just looks into the distance and waves me again

that's coercion... an illusion of potential violence

usually done because actual violence is too dangerous to try 
 There’s nothing illusionary about the state’s threat of violence. 

If you resist the state authority you *might* be punished. That is the threat based on example of force used on others. Thus the “threat of violence” by the state onto the people is equally as UNJUST as actual violence carried out. 

What good would their threats be if no one believed there is a *chance* to have actual force carried out on them? 

My family fled communism after ww2 and I can tell you that this argument is retarded. 
 The guys couldn't be forced to get the vaxx, and it paid off:
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/bart-employees-refused-covid-vaccine-get-payout-19861708.php

> “Six former BART employees are each due a $1 million payout after accusing the agency of wrongly firing them because of a COVID-19 vaccine mandate.

> On Wednesday, a jury in the U.S District Court for the Northern District of California sided with the employees who refused the vaccine for religious reasons*. BART has been ordered to pay the group more than $7.8 million, with the individual employees receiving between nearly $1.2 million and $1.5 million each.

> In October 2021, BART’s Board of Directors approved the mandate, stating that all employees must be vaccinated against the virus, though it allowed for some exceptions, including religious accommodations.” 
 coercion isn't force, it's manipulation

tyrants can't use force most of the time because if they did, the people would rise up against them in revenge for all their dead children 
 Wild. 

The state only exists because of force and its function is monopoly of force. 

Everything the state does is unjust force 
 coercion is where you make threats and give the option you want with no threat attached

it's threat, not force, they may or may not be able to actually do it, teh point is it's manipulation and it requires "exemplary violence" against a few to make everyone scared

the monopoly on drugs works like this, as does taxation

there is a difference between a threat and actual violence

they can't use force all the time or they would have an uprising and that's the end 
 if you think words are force then i have no words

you just have to say "idgaf" and do it anyway, with a bit more discretion, and probably they are not gonna do anything

that's how you end up with all these drugs everywhere, and many studies have shown that the monopoly on drugs exercised by the state using coercion actually increases overall drug use where a lot less people would otherwise use drugs

but i think it's also that when you live in a society where coercion is used, you seek escape from the mental prison that coercion entails

it's not violence if it's just words, but it can be as oppressive even still 
 are you going to tell me a punch in the face is the same as saying "i will punch you in the face if you don't take off your shirt"?

no, because they may not actually want to risk being punched back so you say "go ahead then" and give them a headbutt

and then they might not try to coerce you in the future

the difference is that the thing they want you to do is to submit to some edict, it's not the same as extortion, which is where they want you to give away property, they only want to take away a right

yes, it's still a kind of aggression, but force means they detain you, and they may beat you, kill you, that's force

most people don't want to do force, firstly, and secondly, when people start to do a lot of force, everyone else starts doing force and then you have a civil war or an insurrection

these people want power, violence (force) is just a means to an end... and coercion and extortion are cheaper, if they can scare you into submission 
 That's what I called "pressure" in the OP, which granted, is not easy, but still left people a choice. There are lots of things people don't "have" to do, they are just unwilling to accept the consequences. 
 Same with taxes, fake money, ah, you know 
 the bank is using force then too, right?