Oddbean new post about login | logout at crazy fee environments 1M is the better choice, you are right
Well this chart from @River is a ₿anger https://image.nostr.build/2377ec4b90091cdf1ecf2f388da7e40c4c36a2d2f63e6f6dd51794860f1d0cd4.jpg
Thanks yes indeed!! Very helpful!
That’s useful. You might also want to share the link to this.
I stole this image from a pleb. It was a peice of uxto consolidation that no one told me. It's now my soapbox.
😆
This chart is a banger, well hopefully more people move over to taproot, loads of exchanges are still F'n around with old address formats and self custody plebs will pay the price unfortunately
Yeah, wish I’d known this when I was moving each of my DCAs individually to cold storage after every purchase
Yup I am trying to ring the warning bell. Not your keys is a good first step but it's missing a big price of info
We are the top of the snow plow, carving the path to make it easier for others to follow
*tip
So basically everything that’s below 500k sats is dust anyways in the future. Long term holdings should at least be 1M. Thanks for sharing
There might be use cases down the road that will help smaller utxos, but I don't feel like exploring those. So I feel it's easier to plan now
Nonsense
Well, care to explain why it’s nonsense? Or just trolling?
Since when are fees going to be permanently so high that a 500k utxo is dust? It sounds like fear mongering. Consolidating, especially of mixed utxo's, is a very poor privacy practice.
Well, there is an argument to be made that tx fees will be higher in the future permanently. Nobody knows but for me it makes sense as corporations and nation states start to use it on a regular basis, that tx fees will never come down to levels we are used to now. As for your privacy concern, you can mix 1m sats sized UTXOs in Whirlpool. So I don’t understand your point.
Tx fees going up forever is a big blockers argument, and considered inevitable by many with a shitcoin mindset, because the fees (and other proposed ways to reward miners) have to offset declining block rewards. But, has permanent rising fees played out as block size went from 50 to 6.25? No, it has not, you can still get low fees, although it has been harder lately due to unsustainable shenanigans the latest of which being ordinal graffiti. And the reason fees won't inevitably rise is because the value of bitcoin rises.
I mean, you could be right. Your argument of increased price makes sense. I still can see a future where 500sat/vB is permanent. If 50% of the world will want to use Bitcoin, block space will just be too scarce for prices to stay as low as they are. People will have to open and close channels to LN all the time. But we’ll see
100% of the world will use bitcoin and it could cost hundreds of dollars equivalent to move a utxo on the base layer, like take it to the extreme where one sat is worth one of today's dollars. Practically speaking only whales (owning >= 1 whole coin) and layer 3's like fedi's move coin on the base layer to service their lightning nodes.
There you go. You just said it yourself: 500k sats will be dust. I don’t believe that only whole coiner will be able to transact on-chain. I think 1m sats will always be economically viable.
?? In that hypothetical, 500k sats would be the equivalent of half a million today's dollars
“Transaction fees going up forever” is different than “fees will be higher in the future permanently”. The former is false, the later is likely true. 500k sats is unlikely to be operative dust, but it could cost a very high percentage of itself in fees to be moved. You can read the article where that chart came from, and the math behind it, here: https://unchained.com/blog/small-utxo-bitcoin-dust/
Sauce?
I prefer sub sauce, it's a very amazing Canuck thing
Unchained, not River https://unchained.com/blog/small-utxo-bitcoin-dust/
Personally I think fees will continue to rise in dollar terms but will continue to fall in sats term over longer period. But it’s better to be prepared for worse.
The average transaction cost has been pretty much the same since the block chain started. I remember Adam Beck saying its been around 33 or 333bytes? In the end the question is what do miners sell? Blockspace. It's rare and once filled it will be expensive.
Adam Beck https://media.tenor.com/UU4WrYE47UkAAAAC/spongebob-squarepants-patrick-star.gif
"I'm a loser baby..." https://image.nostr.build/5aac974f29b2f25ca99f1448534eae54118ff69a86f47c2a14720f8a6145a5f9.jpg
I had no choice https://image.nostr.build/6fc63b70d7bdd698795057cb1be34b3644ff1bc0e8ccf2372cd0c2a594097280.jpg
Hahaha awesome 🤣 I was getting my kids lunch ready so I didn't have time to make an edit. This is perfect 😂😂
He was on what bitcoin did… Laugher intensify?
Oh you mean there’s another guy actually named adam beck?
I don't know who these yahoos are. I consume immense amounts of podcasts. I think he's started a fedi and a side chain called liquid which seems like extra steps
Yeah that’s adam back 😂
Lol
😁🤭🫂
@Aaron van Wirdum Can we get Dan a copy of your book? https://thegenesisbook.com
? I mean thank you, any reason in particular?
https://image.nostr.build/48faf729aba6da611cfcd0664cd2435c0de14d5a04eded9f6d76e0a96594ae66.jpg
Ah, an early adopter and contributor. I will say he speaks from knowledge when I have listened to him
Transaction cost has certainly not been “the same.” Your reference to bytes suggests you’re referring to Transaction SIZE? Maybe. Cost, no. Cost, denominated in SATS has gone DOWN over time. Cost, denominated in DOLLARS has gone UP over time.
If the size is the same and the fee rate is the same, then the sats cost must also be the same. The only way for the sats cost to decline, is if the fee rates decline (most people are expecting the opposite) or forks that create new efficient methods of using blockspace (SegWit, Taproot)
I view blockspace as community not scarcity. It’s gets produced every 10 min and will be produced for ♾️ time. So whenever there is congestion, it incentivizes newer protocol to develop which in-turn removes the congestion from the block. Also if worlds gets priced in bitcoin, it will eventually price out low economic value transactions on base chain (like $100 transactions at that time) as sats will be more valuable than dollars then.
The only realistic way that fees fall in sats terms is with forks, or new tech that uses blockspace more efficiently
Important chart for UTXO sizes nostr:nevent1qqsvw2sp5wzmjdxsrx6cdrfcy2w3m0gq3ljatcv73hfgptljksahx5gpp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzyp4q9d746hquampaptfgm4cufnlwhd3e0w2laawd2qevjg36z0gz5qcyqqqqqqgcavz0x
every time I see a chart like this I immediately imagine a chorus of Bitcoiners laughing at poor people and telling them they got the price they deserved. nostr:note1cu4qrgu9hy6dqxd4s6xnsg5ark7sprl96hsearwjszhl9dpmwdgs2keqk5
Valuable chart in terms of protecting your UTXOs. In the past when massive amounts of dust transactions have belonged to a single entity they have worked with miners to run large consolidation transactions that would otherwise not make it into the mempool.
Very true, I worry though that in the future of blockchain that cost will be very exorbitant, and won't be available to a pleb.
As transaction fees rise, hopefully, Lightning ⚡ give us some viable options. It needs development and then adoption, but it is making good progress. https://m.primal.net/HigH.png
I created this chart, it's on the Unchained blog, not River. https://unchained.com/blog/small-utxo-bitcoin-dust/
Great chart. Really puts possible futures into perspective.
I like a visual element https://m.primal.net/Hinl.png
