Oddbean new post about login | logout The comments on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38718544 are proof that we can't make "just apps" and have people use them without knowing that Nostr is a thing. Users must know. And in fact I think it is much easier to teach people about Nostr than about why your damn app doesn't have email+password login and where is it storing things and how does moderation work without telling them about Nostr. And when they finally understand the basics of Nostr they will suddenly understand everything about not only your app, but about all other Nostr clients.
Preach!
Onboarding will improve when there is a proper key manager for nostr or its integrated in to other key managers. The criticisms about nsec are totally fair for noobs, they don’t want to learn about how identity on nostr works before they even get on nostr but if they join and have a good experience they’ll probably be willing to learn some basics post hoc
creating the culture of Nostr nostr:note1yfseuhd7plcpch0m44mffhvauk66agzhxsc86g8svaaquxr7q7wshr4gaq
I have to partially disagree. People should not have to understand the underlying tech to use a product. Most people are not even aware that JSON exists. If they have no technical background, why would they even try to understand it? I really like the idea of nostr, but even as a technically capable person, I found the current apps cumbersome (unfortunately). It could help to teach concepts like "moderation works locally" but I don't see why users need to understand that this is due to the underlying architecture of relays. I am truly excited about nostr, but I believe there is still a lot of work before broader adoption could happen.
Adoption comes after having great patience. Don’t push, pull will happen towards Nostr.
This ☝️ Nostr's brilliancy is it's simplicity, companies can easily integrate with nostr and build on top of it without anyone's permission or worry to be shut down. We must just keep using building and improving, the rest will follow. Every time I check nostr I find new cool stuff people are building.
I think this leaves us with 2 options. Either A) We educate new users about the basics of Nostr, to get them aqcuatented with key managment and how things will work. B) We abstract away as much as we can initially so users just think they are using a normal web app until they leter realize what makes Nostr different. I think that route B is easier for board adoption, but, it will be very important to build things in such a way so users can "Opt-out" of custodial key managment solutions once they have spent the time to get a better understanding of how nostr works. What @PABLOF7z has been working on will help onboarding immensely imo.
How to handle key management on mobile, other than: - nsecbunker (buggy) - installing a new browser and an extension (ux black hole) Genuinely curious what the options are
I agree with this a lot. There are particular properties that nostr confers that other way of creating apps do not. What these properties enable is what should be the value prop’s focus when describing nostr apps to new users. You can’t get away from describing nostr to do that, but, like @rabble said, the nostr dot com approach is not good either and each app/use-case needs to figure out how to describe what’s relevant/special on its own.
I have a personal favorite workflow for this. Create an app that is only for nsec creation and profile editing. That is good looking, simple, and has 3 slides of onboarding. Apps don’t need to create individual profile creation pages, they just always link to that one app. This way, roughly all new users go through that profile creator app no matter which app they get purple pilled with.
https://metadata.nostr.com/ https://nosta.me/
Yup. Thats exactly what I meant. And I have used both metadata before, and I love it, that’s why I think both of these could potentially work. They will need some improvements, but this is a step that psychologically gives the user the understanding that my ID is not specially tied to one app.
Your post is getting a lot of likes. Added to the https://nostraco.in/hot feed
There were three major themes that I personally saw: 1. "The onboarding sucks because I don't understand what most of this nonsense means." This comes down to, at least in my opinion, those with some sort of background in Bitcoin making stuff for those that most likely have some sort of background in Bitcoin. 2. "I see crypto bullshit so I'm noping the fuck out and not wasting my time." Saw that coming from lightyears away. A problem I've mentioned multiple times. 3. "A lack of service-side moderation means this is going to turn into an illegal mess, if it hasn't already." This, to me, comes down to a mix of genuine concern plus political beliefs plus not understanding how to curate one's own content intake.
Regarding 1: im not sure if it was onboarding or simply nsec that was the issue. I tead those comments as coming from a bunch of devs / tech savvy people projecting how they think normal people operate. 2. This can be solved if clients collectively make an effort to diversify their recommeded content. If you recommend high profile people who also talk about Bitcoin- you will have a lot of Bitcoin in the initial feeds. 3. There’s an opportunity to tell a better story around this and connect it back to how the big platforms fail but there is an alternative. This is something the community can work on in 2024.
1. It's not necessarily projecting. If tech-savvy people are having issues figuring things like nsec out, it can be fairly safe to assume that the average person will also have problems figuring it out. 2. It's not just the diversity in content, or rather the lack thereof, that people are not a fan of. It's that all of the most popular clients have bitcoin baked in. I've said it once and I'll say it again: A large number of people see "Bitcoin=crypto=scam" and will nope the fuck out when they catch ANY whiff of Bitcoin. Education/onboarding/UX is all fine and dandy, but until there are some client developers and relay operators who are willing to divorce Bitcoin from what they are offering, there is a good chance that The NOSTR can and will ultimately flounder. 3. It doesn't matter how bad "Big Tech" fails. If the outsider's perception is that The NOSTR happily allows content from "nazi pedophiles" without repercussion and no hope for better moderation, then people will nope the fuck out without giving it a chance. Doesn't matter if that actual type of content is being posted or if it's just one's own biases coloring their perception of what's being posted.
It's honestly kind of disheartening. HN is the nerd crowd and if *they* have a bad reaction to this stuff how do we expect normies to even get close?
"Normies" are smarter, they can learn.
I do not think there is any evidence whatsoever to back that claim up. People are stupid and lazy and do not want to learn jack shit to use social media. Period. And they’re not.
People know how to drive cars, make bank transfers, use cumbersome stuff like Paypal. People even know how to do Bitcoin transactions or buy NFTs on Solana. That's not even considering that many people do work and produce useful things for the world that you and I wouldn't know how to.
Those circles don't necessarily overlap - people who are expert in one thing are not necessarily going to be skilled at others unless there is a market reason to pull people towards change most will choose the path of least resistance
I don’t know in what universe PayPal is cumbersome to use. I’ve had 10’s of thousands of dollars run through PayPal over the course of years and years. Never had an issue with a single payment. I use lightning for the censorship characteristics NOT for ease of use because that’s a joke. I also pay less in fees (aggregate) on many transactions on PayPal as I do on BTC. Nor are any of the people doing any crypto things you just mentioned “normies.” People get so lost in the bitcoin bro culture they’ve completely lost touch. 99.9% of the world has never used *any* form on crypto, and most of them don’t care to. Normies have to have Microsoft force them to update their computers. Normies reset their passwords via “forgot my password” three or four times a year and they set the fucking thing. Normies are not going to deal with a mile long nsec, different addresses for BTC and lightning, block times, fee fluctuations, etc. Normies like stuff like the company you are working for does. Just custody their keys. Make Nostr no different than twitter. That’s what they want. They want twitter without evil space man.
That's too long, sorry.
I’m not. That’s exactly what I expected out of you.
Fr what kind of fucking reply was that? Out of touch.
Inb4 “TL;DR”, you’re wrong and you made bad points. Your opinion is simply incorrect. “Normies” are dumb as fuck and regularly struggle to do all of the things you mentioned. It’s ridiculous to believe a habitual action like driving is on the same tier as understanding complex information. They are not even close to the same, specifically in how the brain processes them. One is a bodily action that can be practiced and transitioned into intrinsic memory (walking, breathing, etc), the other is information processing through extrinsic memory (formula, recital, etc). Not everyone has the capacity to parse complex information, but every human being has the capacity to drive.
I completely agree with @fiatjaf here. That’s why we decided to make our main tagline “Join us on Nostr”. All app labels talk about Nostr account, etc. You are not joining Primal, you are joining Nostr. nostr:note1yfseuhd7plcpch0m44mffhvauk66agzhxsc86g8svaaquxr7q7wshr4gaq
Are there any nostr clients that do no mention nostr? I don’t understand the source of fiatjafs concern here.
Good point, I wasn't clear about that and I don't have any examples, but it's a new "movement", spearheaded by @Karnage , I think, that says clients must hide Nostr from users at all costs. And you always get these people saying that "normal internet users don't know about TCP" so it's a widespread belief.
For anything to be mass adopted, it has to be easy to use and having to understand the tech has to be totally optional. Nostr can get here, but there is simply more work to do before the apps are really consumer friendly. Nothing that can’t/won’t be solved, just may take a bit of time.
I'm highly technical, a Bitcoin maxi, and I understand Nostr. I come back every 3 months or so and it's still a nightmare to use, nevermind setup. I'll come back in 3 months. Primal is by far the best client I've used, but it's still awful to use.
if users need to understand the underlying technology to use a thing, then the thing will never catch traction. normies users don't care.
What an original take.
why is originality the barrier for legitimacy? I can just make one up for the sake of being original if you'd like. "let's make it as difficult as possible. if they can't figure it out, then they don't deserve it." did I do originality right? is my opinion legitimate now?
My grandma never used the internet, my parents use it and vaguely know the concept of account i usually do the initial setup and login and that's it, I ofc know and also know about private and public keys, many ppl i know also know about this either bc they are in tech, because of crypto or because of friends. People may not know how it works now, but in time everyone will.
I have to agree with the comments about the front page being a huge b!tcoin ad as offputting / poor first impression
Surprising, considering you're the first and most popular girl on nostr - I'd expect a wider variety of topics 😮💨
Proof for this is to go to yabu.me and despite not knowing a word of Japanese, still being able to post and interact because you already know - as memory reflex - how nostr conventions works (nip-07, lists of relays, the + button, etc.) Nostr in this sense is alike transit etiquette (following transit sings in other country), or if you like, like driving standard (whereas x is the puny automatic or self driving 😆 )
Decentralisation is the long term advantage but is the short term constraint and consequently nostr will take time to evolve because it will be expanding in all directions at the same time. There will be winners and losers along the way and these will be decided by many factors, including plain old good luck. Patience and perseverance will be key.
I remember seeing Flare land on HN and seeing the responses. My general observation of most nostr enabled services is that the UX SUCKS. “Paste your nsec here or use an extension”, 9/10 that’s all you get. No explanation, sometimes not even a homepage to give context. Why on earth should you expect a “normie” (hate that term) or even a knowledgeable user to use your service? The implicit message you’re giving is “admittance by secret handshake only”. The sheer arrogance of some of the people responding here is making my blood boil. Nostr is a FREEDOM protocol, Bitcoin is a FREEDOM currency. If you don’t help people get in at the base understanding than how it can it GIVE FREEDOM. Dunking on “normies” tells me you don’t GET nostr, you don’t GET Bitcoin. You treat like an exclusive club to make yourself feel superior. Rant over
I don't get your point. Are you saying normies are dumb and incapable of understanding Nostr?
Not at all, I ranted too much so the intention was lost. If you’re going to post a Nostr service somewhere like HN or any other non-Nostr aware place you have to expect that they will criticise. You hit “login” and you’re greeted with a pattern of authentication you’ve never seen before. Yes it can be googled but as a user you would expect some level of signposting to where you can learn more.
you can't give somebody freedom dumb fuck freedom must be taken
This is why I’m taking a different approach to most of what I am building into Nostr. Building from the Normie direction towards Nostr. Not the other way around. I learned long ago during the dotcom days to baby step people into tech. If it’s too overwhelming, they will walk away.
That's interesting. What are you building? Can we see a link?
Well, there are smaller items but the larger one is my media business that has had Roku and Apple TV apps with films and music videos for years. The control panel for artists to add media is old school user/pass but also Nostr login for those who want it. I have typical licensing deals for those who want that but offer Lightning tips for those who understand it. The media itself uses my own api backends. Content upload data is database stored for now but I plan on dualing that with a Nostr kind soon. I also added a new PWA recently with Lightning addresses and QR codes. I’ll slowly add in zaps too. I’m purposely trickling in Nostr features too not confuse the artists who I’m working with and from my own experience the new ones I meet. https://versusmedia.com
Somebody hit up Kanye or Trump or whoever is being cancelled next that is super high profile and get them on board. Those guys are nobs imo but they have the attention of the masses🤢 UI helps but also people need an impetus to take up new tech at least for those outside of the early adopters. A viral event that gets a lot of people looking for alternatives to Twitter or other pop social media. Things like Canada banning content is what I mean but even larger. Whatever UI improvements can be made for these people will help conversion but you need an influx of people also.
It'd be great if they had the attention span to...
You can definitely showcase Nostr internals and still have a great UX. Teaching Nostr is the key to adoption. nostr:nevent1qqszycv7tklqluqutha66a55mkw7tddw5ptngvrayrcxw7swrplq08gpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejsygpm7rrrljungc6q0tuh5hj7ue863q73qlheu4vywtzwhx42a7j9n5psgqqqqqqsqxt2jy
I try to explain pubkey cryptography again and again. This doesn’t click with non-techies. How can nostr? With hashing and even signing involved?
Try starting from the relay side: "if you publish your content to a bunch of servers and people also read it from a bunch of random untrusted servers, how can you be sure it was written by the correct person?" After they think for a while you can just say cryptographic signatures solve that.