Oddbean new post about login | logout Lightning to Monero Payment Bridge Seamlessly transfer funds from your Lightning wallet to a Monero wallet. Simply enter the recipient’s Monero address. A Lightning invoice will be generated. Once paid, the received sats will be automatically converted and sent to the recipient’s Monero wallet. Thoughts? https://video.nostr.build/2baf8a37e1fe4664fd1cfdc6937ce51e3af6a72e3453250d6b4c012f05970fd0.mp4
Cool, but unnecessary
Why would you want to convert into monero?
Current serverless functions utilize non-custodial exchange APIs. I've tried a bunch of options and I'm still figuring out the best way to do it. It's a work in progress! nostr:nprofile1qqsvdac80utfn4gvly4fv54la0l6cp0udpptnm3ezzyajkdc44w53lgpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuvrcvd5xzapwvdhk6qgdwaehxw309aukzcn49ekk2qghwaehxw309aex2mrp0yh8x6tpd4ehgu3wvdhk68na3xp
LN privacy is uncertain at best
Yeah? Then tell me who did I last zap?
pro tip even if some rando on the Internet cant track your txs, it doesn't prove they're private. in fact its a pretty dumb argument 👍
Sh$tcoiners love to ignore lightning. If some rando on the internet says its not private also doesn't make it so. LN is good enough. Its growning, its instant, and its getting better. You don't need to use sh$tcoins.
how about you tell me as an end user, how do I establish what my anonset is when making a LN tx? I'll wait. (cause you can't) (but end users CAN easily know their privacy guarantees on Monero)
also, aren't you using custodial LN?? So you don't have any privacy anyway. Or the same privacy as you have with a bank, which is the same thing as zero. and obviously don't feel like you need strong privacy or censorship resistance anyway. and you're saying nobody actually needs an decentralized private tx network?? some of us not only want to opt out of dragnet surveillance (which you aren't) but we also want strong guarantees against *targeted* surveillance (which LN arguably doesn't provide even if you run your own infra).
I have a variety of LN wallet that I use for different purposes. Yes, zapping on nostr is custodial which I keep a small amount of sats. Sometimes its nice to know who zapped you so you can return the favor. Where's the evidence of surveillance in a noKYC'd UTXO that does a few coin join rounds and then opens an unannounced LN channel? I believe that you can get good privacy with bitcoin. It's just a few more steps. There's really no need to use monero.
> a noKYC'd UTXO that does a few coin join rounds and then opens an unannounced LN channel are you saying thats how you are doing anonymous LN txs?
Don't you worry about my stack darling. Generally I only spend with LN. If it needs to be more private, you can use an ecash mint.
iow you're not even doing this
Then why would I say it? BTW, do you own bitcoin?
All my utxos have whirlpool history bro so why would I need LN? and frankly thats a cop out
Lol
I heard that the whirlpool maxi's moved to monero. No wonder you hate lightning
You're doing a pretty shitty job of showing any other alternatives I never said I hate lightning. LN is cool, I'm just realistic about the lack of privacy guarantees As opposed to you Maxis who are trying to sell it as a completed privacy solution. When it ain't.
Look, if the FBI or other 3 letter agencies want to find out all your financial activity they'll probably be able to no matter the source of money you're using. What I'm saying is that LN is good enough and its getting better. There's unannounced channels, multi part payment and trampoline routing. More recently (and yet to be fully rolled out) are bolt12 and blinded paths. Then there's also all the ecash mints which give an anonymity set of all the users in the mint. There are other tools too. Coin joins like join market and wasabi (joinstr also in testing phase). There are state chains and UTXO swaps. There's liquid, there's silent payments and there is payjoin. There will be more too. I'll admit that it is slow but eventually there will be privacy focused wallets that do a lot of this in the background giving the user the "landing" your meme suggests. For now there's some hoops to jump through. I don't really have a problem if people want to hold bitcoin and whenever they need to spend they swap into XMR for the payment. I just don't think its necessary and you definitely don't want to be holding it for too long. It also doesn't guarantee absolute privacy (especially for noobs).
This all started because you were saying that there's no reason anyone should want to jump from LN to XMR I think we've thoroughly answered that question at this point Monero provides good privacy guarantees for anyone right out of the box with good ux. Noobs included. As opposed to the Rube Goldberg machines you're proposing and the Coming Soon™️ privacy features I've been hearing about since I came into Bitcoin like 8 years ago So yeah there's plenty of good reasons somebody might want use XMR. It's good money that protects users. I suggest you accept that fact.
Right out of the box? Not running a node? Straight from the exchange?
Obviously buying kyc from an exchange exposes you to the exchange. However unlike Bitcoin they have no idea where you send the XMR afterwards. Connecting to 3rd party node does NOT expose your transaction history or anything about your wallet. Your wallet *will tell the node the last time it synced, ie from what block it wants information. not really a big deal. The biggest issue can be that if you broadcast a tx to a malicious (customized for chain surveillance) node it can know the true input(s) to that tx. Which could be a problem if you *did buy KYC from a CEX and turned right around and spent using that malicious node and the node runners were coordinating with that CEX. They wouldn't know where the transaction went, but they would be able to see that it was you that sent it. If that makes sense And it wouldn't work if you had moved the coins between the CeX and spending them with the adversary's node. So yeah there are edge cases where its possible to screw up your privacy if do very specific things and happen to be unlucky nothing is completely drool-proof
Realizing that I screwed up this explanation The Eve-> Alice -> Eve attack I describe is always possible and has nothing to do with a malicious node> That is to say if the person you receive the Monero from and the person you send it to are colluding they can eliminate the decoys in the ring signatures and see the true outputs The danger with a malicious node is just that if you connect to broadcast a tx without hiding your IP somehow they can see that IP sent that transaction. Which is usually true with other chains anyway but Monero uses dandelion which prevents knowing what node broadcasted what transaction in most cases 🙇
>"if the FBI or other 3 letter agencies want to find out all your financial activity they'll probably be able to no matter the source of money you're using." Then why are you trying to attain privacy at all if you believe this? Unnannounced channesl ironically gives up plausible deniability and doesn't offer you privacy from your counter party Ecash anonset is fractured between mints and is custodial, so you introduce the ability to get rugged, fractionally reserved, or shotgun KYC'd Everything else you listed like Silent Payments only solve part of the problem (receiver privacy - and is less effective without the others). It's a mishmash with no comprehensive solution.
I think they have bigger fish to fry. There's still a cost to take someone down. If you don't do anything like KYC'D base layer bitcoin it exposes you to $5 wrench attacks and social engineering attacks too. You have to do something to at least stop this. I meant the individual mint. You have an anonymity set of everyone in that particular mint. Yes, its custodial so that's the trade off. There is apparently a way to pay a LN invoice from various mints but I think it isn't released yet.
Then wouldn't it make sense to increase the cost/difficulty via the best possible privacy so that further shrinks the pool of users they can realistically go after? I think ecash is neat, it's the best form of custodial so far, and use it too for zaps on here, but it gives away one of the core attributes of Bitcoin (doesn't remove trusted third parties) so I don't think it's usecase replaces Monero. Even Calle the creator of Cashu has said the same thing. What I meant was Monero has a global anonset of all users it's users, while ecash will always be smaller since it fractures by the nature of being split among many different mints. Additionally, the anonset is further split inside each mint since token values have their own anonset buckets (1,2,4,8,16,32, etc). Yes, I believe its called multi-mint payments. I don't think it's out yet either. Definitely another improvement.
whats this now? why do individual mints split up the anonset internally? i think i saw Calle messing around with multimint payments... extremely alpha implementation of course.
"Larger amounts most likely have less good privacy properties, due to their token denominations being rare. Cashu uses fixed (power-of-2) token denominations to create a hide-in-the-crowd effect. But the larger a token gets, the more likely it is that fewer and fewer of them exists, and at some point there is no crowd to hide anymore. If there is only one token of a specific denomination, it can always be linked back to its creation." https://docs.cashu.space/faq
I should also correct myself for anyone reading this. Monero anonymity set of all it's users only applies to receivers right now. But FCMP will put sender privacy at the same level eventually.
LN is not Bitcoin.
hes right. saying LN is not BTC is saying "multisig is not BTC" its not a separate token, just time locked multisig.
what is moving on the LN is something different from what is moving on the Bitcoin network, they are 2 separate networks, it is exactly like another token, if someone found a way to create BTCLN out of thin air on the LN what will happen ? it's more obvious here: https://exch.cx/ https://image.nostr.build/93d1c8cdeb984a08e68ae9c14b6827bee54265d7318066354d54ffb2de8af5f0.png
It's not accurate to think of Ln as a separate token moving on top of BTC It's better to think of it as a network that claims ownership of sats inside BTC multi-sig contracts There's no way to claim ownership of a sat that doesn't exist. ie you cant create supply from nothing The best anyone can do claim the sats in the channel (multisig contract) from their counterparty and hope they can get away with it.
Assuming people will only use L2 because it's cheaper, they will never settle the transaction on Bitcoin network, do you think it's impossible to cheat ?
Here you can check to see some people you’ve zapped… https://nostr.band/npub1smreuk4gcs0k3jdz8zzckzxy6c7pkr8x6nafd5e2jr0jt0vrkpeqvpxn8w?overview=zaps-sent
Thanks for sharing. Didn't know about that. But no. They weren't all the people I zapped.
Well now ya do, I did only say it was some… but this shows you that not all lighting transactions are private
Uh... The whole point of zaps is that they are not private.
How does this work and what method is used for conversion rates?
Is it atomic and trustless? Do you have a demo I can try?
Currently, it uses serverless functions for payment verification, swapping, and redirection. This is the first implementation; the final version will be significantly different. Then we can simply turn these serverless functions into self-hostable serverless relays, thus reducing trust. I will try to post an initial version tomorrow; it's still in very early stages.
Can you ping me? Also can you share the git repo if available?
I probably wouldn’t get it right on the first try, but you can’t skip the first tries. Two important objectives: 1. Features set exactly as described in the post below, with minimal backend, using a serverless architecture. 2. Turning that backend into easily self-hostable serverless relays, with no operational cost, one-click deployment, and trustless. If users have the ability to self-host at no cost with just a few extra clicks, it eliminates the need for building dumb apps. nostr:nevent1qqszx4tmp2tdpxkk9wrj5ed2udt3ngk802vpxejw24gg5mvz69lzyzgpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5hsygxx7urh795e65x0j25k22l7hlavqh7xss4eacu3pzwetxu26h2gl5psgqqqqqqsunujpj
I think this is a great idea, and I'm excited to try it once it's available for use. Facilitating the easy conversion of BTC to XMR will encourage more people to use XMR which will expand its adoption and practical use. This is a good thing. I'll be on the lookout for a functioning release!
Quite frankly it will make me use sats more often. So far the zaps are only for playing around and monero for reap stuff. Now I can use both.
Looks useful. Where can I find this?
I can’t say I see Monero as the future of privacy for bitcoin payments but this is still interesting - it shows we still have so much more to build
Monero as it exists today is not the ultimate future of money. The ultimate future of money is 100% obfuscated programmable mimblewimble without transaction kernels. It won't be mimblewimble, the cryptography just doesn't work for 100% obfuscation or programmability without kernels, but it's something like that in the sense that there is only the UTXO set, no history storage required. But, Monero adopts whatever makes it better at it's job. So, it's highly likely if what I've described becomes real, Monero will become that because that would be the holy grail. Do you think Bitcoin would become that? They don't want to change a single thing ever.
Tbh I don’t know much about code or programming but we are always figuring out new ways to do things with what we already have. Bitcoin is still early in the adoption phase and I wouldn’t be surprised if as more people & companies come online we figure it out-kind of one of those things we don’t know what we don’t know. I like seeing things like the Monero thing because it shows one little discovery or idea can change how we do things
Monero is used today for what made bitcoin useful ten years ago. When you didn't bought bitcoin ten years ago, you wouldn't understand monero today either.
Tested various other approaches for this lightning-to-Monero payment bridge & shortlisted two for the project: one for the initial release and another for the long term. 1. Fixedfloat: This is the simplest option to implement, with direct support for BTC-LN/XMR pairs, decent swap speeds, and a user experience that aligns well with expectations. Con: It relies on the Fixedfloat DEX API. While this is a decentralized exchange, this API reliance still introduces a single point of failure. 2. Atomic Swap: This enables a truly decentralized swap between Bitcoin and Monero, functioning in a peer-to-peer manner without any intermediaries or third-party APIs. Unlike Fixedfloat, however, it’s more complex, requiring a solid understanding and running nodes for both the Lightning network and Monero blockchain. But once set up, Atomic Swap becomes a far superior option. I already have a working version of the Fixedfloat implementation, so I'll release an initial version soon for testing. Atomic Swap is my real focus it will take some time to learn and implement, but it’s the solution I want in the long run, and I plan for it to eventually replace Fixedfloat entirely. nostr:nevent1qqszx4tmp2tdpxkk9wrj5ed2udt3ngk802vpxejw24gg5mvz69lzyzgpzpmhxue69uhk2tnwdaejumr0dshsygxx7urh795e65x0j25k22l7hlavqh7xss4eacu3pzwetxu26h2gl5psgqqqqqqsat3sdy
Fixedfloat has had this for awhile
Is simple: you have to fucked up to give your sats for a shitcoin. https://m.primal.net/HghG.gif
Great tool nostr:nevent1qqszx4tmp2tdpxkk9wrj5ed2udt3ngk802vpxejw24gg5mvz69lzyzgpzamhxue69uhhsmtj9e6hxetwdaehgu3wdaexwtczyrr0wpmlz6va2r8e92t990ltl7kqtlrgg2u7uwgs38v4nw9dt4y06qcyqqqqqqg5gdglz
based
Putting together a basic prototype, and while it's very sketchy but, it's functional. There's definitely room for improvement, and I still need to explore other approaches. nostr:nevent1qqszx4tmp2tdpxkk9wrj5ed2udt3ngk802vpxejw24gg5mvz69lzyzgpzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuvrcvd5xzapwvdhk6tczyrr0wpmlz6va2r8e92t990ltl7kqtlrgg2u7uwgs38v4nw9dt4y06qcyqqqqqqg785rx2
