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Bitcoin Apostle | 3 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +3 
 I get that.. 15 years in we don’t have solid layers on top of the base layer. Lightning is cool but isn’t a foolproof solution as it still requires base layer to set up channels.
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elbitcoinero | 3 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag 
 Arapanet was first introduced in 1969 but HTTP was not available until 1989...so 20 years so we still have some time if we compare #Bitcoin to the adopción of the internet.
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BTC_P2P | 3 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +1 
 It does require an on chain TX but that one tx can supplant thousands or millions of base layer TXs. That’s substantial compression. Ecash is another viable L2 in its infancy. Just give it time. It’s happening.
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Bitcoin Apostle | 3 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +1 
 Very true. I only ask because we are wanting everyone to adopt Bitcoin but if the tech isn’t ready, it might be a turn off to newcomers who are curious.
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BTC_P2P | 3 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +4 
 Yeah I hear you but realistically global adoption at scale is not on the horizon. Right now TXs on chain are cheap and confirm fast and all of the tech around base layer value transfer / storage is very nice. Users can have an excellent experience with free software wallets, LN swaps and/or very affordable hardware signers that are fool proof. Looking at “the now” the Network is more than sufficient. 

It’s really cool and I think Bitcoin base tech is ready for global adoption at scale (though it will continue to get better through time). It’s just that the if demand for TXs increases by an order of magnitude overnight transactions will get expensive. I don’t think that’s a bad thing but small TXs are then priced out. So at that point LN comes into play. And it does work quite well but isn’t nearly as refined as on chain tech (yet). 

The entire world isn’t going to jump into Bitcoin overnight. Adoption will continue organically and have time to evolve and be refined as adoption plods on. I think the Bitcoin Network and its adjacent tech can absolutely handle the level of users that will enter the space this bull run.
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Bitcoin Apostle | 3 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +1 
 I appreciate your thoughtful answers to my question. Definitely can get on board with what you are saying. My only caveat is say overnight adoption happens which most likely won’t, lightning channels will be expensive to open but that neither here nor there. I agree with your assessment that Bitcoin adoption will be slow and gradual. I’m still the only bitcoiner I know IRL in my immediate circle of friends and family.
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BTC_P2P | 3 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +1 
 Yeah no problem I enjoy these kind of conversations and thought experiments. 

You are right in that when TX fees are an order of magnitude higher opening a self-custodial LN channel will be very costly. I think Ecash or custodial LN will be the go-to in those situations. Which I personally don’t have a problem with. Custodial services will have their place in this environment. 

When 99.95% of an individual’s wealth is properly shielded behind Sha256 then the small transactional amounts moved over custodial L2s as needed aren’t much of a risk at all. And it’ll enable use of Bitcoin for commerce very efficiently. It’ll work well bc custodian services specialize in efficiency and ease-of-use.