Oddbean

Email ain't designed for selling fuckin cocaine. I promote the idea of self-hosting email on a VPS, to stop passive surveillance. Meaning: No AI is scanning this stuff. Then you can use aliases like anonaddy to hide from services that it's even your email Proton openly admits to scanning btw. So without a VPS, you got Cloudflare, Gmail, Proton, and the WEF glow boys shoving the AI scan up your rectum, and seeing the SUM of your online activity, because almost every service out there demands an email. Is it air-tight end-to-end-quantum-nuclear-shelter? No. But it's a little digital home for your work (docs, files, content): https://simplifiedprivacy.com/email-cloud-combo/index.html

Yes picking a good VPS provider is important, and that is a flaw with email. We could re-word your statement as "Email isn't good for active threats, but if the provider wastes money, then information can be obtained" However, you do not present an alternative.

I have private email hosting for my own domains. Absolutely no one should use Google for anything but those times when you order something and it says “we’d like to send you marketing emails”.

If you email someone on gmail, that one email is compromised yes. But not the entire sum of all your activity. So you're protecting against someone seeing everything you're doing. And further, the vast majority of websites will force you to register using email. So just controlling that email is all the stuff you own. Traditional social media accounts, fiat banking, websites, forums, crypto exchanges, dexes, ect Also you can use something like anonaddy to hide that it's even you that's emailing gmail. So gmail would only see each conversation in isolation, and not even know your real domain

But what is stopping you from using a different anonymous email for each different service and turning on E2EE? For every product you buy, your data is in the company’s server anyways, if that is compromised, doesn’t matter if your emails is or not. Plus you have to make sure your server is hack proof, always accessible and DDOS proof. There are already simpler solutions out there.

There is no "turning on E2EE" with email. It's SSL, like regular websites. Unless you're saying using PGP, which most people are not doing and the metadata is cleartext. When you say "there are simpler solutions out there", yes Mailu is open source email. We are setting it up for people who do not want to read technical docs. And setting up other services on the same VPS, so you get the most out of having one. Your argument is unclear. Are you suggesting people should NOT be self-sovereign and have a digital home?

Look how many choices you listed. Proton-to-Tutanota isn't E2EE, so it's only among that provider. If the person you're talking to is cool enough to use privacy email, they are cool enough to use a REAL private protocol like simplex. The purpose of email is the people you're reaching out to don't care. And the businesses you sign up for are forcing you to your account to it. Also take a step back and think about what you're really standing for right now. You're literally trying to haze me for telling people to be decentralized and as self-sovereign as they can be .... and you're instead trying to degrade what I'm doing to promote millionare Protonmail. Like what's your goal? Clearly we would be in a better place if everyone and their mother had their own VPS with email. So it's unclear your agenda.

What r u even talking about? All these email providers are E2EE. Decryptions only happen on your clients. But If you don't want to use them, just generate your own keys and send emails using PGP. You proposing newbies learn how a VPS works, learn how hosting works, learn how cybersecurity works and somehow put everything together themselves is unrealistic and somewhat dumb when simpler more elegant solutions already exists.

First, If a Protonmail user emails a Tutanota user, it is NOT end-to-end encrypted. Therefore, Your solution of there already exists all these options is bullshit, because the options contradict each other. Further, It is unclear why a Nostr user, who promotes Bitcoin, (decentralized social media and money), would be opposed to decentralized email. Finally, I reject your entire worldview of having people self-host Bitcoin nodes, which add no value to their lives. Yet, you dismiss people owning a VPS with their communications, emails, docs, files, ect. Conclusion, Given your complete failure to acknowledge basic facts, you're essentially spamming. To say you're worthless would be an improvement, currently you are sucking up my resources to respond to low level dribble. So fuck off and let's end this convo

You are a fucking idiot. Obviously It is encrypted If both people are on the same provider. Otherwise you can just import a PGP key and use it that way. The fact that you are telling people to self host but at the same time selling your own VPS solution as “self-sovereign” is exploitative. People will see through it and your “businesses” will inevitable fail So fuck off and try scamming people somewhere else

We can take your logic a step further, if Tutanota's CEO were here on Nostr today promoting his product, you'd say "Oh don’t self-host your own thing, we already have Protonmail, Mailbox, Countermail, and Startmail".

Proton cannot scan the contents of your email, they have access to limited meta data but that’s it. They also moved to a foundation. But I trust them more than some unknown saying they will set up a vps for me.

Thanks for your time in writing in for an educational opportunity. First, Proton is NOT end-to-end encrypted. As per own their blog: https://proton.me/support/proton-mail-encryption-explained (Please note, I only changed the CAPS) Quote: "The email is encrypted in transit using TLS. It is THEN UNENCRYPTED and re-encrypted (by us) for storage on our servers using zero-access encryption. Once zero-access encryption has been applied, no-one except you can access emails stored on our servers (including us). It is NOT end-to-end encrypted, however, and might be accessible to the sender’s email service" </end quote> Second, they do scan it for spam and phising. They repeat this with: Source: https://proton.me/blog/encrypted-email-spam-filtering "Emails that come from third party email providers obviously CANNOT be delivered with end-to-end encryption, but upon reaching our mail servers, we will encrypt them with the recipient’s public key before saving the messages(new window). All this is done in memory so that by the time anything is permanently stored to disk, the email is already un-readable to us. This gives us a very limited window to perform spam filtering on incoming messages." Then they further elaborate, "Secondly, the message is passed through our customized Bayesian filters which marks suspicious messages as spam. Next, we generate checksums of incoming messages and check them against a database of known spam messages. If there is a match, we mark the message as spam. The checksums are done in such a way that it is also effective against mutating spam emails." </end quote> So they claim to have it unencrypted, then have a "limited time" to stop spam, but then also claim to encrypt it, and then after compare the hash to spam hash. If their own claims were true, then why do they only have a limited time? Third, they hand over huge amounts of data. If it's encrypted, then what do they have to hand over? From their own transparency report: https://proton.me/legal/transparency "2023 Number of legal orders: 6,378 Contested orders: 407 Orders complied with: 5,971 2022 Number of legal orders: 6,995 Contested orders: 1,038 Orders complied with: 5,957" </end quote> Fourth, you imply that I am not trustworthy but proton with a World Economic Forum board member is. It's not logical to trust a government regulated and registered entity to resist government, over a pure crypto provider. We've registered our PGP key with XMRBazaar so no customer funds are risked when all customers are given a receipt. What you're really saying is you wish to attempt to haze and oppress alternatives that aren't registered with the government. If so, why do you have bitcoin glowies on your eyes? As there is no purpose in bitcoin if you still only trust government money.

lol… my tinfoil hat is just smaller than yours. And I am not hazing, I am just stating I trust proton more is all, for now at least. At I can very much be for bitcoin and limited government. I never said I was an anarchist. But again, I think I just have a smaller tinfoil hat in general. I really have very little of a threat model and support proton mainly for what they represent . Also, having an x member of the wef doesn’t mean you are complicit in the wef. Though I would like that person to state where they stand these days.

I hear you on the tinfoil hat. Part of this is not per say they are getting your data, but also about control. One of the members of our chat group was talking about being banned from proton for sending business emails in small bulk. He was saying how it was fairly small amount, but he lost the account. So it's about privacy yes, but also control over your digital home.

In the end, I trust them more than any other email provider. Also, if you have a life, hosting your own email on your own server is not a good solution, I’ve tried it more than once… super easy to get going, hard to maintain. So proton it is for me, and without proof of nefarious activities I think it is unfair to attack them. Complying with the law is not nefarious. Know your threat model and it shouldn’t be an issue, because if you really had something to hide you wouldn’t use email in the first place.

I have not researched into fedora. But the question is not is any provider per say compromising you, but if you have root access to control it. My message is: Don’t trust external services, run it yourself. Have a digital home, not just for email. for docs, chat, ect.