Oddbean new post about login | logout 1st point: true, 2nd point: completely false, 3rd point: true, every transaction has 16 possible senders. With the upcoming FCMP upgrade every transaction will appear as if anyone in the entire network could have sent it
#2 is completely true. Monero users publish the recipient's stealth address in every transaction, in plain text. The money *ends up* in a different address (one that is *derived from* the stealth address), but you still publish an address belonging to your recipient, in plain text, in every transaction. And that's just a stupid thing to do. Use payment channels, bro. https://image.nostr.build/b19eb779ec777f0ec8bae53c55c679e0bcaa5a49cf1fa194c42888f12873d84e.jpgobuserd
It is disingenuous to call stealth addresses the recipients address. They are addresses that are derived from the recipients address but can’t be tied back to the receiver except by the receiver themselves, so point 2 is basically a lie the way most people would interpret it. Payment channels are not even a contender for privacy in comparison. Unless this new channel uses some technology im unaware of, it’s using Lightning’s centralized, easily monitored tunnels. No reason to put a bandaid on top of a already flawed system
It is not disingenuous. The recipient alone has the private key; it's his address, whose else would it be? Point 2 is the honest truth: the sender puts the recipient's address in plaintext on the blockchain and if the recipient ever decides to send it he has to identify it on the blockchain again as a possible sender
This is just so rich for someone saying to use a network with notoriously terrible receiver privacy, amount privacy that isn't guaranteed by larger nodes, and IP that is exposed by default to others on the network But none of the above really matters if the vast majority of lightning users are on on custodial wallets that see everything https://zapalytics.com/
nostr:nprofile1qqszrqlfgavys8g0zf8mmy79dn92ghn723wwawx49py0nqjn7jtmjagpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchszyrhwden5te0dehhxarj9ekk7mf0qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uynmh4h It's important to be completely factual, and factually complete. Factually complete is harder than being completely factual.
To be more charitable I do like lightnings ephemeral nature @Super Testnet and think that aspect of lightning is great
Lightning doesn't have terrible receiver privacy despite false claims to the contrary. Bolt11 "invoices" had terrible privacy by default, but you could (1) manually wrap them (2) manually replace your key with an ephemeral one (3) use keysend instead. Keysend payments never exposed the recipient, but they also didn't give the sender a "proof of payment." Now we have bolt12 as an arising standard that *also* doesn't expose the recipient by default, and *does* give the sender a proof of payment. Also: the recipient's ip address is not exposed by default. You have to manually configure your network to do port forwarding if you want to show up as a routing node, and that is a big reason why most lightning users do not route payments. And most users who *do* route payments opt to do it over tor so that they *don't* expose their ip address.
Ah I get it now For those who want the TLDR of your reply: https://image.nostr.build/9a93e3cf766e56bb4cede32215a75f002206cff783b1864e238b841a72a3c0b6.png
The address published on the chain relates to absolutely nothing anywhere. You are being deliberately deceptive. bad super testnet.
In fact when you send a payment to someone, and you know the destination is "someone", that is bad for privacy. Money must not have a destination.
> Money must not have a destination Monero, however, does. Bitcoin does too but at least with bitcoin you can prevent the sender from knowing where the money went.
I don't know how many times this has to be said, but Monero's privacy is better than Bitcoin. With Bitcoin silent payments, you are just obscuring a single step in a chain of transactions. Unless everybody uses silent payments, everyone can see where the money came from and where it went. Monero makes it impossible to see who received the currency and it's futile to try to determine who sent it based on the amount of possibilities. Unless privacy is on by default it's not going to work. See: Zcash
Correction: silent payments do obscure destinations and senders well, but if you don’t control at least one of the transactions inputs your privacy can be compromised by the sender. Silent payments still only obscure one hop in a transaction
> Monero's privacy is better than Bitcoin Wishful thinking won't mask your transactions, friend. Someone convinced you that publishing all of your transactions on a permanent blockchain is good for your privacy when it obviously isn't. Bitcoin leapfrogged way past monero six years ago when we created a payment channel network and stopped broadcasting all of our activity for the whole world to see. Catch up. Use lightning. Stop listing the sender, the recipient, and partial amount info in every transaction. Drop monero.
Have you taken anything from this entire argument? Please just read the Monero docs or look at a block explorer if you’re still confused
The block explorers are the whole problem bro. That's why we got rid of them. Learn the lesson. If you've got a block explorer, you've got a very serious privacy problem.
Every blockchain based cryptocurrency has a block explorer my guy. It’s just that with Monero you can’t see who’s sending money to who and how much
True, but the lightning network does not have a block explorer, so I recommend using that instead
Oh yeah and with monero, every transaction publishes a list including the sender, the recipient, and partial amount info (specifically, the fee paid). It's on every monero block explorer, go take a look.
Alright, since you don’t seem to be learning by people telling you the same fact and correcting you over and over, how about you learn by doing. I challenge you to trace the transactions associated with the #monero donation address in my bio. Good luck, you are going to need it. You’ll also need a quantum computer that doesn’t exist yet.
Not everything works like bitcoin. The address on the block explorer is a stealth address that is not the actual address of the wallet.
The wallet alone can spend from it. It's the wallet's address and no one else's.
Monero's blocks store public historical data that proves random strangers around the world transacted money following the rules and no one trusts each other but still can't cheat on each other. This sets a history of all-look-equal transactions that make up the current state of balances and histories that only key holders know the details, like what the hidden amounts are. A LN payment on the other hand is routed A -> B -> C with all amounts being visible from sender until it reaches the destination, now which privacy is better 1) all-look-equal txs with hidden amounts, or 2) plain text, amount visible, routed payments where A -> B -> C, but B can be a FED making public profiles?
Routing nodes do not know what amount is being transmitted. They only know the amount *they've* been asked to forward, they have no idea if that's the full amount. I don't know what persuaded monero guys that publishing their transactions is good for their privacy but it's an obvious problem that bitcoin fixes.
Monero guys believe in trusting no one, so with XMR I can only send a tx that 1) no one can stop from being mined 2) no one else knows the details. On LN nothing stops colluding routing nodes from creating a graph/profile of LN users and their activities and knowing the full amount transmitted, and nothing stops routing LN nodes from simply censoring certain senders/receivers on their route. Not good, we like privacy and censorship resistance above all, even if txs are "published", or permanent
Shootout to Super for going HAM on the monero crowd. Great work Super keep it up 💜 nostr:nevent1qqsd7nu5dze7jvl7ejfj9nmkhe54a3su8rqva6uf3k9c44539naxalqpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsygpps055wkzgr583ynaaj0zkej4ytel9gh8whr2jsj8esfflf9aew5psgqqqqqqs4vmvdl
Riiight. #nostr is for Bitcoiners only? #FreedomOfSpeech is for everyone. Plz continue to gargle Saylors balls. nostr:nevent1qqsgwy60y0znfv9xm4qwsun4pcw5lmrd6mcheucezm4ye9ma3fntvrqpremhxue69uhkummnw3ez6ur4vgh8wetvd3hhyer9wghxuet59upzptssprfrjv9hwmqcpyhka26pujcflnelq0ekgxcmfehw82skd4mqqvzqqqqqqyxxwalt
I am more in the Evelyn B. Hall camp and believe that "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." should be the order of the day.
That sounds fair.
Thinking folks need not have speech policed for them, and sovereign individuals are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves what constitutes truth.
This. Fuck Monero. Feel free to use it if you want. Nostr is for everyone.
I like Monero but this is the correct idea, if you don't like something don't use it, it's that simple. And yes Nostr is absolutely for everyone. 🤙💜
If monero was the better choice, there would be monero zapping on #nostr. No one is stopping that. And yet it doesn't exist. 🤔 nostr:nevent1qqsvjyd5puj68vw5ttcr7xcms90vgz5penw6dgkyradl3ttl4tq3g0cpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsygplwuxkt5a8vj5utj6s8tsj8e3wcavc45p4mqmw92qs7wrh5azmyspsgqqqqqqsavx5dv
This exists. There’s at least one Amethyst fork called Garnet that allows Monero zaps. https://github.com/retrnull/garnet 🤷♂️ The beauty of free and open sharing of code and ideas is that people will work towards whatever is best for them 🙂
(I haven’t used it and don’t have a dog in whatever debate is happening, but did hear about it so thought I’d share just FYI)
There is this web client as well. Both are very new though use cautiously. https://anarkio.codeberg.page/nostril/#/home/
I'm totally with you Derek.Ross we're here for Bitcoin and Nostr not any 💩 🪙🪙🪙 #God #Trump #Prayer #USA 🇺🇲 #BTC #Zap⚡ #Nostr #JulianAssangeIsFree 🔥
Open-source protocol for 100 sats please. nostr:nevent1qqsd20zswyqajm0f89k6mk5rmdydy5lsaqr6kzj3esfyjusrh6q2wqcpzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzv9hxgtczypgvtjvvescu48c77449g7hufj6gr9072cpafau8fg3pmwt9se7guqcyqqqqqqg8z0hc4
Bitcoin got rid of block explorers? Interesting.
> Bitcoin got rid of block explorers? Yes, we use lightning now. You should try it! Freedom from block explorers, dude! It's an amazing thing
stfu the VAST majority of people are using LN in a custodial, permissioned way. If they're gaining *any privacy which is highly debatable as the network has barely been stress tested it's the SAME financial privacy I get from a bank. so gtfo with your bullshit disingenuous "bitcoin fixed privacy" line
*AT LEAST* 80% of zaps and 94% of lightning addresses are custodial (Not even Bitcoin maxis can be bothered with painful UX of soveriegn LN!) Meaning it's not even theoretically private for the overwhelming majority of users. Sender, receiver, and amounts all visible to third parties by default. Big sad. Congratulations though if you're the 0.0001% who correctly jumped all 54 hoops that Super Testnet talks about 🥳 We all know if there is one thing that users love is when things are made as inconvenient as possible https://zapalytics.com/
It relates to the recipient. He alone has the private key. And it will show up on the blockchain again as a possible sender if he ever decides to send the money to someone. This is not deceptive; it is the truth about monero's transparent blockchain.
bullshit. and so disingenuous. so lets get this straight you're claiming there's some determalistic (or even some general probabilist method) that undermines monero privacy? Like, the adversity has 1/16th of a chance of correctly guessing the social graph over 1 transaction. 1/256th over 2tx hops 1/4096th over 3 etc and *even if you have additional information to identify the movement of an output in a tx, its broken over any previous/successive hops because a NEW doffie-helman exchange is made. so what's your fucking problem?
> you're claiming there's some determalistic (or even some general probabilist method) that undermines monero privacy? I'm not claiming that. But I think that's what this privacy expert claims: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s3EbSKDA3o > so what's your fucking problem? My problem is that monero people claim it is private while permanently publishing massive amounts of info about each of their transactions -- something lightning fixes, even though a few monero influencers like to ignore that.
If LN is private its because nobody is fucking looking. yet. you're talking like LN is a privacy solution when receiver privacy is shit and has been forever. sender privacy is complicated. the network is so centralized theres the risk your routing nodes can identify users sends. and you're dissing monero? for publishing a stealth address on chain?? which isnt "where the coins go" as you keep lying to people. LN is a brand new, untested Rube Goldberg machine. Its cool and I dig it. But you're lying to people when you try and sell it as strong privacy for digital exchange.
The reason lightning fixes it is because it bypasses the blockchain, defating the purpose of a cryptocurrency's security in the first place. Also, this video doesn't even seem to mention Monero (checking the transcript) and this video is 6 years old. Monero has changed a huge amount in 6 years
