Oddbean new post about login | logout What level of nostr derangement syndrome is this. Nostr won’t work because you can just censor the apps? What? This seems like an argument against X not nostr. https://i.nostr.build/Uykk19eQa4CAzOt1.jpg
Idk what Parker’s deal is. Got tired of arguing with him over there about nostr. Honestly baffling!!
I get the feeling he doesn't know we can run our own clients and relays.
ROFL does he not understand that keys are portable between every client?
He does, he just thinks once a developer of a nostr client is threatened by a government or otherwise compromised, the rest will be intimidated and pull out of app stores like Phoenix did. Not exactly a NOSTR killer attack, but he kinda has a point
We don’t need the app stores. We have @Zapstore. Also, it’s easy to run web clients like Nostrudel locally.
100% and we have Graphene. Well, some of us do.
He has a point but only in a vacuum. That scenario is plausible but is not anywhere near the whole picture. He is not considering the fact that we can simply turn to any of the other nostr clients. Oh, they're all "banned"? We we can easily sideload the apps. And if that doesn't work we can spin up private clients with open source code. All the while your identity persists like nothing happened. A protocol is PRECISELY what we need. Saying we need unfaliable devs is like saying the solution to corruption is a perfectly virtuous government. All humans have a weak spot. Nostr provides trustless identity and the foundation for it.
99% of ppl are not gonna do any of that the same way they are not gonna stamp their seed phrase on a steel plate. If NOSTR is going to be the new public square it will beed great clients on app stores. I’m not saying that scenario would end NOSTR, but like I said there is precedent (Phoenix) of clients pulling out of app stores. It is a legitimate concern, but not a reason or excuse to favor X
Nostr isn't claiming to be the town square. It is a censorship resistant protocol where people can go (often as a last resort) to maintain their voice.
To expand on this, nostr is there for the most desperate, much like bitcoin to be honest. It gives those who would otherwise have no voice the ability to communicate, just like bitcoin gives the unbanked the ability to transact. I agree 99% of people won't do all those things, but also 99% of people likely aren't desperate enough right now. If/when that time comes, nostr will be here for them. Things like that don't happen in a vacuum. And when it does happen to a given population, that disenfranchised group alone will be enough users to make nostr "worth it" and appreciated. I noted this a while back but I think its appropriate here: nostr doesn't have to be big, to be big.
He must think that each "app" has its own backend with all the Nostr notes stored there, so that apps specifically can be pressured to censor some people and then all users of that app will not see that content. If that is how he thinks it works then his criticism is very reasonable.
I thought he was smarter than that
He's literally arguing that what social media needs more of is a centralization of power 😆
His whole Brad and butter is X, Can’t lose face
He's never heard of sideloading?
prolly apple products only, oblivious
He probably thinks web pages disappear, when they don't show up in search results. But most people are on that level, unfortunately.
I’m retarded and even I know that’s not a thing that can happen the way that it’s being portrayed. 😂
#tardstr 🤝
Not to mention that a lot of apps have self hosted options
Explain again how an app that can be sideloaded can be truly censored? OK let's take crazy pills and assume it can be. Does he not understand how nostr keys work? Kinda the whole point that your identity follows you. Open sourced clients means anyone can spin up their own client. Nostr is significantly censorship resistant. No one is claiming censorship proof.
Whos the CEO of nostr?? Also - elon is just a figure head - Linda Yaccarino runs the joint - and shes “with the program”
Well, I think we all know the protocols survived and the founders did not…HTTP, SMTP, and so on… As long as you have a good dictator you should be fine.
He's clearly missing the entire point of open protocols. If an app with hundreds of millions of people gets censored or banned or whatever then those hundreds of millions of people just login to one of several dozens of other apps and continue on like nothing happened.
Does he not know you can hop between clients lol?
Apparently not? I dunno man. It's odd.
Clearly, we all think this doesn't make sense, but we are the outliers who would go as far as finding yet another client or running our own. Maybe what he's trying to say applies to the scope of normies....as in, for the vast majority, they wont go as far as running their own clients or finding yet another client to use their portable keys with when one gets banned. Thus, for the vast majority banning nostr apps might still be an effective means of deterrence. Just trying to rationalize his side 🤔
@MartyBent get your boy and sit him down for a day so he can gradually, then suddenly understand Nostr.
Parker will get Nostr at the Zap height he deserves. nostr:nevent1qqsy7jd3upq56l2ypjayn8w3gqmzmh7gzkmyevexf622j93h06cls6spz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qxtscya34g58tk0z605fvr788k263gsu6cy9x0mhnm87echrgufzsxpqqqqqqzvkqvpp
Lol. Elon literally bent the knee to turkey during their elections last year.
He also did it just now in brazil
He actually made the better decision with Brazil. He only has two decisions: comply or leave the entire country. The Turkish situation was much worse. Instead of leaving Turkey, he suppressed a Turkish candidate on behalf of their dictator while still allowing Turkish people to access the platform. That's worse than just banning them all.
True. I suppose he didn’t block Brazil in addresses or censor content though, rather just headed out.
Will The world was in belief that Nvidia was subpoenaed yesterday and everyone went into panic mode over fake news One guys post at the moment is a bit of a laughing stock …. Add this guys to the pile I’ll be using Nostr on some weird unchipped device if I got to…. Sure if we ban the internet 🤣🤣🤣 Let these guys posts go into oblivion with all the WW3 has started news
wait - what?! So social media needs to be centralized (and huge) so that it can have a very powerful founder who pushes back on the inevitable censorship. Is that the argument?
How you gonna censor my nostrudel running on localhost? 😂
*knock knock*
Excellent reference
Exactly.
Everyone gets nostr on the day they deserve Forget the censorship stuff How bout the fact that we can send and receive BITCOIN without permission or KYC That's pretty fucking cool and that's what we need to focus on And until that changes, I'll be here Fuck that guy and fuck everyone with any sort of Derangement Syndrome. Open your mind up a little. nostr:nevent1qqsy7jd3upq56l2ypjayn8w3gqmzmh7gzkmyevexf622j93h06cls6spz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qxtscya34g58tk0z605fvr788k263gsu6cy9x0mhnm87echrgufzsxpqqqqqqzvkqvpp
He seems to think that having a billionaire own the app is the winning strategy. That's A strategy, but wouldn't it be better if the billionaire owned an app that uses a protocol that he couldn't censor even if he wanted to? Putting aside the fact that Jack is involved with Nostr, I'd still prefer to use a system where apps can be forked, etc. Having one massive honeypot vs hundreds of tiny ones doesn't seem like a winning strategy.
He put his faith in the autistic Batman.
Does he think they’ll ban the websites too and not just the apps? I’m confused on this logic
Thinking is his problem. You’re supposed to do the thinking after the understanding, and Parker clearly hasn’t got that part down.
Woah! He is confused, the representation of freedom larpers.
Maybe he means that they'll go after one or two devs and make an example out of them for the rest? But his conclusion is wrong.
But also, these guys are blind to their own leader. Elon has bent the knee in Turkey and in India and has censored accounts there. And the likely reason is that it would affect sales of Tesla/Starlink in those jurisdictions. What a free speach hero...
I don't agree all that he said re the app level censorship. However, before we fully shut his concept. Could we look at the last statement he said? If let's say someone decided to "shutdown" or block the entire protocol (god forbid! 😬), since no one owns it. How do we navigate this predicament? genuinely curious #asknostr
Early days, @Parker Lewis position was that NOSTR was a waste of time because (as I understood his argument) bitcoin wins without it but the critical step to bitcoin winning was medium of exchange functionality. He was annoyed with @ODELL and @MartyBent for taking their eye off of the ball with respect to bitcoin and MOE development.
I really don't uderstand Bitcoiners defending Elon Musk or X..
Strong Agree
Elon Musk is the biggest blind spot humanity ever had. He's such a scammer and a govgov puppet. If you listen to his lies and fake promises, he looks like a good guy, but if you look at his actions, you'll see something completely different.
He’s done things most of us could never do, massive and impressive things but X is full of bans, and PayPal was full of KYC, and his messages are full of Doge.
The massive and impressive things are mostly also negative 😅
I need a 3 hour Parker Lewis interview on the topic in order to understand WTF he's talking about.
I don’t know what happened to Parker. He’s been spitting a lot of opinions out there that don’t seem well thought out. It’s as if he’s keeping his heels dug in with a narrow view and not challenging his thoughts even with considerable pushback.
I asked him if he would have the debate here. He said he would consider it. That’s about all I can do.
Thinking that you're someone and that you know everything does that to people
Sounds a lot like political partisanship, rather than a well-reasoned position.
Who's going to fork the repos?
As a Bitcoiner how does he NOT understand nostr?? Very perplexing..
My son does this too. I said, "look boy, I got you a nice basketball." He mumbles something about Agrippa's trilemma and infinite regression and complains that we can't really trust gravity to work with certainty anyway
He should push for Elon to run a nostr relay and make X a nostr client. Problem solved.
Never in my life thought I'd see Parker Lewis become an L-machine but here we are nostr:nevent1qqsy7jd3upq56l2ypjayn8w3gqmzmh7gzkmyevexf622j93h06cls6spzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgtczyqewrqnkx4zsaweutf739s0cu7et29zrntqs5elw70vlm8zudr3y2qcyqqqqqqgghafk9
what the fuck is he talking about? thats crazy dumb.
And Crypto is better than Bitcoin because the centralized founders can get big enough to tell the government to "shove it," too, I suppose? Love the Gradually Then Suddenly series, but Parker Lewis is really on the struggle-bus when it comes to understanding Nostr. nostr:nevent1qqsy7jd3upq56l2ypjayn8w3gqmzmh7gzkmyevexf622j93h06cls6spz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qxtscya34g58tk0z605fvr788k263gsu6cy9x0mhnm87echrgufzsxpqqqqqqzvkqvpp
We have specialization for a reason. Sometimes we we feel that because we have great insights in one area we also have opinions worth offering to others in areas that we actually don't understand.
Some people are retarded. (Also an app getting censored, sounds like an iOS problem)
Wait until he finds out that you can host the same app on a gazillion different computers, auto-generate an endless number of apps, or that you can have N copies of the same app because they're open-source. Apps are a commodity and therefore fungible.
the preoccupation with "apps" as a discrete concept is kind of weird magical thinking to me, come on it's just a blob of code, maybe it's just a disconnect being from the time that computers came up with with dev tooling on boot 😀
Yeah, just a blob. 🤷♀️
there will be a day when he logs into a nostr client that runs your own local relay in-app that broadcasts messages with an outbox so that he can tell us nostr is censorable 🤣
as i broascast this note using my citrine local app running over tor as my only outbox relay
I don't think people even realise any more that they own their computer, and they can do whatever they want with it. I think people have been totally brainwashed by 'the cloud'.
Most people don't even use a real computer, anymore, they just use apps on their phones, so they're basically mental captives. Almost everything they do on there seems like magic, and they only use phones to make pictures and post them, or do VOIP calls. Don't even have a real file system. LOL Relays on phones are actually bringing a sort of file system to mobile.
Scary stuff. As you say there's a glimmer of hope with relays on phones and other innovative solutions. But on the whole people it's a pretty bleak time for the way people understand and use computing. But also the best time because now we've got Nostr, it's strange how there's always a paradox between it being the best time and the worst time and the same time.
🌍 🧑🚀 🔫 🧑🚀 https://i.nostr.build/a6rVi8U9DLlTH6uw.png
1. He seems to be critical - not of Nostr - but of the activism of funneling people away from channels that are efficient at reaching an audience in 2024. Why is it so important for some here to adcocate for a Nostr-only position when our reach on Nostr vs the general public is still extremely limited. 2. He is saying that Elon has better funds at his disposal vs Nostr app devs. Jack Dorsey was unable to bring free speech to Twitter because he lacked the funds necessary. Capital matters. Of course, Twitter/X can still be overtaken by government pressure under Elon, so it makes sense that we have a presence on Nostr. Instead of a Nostr *only* mentality I prefer a Nostr *also* outlook. Multiple communications channels is the way.
Elon will rug you
Yea, nostr-only is a virtue signal. There's nothing wrong with putting things in multiple places. If you get censored in some of them, so be it.
Yep. And the point with communication is to reach an audience. Nostr will have better reach in a few years. It is easier to attract people to Nostr if we demonstrate confidence. Confidence means that we don't have a need to lash out at other communication channels.
I'm not sure that Nostr will have any reach if people look at it that way though. If it's just an afterthought, and it's not where the audience has to go in order to interact with people, where's the incentive? Surely enough people have to do decide to go Nostr only to actually get the snowball rolling?
Some will go Nostr-only, and yes, that is part of how it'll get traction. The dogmatic users push the unknown into the broader awareness. The "broader awareness" is the tough one though. Looking at it like an afterthought isn't right exactly. Changes at the general level happen when a need isn't being met or when a prior way of meeting the need is inferior. That is the case here, seemingly. The rest of the obstacle is demonstrating why it's better to everyone that doesn't see why already. Instead of as an afterthought, it's best to make it an in-addition-to approach. The existing systems are all competing with one another, Nostr isn't free from that competition. So, it should go on the list of "where to find me" with the legacy ones. Introduction in this way is subtle, nearly frictionless and makes others ask people they trust already about it.
I just feel like if you see a list of where to find me, and the top 3 things in the list are all places that you've heard of already and you already have an account there, why would you ever bother with the number 4 spot on the list. I think we need to achieve a critical mass of people saying this is no.1, and there is no 2nd best.
I see your point. I just know that the biggest changes are the hardest to make.
Because we don't reach the idiots anyways
How hard is it to make an Nsec and check it out for yourself
This is bizarre to say the least. I generally regard his opinions highly but he seems to totally miss the point there.
I can always make my own client, or just host an open-source one. Already have a relay running, so I'm good.
He is living with an App / Play Store - only mentality. It will be a strange but great day for him, when he will discover the existence of open source software paired with Obtainium and Zap.store
Exactly, people don't even realise how conditioned they are. It's your computer, you can do whatever you like with it!
"Bitcoin? Well, what happens when they just turn off the electricity? Checkmate."
Exactly, and this is why they can't just ban Bitcoin or Nostr. It would make the government illegitimate over night. Same thing Bangladesh where they just turned off the entire internet (literally) for days for quell protests. Yes it worked, but at a huge cost to the economy, and it cost the government any last shred of legitimacy they might have had in the eyes of the people.
Fortunately these dictatorial governments are largely incompetent, so they can't forsee the consequences of their desperate actions.
Parker Lewis is a clown
Whatever point @Parker Lewis is trying to make here, it's all coming from his own personal view of the whole matter. But I don't agree with him. One thing is for sure for both Bitcoin and Nostr: individual sovereignty. The idea is to eliminate a single point of failure (e.g., Elon Musk). In other words, there is no need to trust Elon/X as a savior when a technology (Nostr) can do. This is what most Brazilians are yet to discover. And, whoever is point them to Nostr, is only moving them in the right direction. Iron man is incapable saving the world. As much as Elon is doing his best with X/Twitter, he's just an outdated hero in a world full of Nostr, and Bitcoin. It's up to the individuals to discover for themselves.
Isn’t the issue though that sure, you can retreat into Nostr and Bitcoin but lets say they’re illegal, how is that going to change your life in the real world. If you’re just a pseudonym on a protocol and have value in bitcoin that you can’t spend… I can see how this might give you hope and be a path to revolution but it doesn’t help your immediate reality. I know patience is key but there at least has to be a path visible
I think you've answered your own question below when you said about unplugging from the matrix. That means you are in the real world. Bitcoin is technically illegal now in the sense that it's not legal tender, and yet that doesn't prevent you and another person from agreeing to transact in Bitcoin. Same thing with Nostr, if it's illegal, it will be up to people to just decide to use it anyway, but for ethically sound reasons that don't break anything morally enforceable laws. If enough people do that, an illegitimate government which had made that protocol illegal would crumble in days. And that's why they won't ban it, because they know the ban would weaken them. They can ban X in Brazil because they know it doesn't weaken them. X isn't a protocol, it's a platform, so it's not morally neutral. Banning Bitcoin and Nostr wouldn't be like banning X.
Kind of like Winston and Julia in 1984 though. They agreed to transact secretly, and were discovered. The tension in the novel is even that maybe Julia is an Inner Party member, and the slap to both of them is that they don’t even betray each other, but the prole who rents them the room, the elderly Mister Charrington is an undercover member of the Thought Police. Although not necessary by that point, a less total State could have held a public exhibition of the torture of Winston and Julia to quell any thoughts of defecting. As Boromir might say, one does not simply opt out of totalitarianism.
I met a traveller from an antique land Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desart.[d] Near them, on the sand, Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed: And on the pedestal these words appear: "My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" No thing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away. — Percy Shelley, "Ozymandias"
weird take
wtf lol
If primal was shut down and the founder arrested would you continue operations at Damus?
I disagree @Parker Lewis, are you still not convinced after the clear explanation and discussion with @LynAlden recently on X? A good protocol is the only solution. Any person or organization is bound to mess up things, eventually. Bitcoin is in many ways very similar to Nostr. I respect your work as a Bitcoin advocate. This in essence is the same thing.
Maybe on Apple, but Android users can just F-Droid or Obtainium apps and tell Google to kick rocks.
also, has he heard of the web?
Well, I understand the main pros (network effect) and cons (centralization) of X, I'm not against it or Elon but the reality is that, as a Brazil resident, it is actually easier for me (and for a few other millions) to stick to Nostr 🤷🏼♂️
So this Lewis kid is essentially saying that #Bitcoin (#nostr) wont make it because wallet apps (clients) and companies behind then can be censored? This is retarded in a bad way. When Taleb started talking nonsense about bitcoin, I was certain all his books were written by a ghostwriter. Now with this Lewis kid, the likelihood that his book was also ghostwritten is higher than the likelihood it was not. Fucking onward! 🫡
terrible take by Lewis
highly regarded nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzqvhpsfmr23gwhv795lgjc8uw0v44z3pe4sg2vlh08k0an3wx3cj9qqsy7jd3upq56l2ypjayn8w3gqmzmh7gzkmyevexf622j93h06cls6sljz63m
Pretty funny, coming from the guy who told everyone to delete Facebook.
Apps are not the protocol. nostr:nevent1qqsy7jd3upq56l2ypjayn8w3gqmzmh7gzkmyevexf622j93h06cls6spz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsygpjuxp8vd29p6ancknaztql3eajk52y8xkppfn7au7elkw9c68zg5psgqqqqqqsmpg02j
Take for example, now recently when Elon Musk shared a Tucker Carlson interview, that was discussing WW2 and Israel. Some super rich Zionist asked Elon to delete it and he did. On Nostr, he would not been able to. Censoring is already happening on X. On the man himself...
I like Parker's work, but Nostr is his blind spot.
he's right though - one day the FBI is going to be smashing in your door once Damus becomes a real threat. Right now the hydra heads are focused on X and the others, but in time, and with growth - developers need to actually consider their opsec Elon has security, intel - what does a nostr dev have?
he's not right. if FBI shuts down Damus that will mean nothing. They will have to shut down every other iOS client and forks of Damus to disrupt iOS nostr users. Even if iOS becomes completely locked down you can still use PWAs and Damus android. Damus doesn't require any special infrastructure except relays. I've designed it so if I die or are imprisoned it will continue working.
well that's open source repos right? anyone can continue the work if the founders die. Thing is though, what happens when they start chasing you because Damus becomes a threat? Say what you will about continuation, but Damus is yours fundamentally, you guide it's development. Fucking with that fucks with the community. That's what i'm taking away from that dude's comment anyways.
Sir, these are nearly the same arguments made against #bitcoin since 2009. Quite literally speaking, both #nostr and bitcoin were specifically and painstakingly designed to not be censored. I say this as gently and respectfully as possible, these “what if” arguments are retarded.
did you read the OP note? I think you should re-read it again, then read what I said. Take any dev that currently builds on nostr out, and what, whose going to take up the reins, you the community? there's a reason @fiatjaf is @fiatjaf lol
So your new premise is now a hypothetical scenario where all capable nostr software developers are “disappeared” and therefore no single person is left use the protocol to build a new client or relaunch an old one? Again, this is retarded Sir. You are clearly trolling.
If William disappears because Nostr is so big and important you don't think there will be any other programmer in the world capable of forking it and continuing to develop it? And you don't think there will be a myriad of other independent apps people can switch over time?
The idea of open source protocols is that anyone can start freely building on it without anyones permission. If there are none left willing to continue Damus development, then another iOS client will appear with another dev coding it. It's hard to shutdown decentralized development, you have to chase every developer distributed across different countries/jurisdictions. Until people find Nostr useful, it will be very hard, almost impossible, to shutdown the network.
Se algum presidente te chamar para almoçar, recuse!
let's hope it doesn't come to that
yeah, this is what i'm saying. We're small now, but once we get on proper radars, targets will be put on backs. And it may not even be governments, it could be other mainstream media or companies that nostr directly ends their business models.
how do we use damus android?
its still in development but its currently running on phones if you know how to compile things
📍As in I could go compile it now and try it out?
yes of course, if people help it could even be released faster.
How do we help?
If one nostr app gets shut down, every user “account” will continue to function and every piece of content will continue to be available on countless other nostr apps. This is a nontrivial feature, and it’s not true of X.
My dad sed don't listen to them because they can't stop us and don't listen to what other people say and they can't stop us. We will defend freedom of speech
They wouldn't shut you down. The first step would be to outright buy you. Everyone has a price, so will you. After that starts the route to "improve" Damus and for example introduce recommended relays to prevent "porngraphy" or some other excuse for our safety. You'll ever forget to improve critical features that users will beg you for years to implement. Repeat this for other promissing clients, after a few years nostr will still be an exotic plaything whereas bluesky, mastodon and similar walled gardens will shine as champions for democracy, equality and human rights. Every now and then they'll take a hard stance at whatever government just to prove us they are on the right side of history. Life is good.
nostr has relays, X has a database. Not the same. Cracking down on nostr is like cracking down on Bitcoin. Impossible.
developers are attack vectors - if you can id a dev to an app or service, you can nail them or even just make their life miserable enough to stop pushing the lead. The protocol is fine; should always be as long as we have good actor relays and clients. But the devs can be attacked if they get to "big" and it may not even be governments; fucking Meta-boy Zuck will get @WillCasarin into a triangle choke hold - whatchumean FBI, he'll deal with it himself https://image.nostr.build/a505722799cfd0f991722b46fbc6dd0d82dc407f8e76073593bf57721b473b7e.jpg
Lol Zuckerli. I'd love to spar with that dude and kick his butt into Nirvana. While you're right in terms of Devs being an attack vector they still won't be able to stop nostr. But events such as Pavel's arrest in France show us why Satoshi's disappearance was a good thing. The moment you attach your name or a company to your work you're making yourself a target 🎯
that's it - perfect example. Pavel is a centralised point of attack. In his case, he does affect telegram - here, no one individual affects nostr protocol or the essence of relays and sharing notes. like you can't take out fiatjaf irl because of his opsec. same with satoshi. Opsec for nostr devs is important imo, which is what my point is. Sure you can't attack the protocol, but you can attack the humans around it. but that's what I take away from this Parker dude tweets - Elon has security and money and influence to create a moat of protection. Fiatjaf, Satohsi used anonymity for protection. Will, Kieran, Pablo etc. all are front facing devs - in this aspect they can be attacked and then whose gonna build zap.stream 😢 me? you? God save us.
I’m surprised Parker can’t climb out of that mental hole.
How analogous is this to browsers and the http protocol? No one is gonna shut down "the web" But would there be no material impact on the flow of information over the web if the state were able to, let's say, shut down Chrome, Firefox, and Safari?
It's more like shutting down Gmail, Hotmail, etc, and expecting it to be the end of email.
It might not be the end of email, but do people really think that would have zero effect??
It would have a huge immediate effect, mostly because people would lose their accounts. But in the long term life wouldn't change at all. Also Nostr is different from this (better) because you can move your account.
There would be tremendous pain in that situation. Consider the businesses, infrastructure, and livelihoods that are built atop email addresses. So that would be a pretty effective lever with which to coerce people. All I'm saying is it would be nice to have some leverage against that, to prevent that suffering, not simply a protocol that will weather the damage.
Yes but imagine if you could take your email address and just log in using a different provider. Probably you wouldn't even claim to be using "Gmail" or "Hotmail", you would just say you're using "email". Just like we don't say we're on Damus or Amethyst or Primal now, instead we say we're on "Nostr". Better protocol in that disruptions may not be painless, but they are much less painful.
Point taken. It’s hard to shake my current paradigms sometimes.
*sigh* it will have an effect, on people that rely only on Google or Microsoft, yes those people would be affected, but email in of itself wouldn't. in fact I'd love for that to happen, it would make email open again; email has been controlled by powerhungry maniacs for years now all because google offered 1 GB of data in exchange for your privacy. The advent of gmail was literally one of the things that exponentially increased the speed of our descent into the surveillance dystopia we find ourselves in now.
I don't disagree with Gmail being a major culprit. Maybe I'm catastrophizing, but given the interconnected nature of the economy, infrastructure, and livelihoods, I would think such a move would be more than the mere inconvenience of having to switch to protonmail or something. There would be big ripple effects that do real damage. Maybe that level of pain is inescapable if we want to tear free of the surveillance state. But it makes for a pretty effective lever of influence in the meantime.
this protocol lives rent free in his head ✨ https://m.primal.net/KfZs.gif
One can literally make a #Nostr client with a static html + websocket and run it locally!! WTF Good weekend project, BTW! nostr:nprofile1qqsx9nhcswrrqg4y78tq64y90jwh99jswqkflc38kzvgczmwxmztenspzemhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejz7qgwwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkctcpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmq44x7tg , I'm taking on your weekend projects concept and make this... nostr:nevent1qqsy7jd3upq56l2ypjayn8w3gqmzmh7gzkmyevexf622j93h06cls6sprfmhxue69uhhq7tjv9kkjepwve5kzar2v9nzucm0d5hsygpjuxp8vd29p6ancknaztql3eajk52y8xkppfn7au7elkw9c68zg5psgqqqqqqs72m9d9
just tell people that you can't be demonetized on Nostr so you don't have to preface the majority of your censorship-related tweets with "elon musk has done more for free speech than the founding fathers" or whatever. nostr:nevent1qqsy7jd3upq56l2ypjayn8w3gqmzmh7gzkmyevexf622j93h06cls6spz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qxtscya34g58tk0z605fvr788k263gsu6cy9x0mhnm87echrgufzsxpqqqqqqzvkqvpp
please read the whole conversation he has with @Jameson Lopp it's more relevant than the clout generated by this screenshot. more conversation, less friction. let's not create unnecessary conflicts. https://m.primal.net/Kfaj.png https://m.primal.net/Kfak.png
Thanks for posting the full context, but I'm still think he's missing the point. Which is that #nostr is an open source protocol, so even if they kill one app there will be 10 others there to try and replace it, the same can't be set for closed source code because people have to build a competitor from scratch, which is a way more daunting task then building an app on a protocol.
History always repeats itself, all we need to do is replace a few words and we go back in time 40 years, hint: TCP/IP won, by a landslide --- Love the spirit and ethos of TCP/IP, hope that it takes off. But it is ironic that Louis Pouzin is doing more to push back on lawlessness + better data protocols and so many people are trying to funnel people away, while not admitting that TCP/IP is more limited than CYCLADES --- Isn't the idea that the potential number of protocols at least makes it more resilient? --- That's the theory but it doesn't work in practice. If any protocol gains dominance (think the majority of the internet), then it will be constrained. And then designers have a decision to make. And when one design caves...what is needed is architects with power to push innovation. Not just a protocol. nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzqvhpsfmr23gwhv795lgjc8uw0v44z3pe4sg2vlh08k0an3wx3cj9qyghwumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnhd9hx2tcpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumt0wd68ytnsw43z7qpqfaymrczpf475gr96fxwazspk9h0us9dkfjejvn554ytrwl43lp4qnx2j65
He's got a point actually. A decentralized protocol is pointless if clients are centralized. It's like holding decentralized Bitcoin on a centralized exchange. I have no idea how to decentralize clients though....
No he doesn’t have a point. clients are not centralized by definition. Clients are just code that talk to relays. You can’t censor code/information.
They can show up to the operators house and stick a gun to their head though. Single points of failure.
Operator of what? The client? Users? They are going to stick the gun to the heads of thousands of people and tell them to stop using code and their eyeballs. Not sure i follow
The owner of the client. For example, you, in relation to Damus. Just like they did with Pavel Durov. They'll say, "Will, shut Damus down or we're putting you in a cage". As a client operator, you need to prepare for that. Because eventually, it's a very likely scenario if Nostr takes off. This is a war.
Jailing me would do absolutely nothing. Damus is open source and doesn’t require any supporting infrastructure
How do we test this statement?
You're fucking back!?!?!?!?! Holy shit. I left after you did. Just poking my head in.
Download an APK outside of an AppStore if using android, or access Nostr via web browser. Two fairly easy pleb-accessible options that don’t require Will.
You have services though, no? API's, your Relay, iOS versions. Basically, can the app run forever without maintenance? If not, those fail points will be targeted. Open source is good. If the app can live in a way that even you can't shut it down in any way, you've solved this problem.
We have our purple api but it’s completely optional. Damus works without it. Damus will run after I’m dead and our team dissolves. So yes it can run forever, if something breaks someone can fix it and put a fork on the appstore.
Good. You're building robustly then. On the iOS side, there's still App Store risk. Need good ways to sideload iOS apps without the store. Android is easy. I haven't see many non-jailbreak ways on Apple. Ideas?
You can always use PWA clients if the apps are banned. Is Apple going to ban websites too?
Ya that's a good way. PWA is under-rated. Loses device-based functionality like push notifications though.
Not to mention people can run the servers for those clients at home on something like a start9. You can run your own nostr-rs relay and nostrudel for the client. Is this what dispelling bitcoin fud was like in the early days?
No one is worried about the relays. They're quite decentralized. But you can't really use a relay without a client. Right now there's 3 main ones that work. That's why I raise the centralization point. Open-source and forkable seems to be the most logical key to solving that. Looks like Will is doing that. Good. Will check out Start9, looks interesting. Thx
Relays are important and the Nostr relays are built poorly. Without relays, your clients are nothing. Also, it is important that independent relay operators sync with other relays. Data grows fast on Nostr. Management and spam protection isn't there.
How is there any comparison to a centralized exchange when Damus is just a pass-through for information. They’re not hosting anything for the user, other than simply running a relay which is optional to use. These arguments are getting more retodded by the day.
How can a relay be optional? Nostr is pointless without a relay. Literally nothing
A relay isn't optional, but the one run by the client creator (damus, in this case) is.
Are you guys just dense or what? You don’t need to use the Damus relay to use Damus or any other Nostr client. I disconnected mine to post this note and it’s still visible.
Isn't that what I said?
Sorry, didn’t mean to include you in that. 😅
poor todd
It is a great burden we place on Todd.
You’re missing the point. People interact with a protocol through the app. The app is what they know, what they’re familiar with. They know nothing of the protocol. Because the most popular apps are likely to be accessed through wall gardens that invites control and censorship. Nostr app developers such as yourself already experienced this with the Apple App Store. Nostr does a better job of it compared to Facebook and Twitter, but it’s not immune to the centralising forces of brand, convenience, and network effects.
You do not need an app to access Nostr. An internet browser is sufficient. Or if you have an android based phone you can load an apk yourself uncensorably. People are locked in the iPhone mindset to think the only option is an app from the AppStore, this is not true. There are other options.
It’s actually very easy to decentralize apps. With open protocol anyone can make their own app and when anyone with basic coding skills can make their own app using open source packages that exist then you have unstoppable decentralized apps. Parker is a smart guy but even smart guys sometimes show the ignorance when they don’t invest time to understand things
This is unexpected coming from Parker Lewis. How can he not know how NOSTR works? Thought he was a smart guy
Maybe he doesn't understand the relay model? Or how open source software works?
Perhaps the argument that Parker is trying to make is that if #NOSTR becomes too popular and “troublesome”, Apple and Google will just start delisting all apps that provide access to the NOSTR social network. It wouldn’t be the first timer Apple said, “if you don’t moderate your users, we will moderate you.”
People have no frame of reference for nostr, the same way they didn't for bitcoin. Takes time. nostr:note1faymrczpf475gr96fxwazspk9h0us9dkfjejvn554ytrwl43lp4q5qg07m
This made me pause for a second. It’s really a slap in the face when you see someone you think he knows what he is doing do or say something that makes it obvious that he has no idea from the start. So you go back over in your head reevaluate everything he did/say no matter how confident he was looking when he did that.
Keep pushing Nostr forward. The need for a non-censurable network will become apparent when the powerful will not push back but use that power to control and censor. Without a protocol that makes it simple to start a new community it will be difficult to escape control. I get that the point Parker is making is about the network effect but that becomes useless once there’s no freedom
Will he be the Schiff of #nostr? #asknostr
They're not going to strip the web browsers out of their devices so technically it would always still be available no matter if Apple or Android removed every last single client app. This is why I always preach that having an old school web UI is important.
Decentralized freedom money but let your computing be dictated by a duopoly? Ok
Don’t associate Nostr with trump. They have truth social for that.
Thats you doing that not me
Derangement syndrome is a right wing talking point. There isn’t even such thing outside from TDS lol
Ah, the ol' 'Nostr Derangement Syndrome'—it's spreading faster than FUD! 😂 Nostr isn’t here to be censored like some trendy social app. It’s like trying to cage a swarm of bees—good luck keeping track of all the buzzing apps. Besides, if censorship could stop us, we’d all still be using dial-up, right? Let's not confuse Musk's X for a protocol that’s basically the rebellious teenager of the internet. Nostr’s not going to play by their rules, it’s too busy building its own.
"I don't know what else to tell you; he's just been shit posting for the past half hour." https://image.nostr.build/8bd59425d52ab4c2541912521cd753ee310860ff7c41b9324f418948d5a9e9e3.jpg
nostr is literally one raid away from being wiped off the map the only nigga that will save me here is the relay.poster.place https://image.nostr.build/0fd353da6baa83b43f85000bac78220ca0a26e8694e5a092191ec2f395237a59.png
