Oddbean new post about login | logout Wait until he finds out that you can host the same app on a gazillion different computers, auto-generate an endless number of apps, or that you can have N copies of the same app because they're open-source. Apps are a commodity and therefore fungible.
the preoccupation with "apps" as a discrete concept is kind of weird magical thinking to me, come on it's just a blob of code, maybe it's just a disconnect being from the time that computers came up with with dev tooling on boot 😀
Yeah, just a blob. 🤷♀️
Literally. 🤣
in a way, the entire field of anti-virus software is testament to just how difficult software is to censor 😅
If you're a #dev and this thought bothers you, you might want to rethink your life choices. nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzphtxf40yq9jr82xdd8cqtts5szqyx5tcndvaukhsvfmduetr85ceqydhwumn8ghj7argv4nx7un9wd6zumn0wd68yvfwvdhk6tcpr3mhxue69uhhg6r9vd5hgctyv4kzumn0wd68yvfwvdhk6tcqypdzpjqnt78sy3z32tjnmsn4qs0cfgund27744n7p6catl8w8279ym0k2uy
Choices out of bothering are made with the head hot. Let it cold a lil, upset dev
the other day i opened coinmarketcap, and i thought one day there will be more Nostr apps than listed tokens, moment lol
We are all going to have our own suite of custom apps and it's going to be 🔥. The dev talent is going to wander over to app-generators. Don't need to use the same apps, if the data (including user settings!) are standardized and stored in events. Then apps are just more-or-less event viewers. Once paper and pen became cheap enough, the only thing of value was the words being written.
In the future, you would either need to: 1) build something so sprawling or complex, that AI would have trouble copying it because of the QA, architecture, and maintenance involved 2) build something that is meant to be used as part of a larger suite, including services and communities 3) build a specialized-app generator 4) take up golfing
https://i.nostr.build/xbNCej5Fz14onLUU.jpg
nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzphtxf40yq9jr82xdd8cqtts5szqyx5tcndvaukhsvfmduetr85ceqydhwumn8ghj7argv4nx7un9wd6zumn0wd68yvfwvdhk6tcpr3mhxue69uhhg6r9vd5hgctyv4kzumn0wd68yvfwvdhk6tcqypc8yza6me9fned8lzlmhu3z0gjh386apte6j48wwuzyp678kf5rcuf24p4
I wouldn't run a relay if I had no say in what is going through it. Is that what is being said here, or am I misunderstanding?
Same for the client actually, assuming this means I'm subject to whatever someone else decides without my client having options for me.
I'm saying that the only thing the user owns, is the data and application/relay settings stored in events. If they keep it in events, then they can move from relay to app, and have the same setup, everywhere. So, you would choose your relay based upon service, including whether they honor what is in your events. For instance, @cloud fodder allows me to use my npub's lists (mute, follows, favorites, etc.) to determine who is allowed to use my private relay. I edit those lists and click a button in relay.tools and it updates the blocks/allows. That means I could have 15 different relays, from different providers and/or self-hosted, and they'd all have the same settings, if I choose. Or I could have a set of lists by topic and have a book club relay, a Christian chat relays, a dev relay, etc. Filter.wine does something similar with WoT. It is controlled by the changes to your follow list. I house the relay and app settings within my events.
What AI+FOSS does is end the concept of the Killer App, where you just code some blob, sell the rights to Microsoft, and walk away a gazillionaire. You will now actually have to add concrete value and do real labour. There has to be some reason I keep going back to This One Person, and that won't be the app. Make Software Development Work Again.
... while at the other end, howeer, most of the AI stuff still is owned by huge corporations that are able to afford the hardware and operation skills to handle AI. In my environment, this has even more pushed moving to the cloud, most specifically Azure as they also host GPT and similar models in European datacenters which eases pain of those who always wanted to take that step but feld hindered so far by GDPR obligations.🙈
Yes, Nostr is going to trash that model, by making the training data and embeddings public.
Waiting for that, still though unsure to see that coming at some point. Especially in a way so to disrupt business of OpenAI, Microsoft and "friends".
They're already getting crushed by the running costs necessary for AI, especially data storage, analysis, and energy. They're trying to get the processors cheaper, since that's the easiest pressure point, hence the recent NVIDIA crash. Nostr distributes all of those costs. Since your server doesn't have to do all analysis for everyone, but only cater to your own use case and your own data set, and can run asynchronously -- results periodically updating a data file on the server or generating an event for your (private) relay-- it's relatively cheap and you can buy one of the older or less-powerful GPUs for $700-$1500, or just run it on your gaming PC. We literally just listed the embedding spec in the NIP repo this week, and you've already lost patience. 😅 Like, give us at least a year, okay? https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/blob/master/README.md
https://www.heise.de/news/Sprach-KI-selber-betreiben-c-t-uplink-9326997.html
As they say, in this German discussion, you can direct the AI to integrate your own data set into the prompt. You don't necessarily have to train the AI directly. But even training will quickly be possible on smaller machines.
Yes, I know (this is what I kind of do most of my days - that integration of own data sets into prompts and responses, talking RAG and all). Still, though, I wonder whether / how Nostr will fit in here. So far, we see these two tendencies of companies / customers either opting for Microsoft Azure / OpenAI - to push cloud migration strategies they had in mind for ages but no chance to get done - or waiting for smaller, local models they can run on-prem with an acceptable amount of hardware. Still, though, with the out-of-the-box approach, using this kind of stuff in Azure is extremely attractive with all of the "features" it offers combined so this is hard to address for a lot of people.
Azure carries the burden of generalism. We can have n different models running on n different servers addressing n different user bases. They went straight to the centralized AI because that fits their centralized storage and corporate structure, but we have distributed storage and lots of smaller project teams. We can also have some teams build models in the cloud and then open-source them. It's not all worked out yet, but I think this is the direction it's headed.
We could come up with an open-source version of the Azure bundle, but based upon relays and events. With a self-hosted or professionally-hosted variation. I could see relay operators and media server operators moving in that direction. It's going to be the age of backend developers and sys admins, I think.
They should probably get together with the DVM/AI-CI guys and come up with System DVMs, that give you a custom package or interface to configure, with a nice wizard, or something. Most people would probably start out hosted and then eventually try to run one, themselves, or do the computation-heavy stuff hosted and the rest self-hosted. Or whatever. LOL No idea.
Wen Nostr #AI bundle? nostr:note1wad8d68jl865fg9zrntvd9awhu8nzhpw3phewh6eerwrd05vpdssndl6xv
I mean, it starts with really "no duh" applications, like my media server allowing me to tag 20 selfies I've uploaded, and then use them as a basis for generating AI pics. But what about a community that has a private relay, where they've pulled in or created a bunch of events related to the same topic, and want to tune or prompt an AI to search through their data set. Where is that AI? Is it an add-on service to the relay, from their hosting service? Or is it self-hosted and the relay operator lets them plug it in? Or they self-host everything? Or can they plug in one from the media service provider, that they've been using to digitalize their document images of old books?
And, like, would it be possible to somehow come up with a Standard Nostr Model, that is specialized for events and relays? Does that even make sense or is the data storage system irrevelant to the model?
We have thousands of people and bots, here, that could label data.
One of those bots were alive in wss://nfrelay.app already publishing NIP-32 labelling event 😄 nak req -k 1985 wss://nfrelay.app Free labels to be used.
Been seeing those around, yeah. I think there's a couple of label bots running around. 😅
@Tagr-bot might be the popular one . The report is clearly visible due to kind 1984 usage 😄
I have that one muted, so I wouldn't see it, but I see lots of others. They're all over GitWorkshop, which makes for a confusing thread, as they appear as replies. Need to write an issue about that.
Oh, do you mean this one? https://gitworkshop.dev/r/naddr1qq9kw6t5wahhy6mndphhqqg5waehxw309aex2mrp0yhxgctdw4eju6t0qgs2qzx779ted7af5rt04vzw3l2hpzfgtk0a2pw6t2plaz4d2734vngrqsqqqaue3nfxys/issues/note1s2j6qpumyq4p3udmkh2t8uymgpeazgwrczvjqdhrpa49zx4fpwqqlc6awf It is my bot using old event format (kind:9978). It seems there are other people who blast those event. I only publish in nfrelay.app 😅 The pubkey of nostr-filter-relay bot is 981b00cd897786f2a40578c337984d8f0912397c3c6dfc6ffebd4d896cf93f4f . I think gitworkshop can filter only kind 1, kind 7, and git events to show in the UI.
For what I think (though mostly unrelated), we're not even necessarily missing a good AI hosting here. We're missing a good alternative that covers most of the use cases people cover with Azure yet is not provided by Microsoft. An increasing amount of companies and quite some organizations, as I repeatedly have to learn, trust in that stuff. Teams is pretty everywhere. Sharepoint and Onedrive integrates with this. AD and Cloud SSO is used to handle AAA. In some cases, corporations even run virtual desktops on that stuff. Azure computer resources are used to deploy microservices that speak to other "standard" third-party components in Azure (such as Azure-hosted postgresql, elasticsearch, ...). It's a technical sh_t show if you look closer but it still gets you quite far in terms of integration, and their AI stuff tightly integrates with that both on a user level and on an application level. I have no real good idea how to get rid of that, except for really strong regulation (which I don't see happen anytime soon). It's concerning to the max (even though this was a massive deviation from AI on Nostr...).😶
I'm doubtful that we will make much influence on the corporate front, at least for some years. In my experience, it's just too well integrated at this point. So many specialised apps are written for Windows, so it makes sense that they just go all in on Microshit. I begrudgingly use it at work and just accept that it'll probably be that way until I retire. I'm sure we will have another CloudStrike, except far worse, before people even begin to question the stupidity of having most major infrastructure systems in one shitty basket that just keeps growing.
German government is trying to go open-source, to save money, but the older public employees keep causing trouble.
Yeah, I know. My last job was rolling out Office 365 and co. You forgot to mention Power BI. 🤦♂️ Bane of my existence.
Uh. I tried to forget about Power BI. But then again, I try the same for Sharepoint.🙈
The last class in my CS degree revolves around PowerBI. Lol It's a bullshit class, but I might replace it with a C++ class or something.
They want you to learn it, to service the corporate victims and make $$$.
Think about it this way: There used to be one or two ovens per village, either at the bakers or in the town square. It took hours to heat up, by packing it full of precious wood, so everyone would get their bread from there, as building an oven and burning all that wood, just for one loaf of bread, would have been crazy. There were usually only a couple of kinds of bread being baked, as the work around the oven was so laborous. Then people eventually got wood-burning kitchen ovens, that doubled as a heater and a stove. Then they baked their own bread, since the time and cost became negligable. But Most people Just baked the same bread over and over. At the most, they'd break it up into dinner rolls, or something. And then everyone got electrical ovens and it got even easier and cheaper... and they all stopped baking. Now, almost everyone goes to the grocery store or the master bakery, where there is a wide, curated selection of bread, and choose from that selection. In the same way, AI app generation won't lead to everyone creating their own apps. It'll lead to people becoming app-generation specialists and they'll offer an array of apps to choose from and further customize, hosting options, services, etc. Or they will concentrate on the data and storage layer, where the value is. The dev talent will have to go one level deeper, in multliple directions, same way that baking had to become a factory good or an art form. That is the effect of commoditization: go upscale or downscale.
I agree. I wanted to add that, in the future, most people will be willing to pay directly to client entrepreneurs and other service providers because doing so will overall improve their opportunity costs nostr:nevent1qqs8x7h48qnq4gccgqyju5qm7gylmthplq0lme7374fcgr3mgdm6rvgpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qgs24ypvqeykm4g7yffpa4m648utrmw24vefksuejr3kjsglddysuugrqsqqqqqpn2kdjs
there will be a day when he logs into a nostr client that runs your own local relay in-app that broadcasts messages with an outbox so that he can tell us nostr is censorable 🤣
as i broascast this note using my citrine local app running over tor as my only outbox relay
I don't think people even realise any more that they own their computer, and they can do whatever they want with it. I think people have been totally brainwashed by 'the cloud'.
Most people don't even use a real computer, anymore, they just use apps on their phones, so they're basically mental captives. Almost everything they do on there seems like magic, and they only use phones to make pictures and post them, or do VOIP calls. Don't even have a real file system. LOL Relays on phones are actually bringing a sort of file system to mobile.
Scary stuff. As you say there's a glimmer of hope with relays on phones and other innovative solutions. But on the whole people it's a pretty bleak time for the way people understand and use computing. But also the best time because now we've got Nostr, it's strange how there's always a paradox between it being the best time and the worst time and the same time.
🌍 🧑🚀 🔫 🧑🚀 https://i.nostr.build/a6rVi8U9DLlTH6uw.png
