Oddbean new post about login | logout I think location matters. I was allowed to walk multiple miles and disappear for a couple days, but we usually just told our parents to expect that and rhe general place we would be (the woods camping, a friend's house, etc). We lived in rural Georgia and Alabama in those years. There were few people around. A kid wandering off for miles/days in a place like New York City obviously has a completely different set of concerns compared to a kid in the rural south who grew up in the woods with guns, knives, fire, etc. I didn't worry much about getting kidnapped, raped, etc in the woods with my friends. In a city of millions of people, probably. But we also had other dangers to learn about (snakes, animals, etc). It's contextual.
Yeah, out here we have other scary stuff, like wild boar, hunting accidents, poisonious, rabies, ticks, hornets, drownings, random nutjobs or refugees who camp in the woods, etc. There was a guy who turned his German shepherds violent and would sic them on hikers for the lulz. Glad he's dead. We also have a crazily-skewed sex ratio, so women leave fests hours before the men do. A large town or cozy suburb is probably the best place to raise children, on average, but those places are getting expensive. People mostly move out here because housing is cheaper.
The Turks and Russians were smart. They would all converge on one neighborhood and drive out the Germans. Now, they have whole sections of the cities to themselves.
this is what all the refugees will be doing it's what Nassim Taleb says, people are not xenophobic, they are homophilic they want to be around their own kind some of us are wild animals that's why we like the wide open spaces
Exactly. There are extremes on both ends. My environment was hazardous, but not in the way some parts of Alaska, for example, would be for even trained adults. I don't think there's ever truly been a universal glory days when children everywhere could just venture off safely. It always has and always will be relative. Some people tend to romanticize the past as if everything has only gotten worse. Some hazards have merely been replaced by others, while some have been mostly eliminated. People who grew up in areas like mine decades before me had to worry about diseases caused by malnutrition while I didn't because of modern technology. Tradeoffs have always existed.
Kids here used to trigger mines, left by the wars. Or get accidentally killed by farming machines. And if you have domestic violence problems or suffer from depression or disability, and live out in the middle of nowhere, then it sucks to be you.
It looks so romantic and idyllic to visitors, but people kill themselves accidentally or in purpose, on the regular. Not in the least because many women hate it out here and run away to the town, as soon as the kids are old enough. I have remote work and Nostr and church, to keep me sane. 🙏🏻 Everyone thinks about "where to raise kids" and ignores the "where to house your wife" aspect, but that's the aspect that dominates the majority of your life together.
I've seen this exact situation play out. The man is oblivious, the wife leaves for someone older who goes on exotic vacations. The house in the small town has to be sold or the ex-husband buys her half from her at great cost. He's confused and bitter why she's ruined everything. She feels like she escaped something, but what exactly did she escape is unclear to her husband and son.
Women and children actually get attacked by men in the woods, here, so we only go out alone in the village and adjacent field paths.
Sure, but that wasn't a problem where I grew up. That's my point. The whole issue is contextual. There isn't a place on earth where humans have no safety concerns and there never has been. There likely never will be. The only thing we can do is minimize our risk based upon our individual context. Unfortunately, that means kids can't do some things in some places that other kids in other places can. Or women, etc. I hate that anyone is harmed anywhere, but that has always been an issue to some degree for everyone everywhere. I'm losing track of the original topic now, but fuck the men doing that in your area.
And I strongly defend the right of women (and men) to put a bullet into anyone doing shit like that to stop the attack. We don't all get that right, unfortunately.
If I have to carry a gun to defend myself, then there's no real advantage over walking around a gated community or a middle-class town. At least people can hear me scream there, or might drive past. That's my point. The woods and back fields just look empty, but there are German men who live out there or own forests or hunt or collect mushrooms. And some of them have been thirsty for decades or are just legit crazy. I've heard stories and experienced some stuff. 😬 Feel safer in the town.
I'm not sure if you think we disagree on something, so I'll just make it clear that we don't in case I've given that impression. Every place is different and therefore there is no one strategy for how to best live or raise children. That's the only point I was ever trying to make. I'm glad you feel safer in your town vs the local fields, but safety is relative and has more factors than just humans. I carry a gun everywhere, but that isn't for everyone (like children, maybe you or others, etc). Different places, cultures, laws, etc. I never meant to say that your woods are safer, only that mine were, which is why it's unfair to say all children should live the same way everywhere.
I don't think we're disagreeing. A lot has to do with WHERE the rural area is. Like, it's maybe in the middle of nowhere and then suddenly a major road or train line is built, or the tiny airport or seaport gets enlarged, or a factory opens up, or it gets listed as a nice place to mountainbike on some travel show, and BOOM, you've got traffic. Still rural, but no longer as isolated, and with strangers wandering around. This place used to be so cut-off that they have their own local foods and dialect, and now people live here and commute to Munich and bike tours and hiking routes come through. And now they're opening up an "industrial district" and we get food trucks and Amazon Prime delivery. We even have traffic jams and a truck stop. We used to not even get trucks. 😂🤷♀️ And there's a medieval village a half hour away that just got a logistics center. Village is still like 400 people, but heavy traffic in and out, all day, right next to them. Soon, there will be a gas station and then a grocery store and then... But still only 400 people.
Complex topic for sure... I think it comes down to a couple things: a) Changes in society - people no longer really fear God (or live by His rules) so murder, rape, etc. are perfectly acceptable behaviors for those people b) Given the above, then each person must weigh their options -- if you're comfortable protecting yourself, then rural / individual life makes sense. If however you're not, then being around others (i.e. city life) makes sense as you have to rely on them to protect you in the event of any attack. Sad, but the real issue here is (a) and not (b)...
number one self defense is flight
At some point it comes down to whether you'd rather die than live under tyrrany--only then will people truly take action. Venezuela may be at that point...
if enough people leave the neighbours will send help for the rest
I don't fear god and don't even believe in one, yet I don't think rape and murder are acceptable. One doesn't need to completely sell out intellectually to be moral.
No, in fact selling out intellectually would preclude moral perfection as failure to employ the faculty of reason where appropriate would be an abuse. You do, however, imply that fearing or believing in God would be selling out intellectually. I see no reason to make that conclusion. That you personally have not seen compelling evidence for God is not a proof that others have not either and are behaving irrationally.
Oh agree completely--threre are indeed some sane atheists--and yet those that DO feel that it's ok to "murder death kill" (with apologies to Simon Phoenix) almost without exception do not believe in a higher authority...
What are you basing this on? You're making the claim as if it's fact, but haven't cited any evidence. Studies of inmates in the US, for example, disagree. Most of them are not atheists.
Prima facie - and people in prison often come to change their outlooks. If you believe in God, then you know murder is wrong. You can (of course) choose to go against God's word... But if you do not believe in God, then there is nothing holding you back...the only person you answer to is yourself...and you may in fact give yourself permission to kill...
Your belief about atheists is actually a pretty well studied bias, by the way. Here is just one example: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151 And you also say 'God' and 'His rules' as if that is some clear definition or morality. Which god? There are thousands. Which rules? There are many different rules, even amongst the Abrahamic religions alone. Much rape and murder has been committed in the name of god. There are examples explicitly in the Christian Bible saying it is okay to kill people for reasons I and many Atheists would say is wrong. I think you're just biased like most people. You also say there are some sane atheists, as if sanity is at play. Do you also think most Atheists are insane? I haven't seen any evidence suggesting that Atheisism or religion is an indicator of sanity. Insanity doesn't really accommodate things like morality, religion, or reason. You can't really measure the beliefs of an insane person due to the detachment from reality.
You seem to feel I'm predjudiced against atheists...I'm not. I'm simply saying that there are 10 Commandments to live by--anyone can choose to follow them or not. Atheists decide what is right based on their own personal views, and therefore atheists can give themselves permissions to do whatever they'd like without consequences. Christians (and many other religions) do not condone murder, and there are consequences for those that choose to ignore God's guidance and go their own path. And those consequences do indeed serve as a deterrent. You may (of course) be able to find and serve outliers as examples, but that doesn't change the fact that those believing in God (and living by HIs words) are less likely to commit crimes than those that only have to listen to themselves to determine what is right. Individual moral relativism is not the answer...
I think it because you have made it clear with your own statements.
Logic is not prejudice... Life is a cost-benefit analysis (for everything). If you believe the costs are low, and the benefit is high, you'll do it. If the costs are high and overwhelm the benefits received, you won't. When God is involved the costs go up. Without God, the costs are what each person personally determines them to be. Simple...cost benefit
Another aspect is, as we've grown more isolated, we've stopped trusting strangers. In most cases, this distrust is entirely unfounded. But no one talks to strangers, so who would know? A confident child is actually at much lower risk than a timid one. Timidity is a vulnerability, and predators prey on the vulnerable. Most kids in most places would, I think, be safe if they're with one or two siblings or friends, and if they know how and when to approach adults to ask for help.
Yeah, my kids travel all over the place, together and with a group of friends. They've always been relatively free-range. People raise their kids to be completely paranoid, rather than savvy and alert. The parents hardly leave the house, either, so that's probably the underlying issue. The kids aren't learning by observing their parents walking and biking and bussing around in public.
Rather, it would be unfair to say that parents can or should necessarily do anything differently. It could be that you're already doing the best you can within your ability and in accordance with the tradeoffs you prefer. There are disadvantages to the good old days or locations like where I grew up that get romanticized away by posts like the OP. Being way out in the middle of nowhere indeed meant I could stray father and be safer than in Atlanta, but we were also extremely poor comparatively.
Yeah, my parents grew up poor in rural areas and were horrified when we moved out there. They'd both rather die than move back out to the country. 😂 And I really do know women that had nervous breakdowns and literally ran away from home.
we have computers and cars now, there really is no need for this excessive congregation
That bad? Wow.
Yup. And that was already before the refugees came. There are men who just wander around. And some go out there and drink or whatnot. Or they watch from behind logpiles. There are good and bad men, everywhere.
That's for sure. But I never heard about similar situation here in Czechia. Maybe like in few very specific hotspots, but even there it was more like "fear of something could happen" then actuall attacks...
Unfortunately, this is a growing concern in many places. I see all kinds of goofy stuff in the emergency department related to issues like this.
Rural areas used to be emptier. But so many people move out to the country, or are into nature sports or hunting and gathering, that the forests have more traffic. And now e-bikes. The village is also 4 times larger than in the 80s, after all, and the city bus comes out here, now.
Some American national parks are facing problems with overcrowding. Not what you'd expect, but there it is.
Do you also have the homeless camps? We see them sometimes, on hikes. We didn't use to have those. And I swear men have started living permanently in the hunting cabins.
Yes, my city has them and healthcare workers have become social workers as a result. Fortunately, I live kind of outside the city amongst the farms, but I'll have to move in a few years. I like having a mix of the good from each. Things are getting worse everywhere, I'm afraid.
Yeah, we're in a farming village within an hour of various urban sprawls.
That seems to be the kind of setup that makes me most happy, but things are declining everywhere. It's mostly drugs and property crimes in our smaller towns. A lot of it is actually perpetrated by people who come from the cities, interestingly enough. It's a way of reducing the odds of being caught or convicted for smaller crimes in the US due to how our jurisdictions work (my incentive theory).
Writer Lenore Skenazy tells a story about how she let her son explore New York on his own one day. He wanted to see if he could find his way home on the subway system from an unfamiliar location, so she dropped him off in a pretty safe mall and he made his way back on his own. When you went camping in the backwoods of Georgia, I'm sure your parents allowed it in part because they were confident in the ability of you and your friends to navigate your environment. A city is just another environment with its particular opportunities and dangers, and a kid confident in navigating the city environment will be much safer miles from home than a kid a few hundred yards into the woods for the first time.