Oddbean

If I have to carry a gun to defend myself, then there's no real advantage over walking around a gated community or a middle-class town. At least people can hear me scream there, or might drive past. That's my point. The woods and back fields just look empty, but there are German men who live out there or own forests or hunt or collect mushrooms. And some of them have been thirsty for decades or are just legit crazy. I've heard stories and experienced some stuff. 😬 Feel safer in the town.

I'm not sure if you think we disagree on something, so I'll just make it clear that we don't in case I've given that impression. Every place is different and therefore there is no one strategy for how to best live or raise children. That's the only point I was ever trying to make. I'm glad you feel safer in your town vs the local fields, but safety is relative and has more factors than just humans. I carry a gun everywhere, but that isn't for everyone (like children, maybe you or others, etc). Different places, cultures, laws, etc. I never meant to say that your woods are safer, only that mine were, which is why it's unfair to say all children should live the same way everywhere.

I don't think we're disagreeing. A lot has to do with WHERE the rural area is. Like, it's maybe in the middle of nowhere and then suddenly a major road or train line is built, or the tiny airport or seaport gets enlarged, or a factory opens up, or it gets listed as a nice place to mountainbike on some travel show, and BOOM, you've got traffic. Still rural, but no longer as isolated, and with strangers wandering around. This place used to be so cut-off that they have their own local foods and dialect, and now people live here and commute to Munich and bike tours and hiking routes come through. And now they're opening up an "industrial district" and we get food trucks and Amazon Prime delivery. We even have traffic jams and a truck stop. We used to not even get trucks. 😂🤷‍♀️ And there's a medieval village a half hour away that just got a logistics center. Village is still like 400 people, but heavy traffic in and out, all day, right next to them. Soon, there will be a gas station and then a grocery store and then... But still only 400 people.

Complex topic for sure... I think it comes down to a couple things: a) Changes in society - people no longer really fear God (or live by His rules) so murder, rape, etc. are perfectly acceptable behaviors for those people b) Given the above, then each person must weigh their options -- if you're comfortable protecting yourself, then rural / individual life makes sense. If however you're not, then being around others (i.e. city life) makes sense as you have to rely on them to protect you in the event of any attack. Sad, but the real issue here is (a) and not (b)...

No, in fact selling out intellectually would preclude moral perfection as failure to employ the faculty of reason where appropriate would be an abuse. You do, however, imply that fearing or believing in God would be selling out intellectually. I see no reason to make that conclusion. That you personally have not seen compelling evidence for God is not a proof that others have not either and are behaving irrationally.

Oh agree completely--threre are indeed some sane atheists--and yet those that DO feel that it's ok to "murder death kill" (with apologies to Simon Phoenix) almost without exception do not believe in a higher authority...

Prima facie - and people in prison often come to change their outlooks. If you believe in God, then you know murder is wrong. You can (of course) choose to go against God's word... But if you do not believe in God, then there is nothing holding you back...the only person you answer to is yourself...and you may in fact give yourself permission to kill...

Your belief about atheists is actually a pretty well studied bias, by the way. Here is just one example: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151 And you also say 'God' and 'His rules' as if that is some clear definition or morality. Which god? There are thousands. Which rules? There are many different rules, even amongst the Abrahamic religions alone. Much rape and murder has been committed in the name of god. There are examples explicitly in the Christian Bible saying it is okay to kill people for reasons I and many Atheists would say is wrong. I think you're just biased like most people. You also say there are some sane atheists, as if sanity is at play. Do you also think most Atheists are insane? I haven't seen any evidence suggesting that Atheisism or religion is an indicator of sanity. Insanity doesn't really accommodate things like morality, religion, or reason. You can't really measure the beliefs of an insane person due to the detachment from reality.

You seem to feel I'm predjudiced against atheists...I'm not. I'm simply saying that there are 10 Commandments to live by--anyone can choose to follow them or not. Atheists decide what is right based on their own personal views, and therefore atheists can give themselves permissions to do whatever they'd like without consequences. Christians (and many other religions) do not condone murder, and there are consequences for those that choose to ignore God's guidance and go their own path. And those consequences do indeed serve as a deterrent. You may (of course) be able to find and serve outliers as examples, but that doesn't change the fact that those believing in God (and living by HIs words) are less likely to commit crimes than those that only have to listen to themselves to determine what is right. Individual moral relativism is not the answer...

Logic is not prejudice... Life is a cost-benefit analysis (for everything). If you believe the costs are low, and the benefit is high, you'll do it. If the costs are high and overwhelm the benefits received, you won't. When God is involved the costs go up. Without God, the costs are what each person personally determines them to be. Simple...cost benefit

Another aspect is, as we've grown more isolated, we've stopped trusting strangers. In most cases, this distrust is entirely unfounded. But no one talks to strangers, so who would know? A confident child is actually at much lower risk than a timid one. Timidity is a vulnerability, and predators prey on the vulnerable. Most kids in most places would, I think, be safe if they're with one or two siblings or friends, and if they know how and when to approach adults to ask for help.

Yeah, my kids travel all over the place, together and with a group of friends. They've always been relatively free-range. People raise their kids to be completely paranoid, rather than savvy and alert. The parents hardly leave the house, either, so that's probably the underlying issue. The kids aren't learning by observing their parents walking and biking and bussing around in public.

Rather, it would be unfair to say that parents can or should necessarily do anything differently. It could be that you're already doing the best you can within your ability and in accordance with the tradeoffs you prefer. There are disadvantages to the good old days or locations like where I grew up that get romanticized away by posts like the OP. Being way out in the middle of nowhere indeed meant I could stray father and be safer than in Atlanta, but we were also extremely poor comparatively.

Yeah, my parents grew up poor in rural areas and were horrified when we moved out there. They'd both rather die than move back out to the country. 😂 And I really do know women that had nervous breakdowns and literally ran away from home.