Oddbean new post about login | logout You ARE wrong. Censorship is WRONG. That is why Nostr was created. STOP IT
Thats filtering up there not censorship
@giacomozucco had a great talk on this in vegas in the context of bitcoin. You need to filter or else your system will be overrun by people trying to bring it down
I think people get triggered by the word without thinking hard about what is actually being said and what properties of the system do we actually want to have.
A rose by any other name...censorship is censorship. Calling it "filtering" is silly...
Let me guess, bcasher
https://youtu.be/8Jtokmp8zoE?si=4oujrPpfH28vTxPp
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The Bitcoin protocol is censorship resistant, but users can choose to use Coinbase which requires KYC and sets limits on transactions. The Nostr protocol is censorship resistant, but users can choose to interact with relays or clients which filter in a way which improves their experience.
If you run an app for kids build on nostr, censorship is more than welcome. Use a relay which is not censored 🤷♀️ I really don't see a problem here.
yeah the most important thing is making sure clients give user control over all the knobs so users can associate with whatever relays they want. This is why I always want to have manual mode in addition to relay autopilot.
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Why the fuck should I go through notes and notes of spam? Just because you are free to write it and have relays that will transmit it, it doesn’t mean I need to see it. The beaty of nostr is that users can filter the stuff they don’t want to see. If someone isn’t behaving on nostr, they go to shadow realm. If someone is wasting my time I will never see their notes again. Shadow (Mute) Realm on nostr is unforgiving place.
Agree COMPLETELY. We need simple tools so that INDIVIDUALS can make their own choices. Look at it this way--if all USERS simply block spam on their own by muting, then we will (over time) extinguish spam. The solution is to make better tools for INDIVIDUALS to use, and to not censor at a global (relay) level.
Agree COMPLETELY. We need simple tools so that INDIVIDUALS can make their own choices. Look at it this way--if all USERS simply block spam on their own by muting, then we will (over time) extinguish spam. The solution is to make better tools for INDIVIDUALS to use, and to not censor at a global (relay) level. nostr.fmt.wiz.biz
ok, but how am I ever supposed to mute the entire npub spam army? There seem to be many spam accounts and there seem to be more each day. Doesn’t client side “mute” seem kind of futile? Spammers can spam at scale, but how do I mute at scale?
Exactly my point--it's not easy--so we (users) need better tools from the developers to enable user moderation of content (i.e., change the channel) That's where development efforts shoudl be focused--enabling the USER to control (and choose) their own content, in and easy, simple, expedient way. And yes, censoring content at the relay level is much easier to implement--yet my concern is that it takes us in the wrong direction (i.e., centralization vs. decentralization). We're better than that--devs, please take up the challenge--Nostr is AMAZING--let's build the tools that will continue to inspire and yet stay true to the core reason Nostr exists--decentralized communication and freedom of speech!
Exactly my point--it's not easy--so we (users) need better tools from the developers to enable user moderation of content (i.e., change the channel) That's where development efforts shoudl be focused--enabling the USER to control (and choose) their own content, in and easy, simple, expedient way. And yes, censoring content at the relay level is much easier to implement--yet my concern is that it takes us in the wrong direction (i.e., centralization vs. decentralization). We're better than that--devs, please take up the challenge--Nostr is AMAZING--let's build the tools that will continue to inspire and yet stay true to the core reason Nostr exists--decentralized communication and freedom of speech! nostr.fmt.wiz.biz
gotcha, well I guess the challenge is doing that on the client. I don’t see how it’s possible yet. But nostr still works, we can all chill out and live with the spam while we discuss solutions. I hope devs don’t view spam as a failure and feel they have to rush in any fix
Agree--it won't be easy--but--if we *can* put content control in the hands of the users we'll have taken a GIANT LEAP forward with Nostr-- People ask "why not just use Twitter, or Mastodon or..." and "when will Nostr adoption reach a critical mass?" Well, user-controlled content is the "killer app" that will answer both questions...
That's exactly right. And it's me, not anybody else, who decides what is spam and who goes to the shadow realm. With tools on my client that I control, not anywhere else under someone else's control.
Ok pedophile
I think Nostr was created to be censorship-resistant. That is to say, no matter how much a relay or client may choose to censor content, users are not limited by those censorship choices. Even if all relays and/or all clients chose to censor particular content, anyone is free to spin up their own relay and/or client instances to circumvent those censorship choices of others. i.e. I think Nostr was created to render the value judgement of censorship moot.
Yes, anyone CAN spin up their own relay, but do we really want to make that our freedom of speech proposition? "Hey folks, Nostr is great--but you have to spin up your own relay to make it work if you don't want to be censored" One of our greatest (current) problems is easy of use...I'd say going down the "spin up your own relay" isn't really our best answer...
Don't conflate "CAN spin up their own relay" with "HAVE TO spin up your own relay". Again, only "if all relays" censored you would you be required to spin up your own. That means it would only take one like-minded individual as yourself to spin up their own censorship-free relay so that you (and all other like-minded individuals) wouldn't have to. At worst, this would-be issue presents opportunity (either to you or to anyone else) to cater to you and like-minded individuals.
Yes, I do get it...yet I still believe (STRONGLY) that we need to develop tools that let USERS control and filter their own content--and to not rely on someone else (e.g., relay operators) to do it. Frankly, the functionality to "focus" a user's feed is really missing from Nostr currently...developing such a framework would help to solve both problems. Decentralization is the primary core tenet of Nostr--and any "filtering" should be decentralized as well.
"we need to develop tools that let USERS control and filter their own content" This is where we agree. Ultimately, users ought to be able choose a stream of content to their liking (i.e. choose a set of relays) AND have the tools available to further curate that stream to suit their preferences with reasonable ease. I see no reason to assume that work isn't being done to eventually achieve this.
The devil is in the details. How "wrong" censoring spam is really depends on how it done. How much decentralization was given up in the process? How many legitimate users were silenced inadvertently? This is a delicate issue, if it's to be handled optimally.
Oh, no argument--it's a VERY complex issue--and "filtering" is one solution-- Yet it relies on counting on relay operators to then not censor other things...and that's when it gets sticky... It's really the exact problem Facebook, Twitter, etc. are faced with--how much censorship is "ok"? And who gets to decide?
