Oddbean

This is where principles matter. Principles are not affected by facts or misinformation. For example, Whether one is IDF fighting what they think is ‘Hamas terrorist’ or one is a Hamas freedoms fighter fighting an oppressive occupying force, whether you believe either sides propaganda, that doesn’t justify murdering civilians, dehumanising them, give cause for abuse of POW etc. Allaah said in the Quraan یَـٰۤأَیُّهَا ٱلَّذِینَ ءَامَنُوا۟ كُونُوا۟ قَوَّ ٰ⁠مِینَ لِلَّهِ شُهَدَاۤءَ بِٱلۡقِسۡطِۖ وَلَا یَجۡرِمَنَّكُمۡ شَنَـَٔانُ قَوۡمٍ عَلَىٰۤ أَلَّا تَعۡدِلُوا۟ۚ ٱعۡدِلُوا۟ هُوَ أَقۡرَبُ لِلتَّقۡوَىٰۖ وَٱتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ خَبِیرُۢ بِمَا تَعۡمَلُونَ﴿ ٨ ﴾ “You who believe, be steadfast in your devotion to God and bear witness impartially: do not let hatred of others lead you away from justice, but adhere to justice, for that is closer to awareness of God. Be mindful of God: God is well aware of all that you do.” Belief in one’s own propaganda should never lead one to commit crimes. I support the Palestinians simply because they are an occupied people in occupied land. Nobody on planet earth disagrees with this besides Israel and USA. One can argue all they like, but this is a statement of fact. Not opinion. There are objective facts in the ground that one cannot ignore no matter how much one wants to

And btw also support Jews in their search for safety. So for example every piece of property legitimately transferred from Palestinians to Israelis - great. Every one stolen at gunpoint, by trickery, etc, not great. Bad in fact.

But who denies any of that by the way? Have you ever seen any human being Palestinian or not deny a Jew from property they acquired legally and fairly? It’s almost like a straw man to mention it. Islam has very strict property rights laws and that would have and has always protected the rights of a Jew and everyone else to buy and own property. The irony is, it’s this exact thing we both agree on that the Israeli gov is breaking and has been breaking for almost a century now. And I would also say that statement “I support Jews in their search for safety” I find it extremely distasteful. Safety is a right given to all, not just Jews. When phrased in such a way it gives the impression that their safety is somehow more important than others. So I would say, for all of those who wave this phrase in the air to them take the Jews into your own lands and give them the safety you say you want them to have; and don’t take other people’s land and rights to achieve that goal. https://youtu.be/RvQmoPjH4dA?si=NazyRKSbFuVRMYwh

I didn’t mean it that way. 🫂 I actually think I agree with everything you said there - I just felt the need to even out my earlier statement a bit for some people I know who are prone to seeing statements that are ultimately anti-Israel as being anti-Semitic.

And that’s by design. There is a known sense of ‘fear’ to say ‘ANYTHING’ remotely wrong to get the label of ‘antisemitism’. This has manifested itself to people always self censoring even the most innocent of sentences. And not they are pushing that being ‘anti-Israeli’ or even ‘anti-Israeli politics’ equals ‘anti-Semitic’. This is nonsense and a weapon against criticism. Hating someone for things they cannot change (their colour, height etc) is dumb, but hating someone for their evil actions and/or beliefs then that’s why you would hate someone. And it’s also fair, because they have a choice to be evil or not. If someone doesn’t want the world to hate them, don’t kill and murder innocent women and children. It’s not hard math 😘

They are fighting an occupation. Thats a statement of fact. I hope they do so in accordance to Islamic laws of engagement which protects innocent civilians etc. Whether they do that, who knows for sure. But from the evidence I’ve seen, they do. Will they continue to do that? I don’t know have they always done that? I don’t know. I only really learnt anything about them since 7th October, like most people, and I’ve seen a long list of things they were accused of that turned out to be blatant Israeli lies. Egregious despicable lies. If there’s something specifically about them you think is bad, let me know and I’ll comment on that specifically. But based on what I know and what I said above, their situation is simple and is no different to any government that fights occupation.

By the way, let’s not forget, they aren’t a band of guys with guns, they are a legitimate government that won an election set up by the US government in a fair election. The US government even said at the time that it was the most fair election that has taken place in the region. Governments conduct military operations when necessary (or even when it’s not necessary).

Here are things I currently believe about Hamas that I also see as negative. Until recently their stated organizational goal included killing all Jews everywhere. They may be using unwilling civilians as shields. They killed children intentionally during the Oct 7 events. They killed non-combatant men and women intentionally during the same. They may be restricting people from fleeing from Gaza. Their stated strategy is to cause Israel to kill civilians (who have seemingly not consented meaningfully to be so sacrificed) in order to rally support against Israel. For sure maybe these are not true.

Ok, so before even addressing these points, the fundamental question is, if these points were misinformation, deliberately via propaganda or accidental via misunderstanding, if they weren’t true, how would that change your view of this conflict? Because if it changes nothing, then it’s a pointless to the discussion by even mentioning it.

Yeah so let’s say that all my moral problems with a Hamas are proven false, new more valid ones don’t appear, and that a similar review of Israel doesn’t exonerate Israel, then that would shift things for me dramatically. My intention with my opinion is to be true, with no preference for the typical goal of it staying the same as it has been. Clarifying, dor me right now it’s mostly a question of do I think its best for the area to stop being be under the kind of Israeli government control it’s under after or before Hamas is defeated.

I think you’re a reasonable man, and given the information I trust you will come to a conclusion that is more reflective of the facts. I genuinely suggest, sincerely from my heart, that you just watch the video I shared above with Norman Fincklstine, a Jewish scholar in this field. He’s not a Muslim or Hamas so hopefully that would eliminate the suspicion of bias. Watch that; and let me know how you feel after. To address in brief, 1) Regarding the lies about mass rape, that’s received an Uber push just over the last few days, total lies, as can be seen here. They even used picture from wars in Kurdistan as evidence of Hamas. Lies https://youtu.be/pMqRK5LpGy4?feature=shared 2) The babies, also lies, debunked here also here and plenty of other places https://youtu.be/jUA74ws4NPs?si=d_fQQz0-E1nX90SC 3) The human shields has also been debunked for over a decade now, with no independent organisation every been able to verify that, while all alone independent orgs have proven that Israel has been using human shields for decades now. If you want evidence for this just ask, but I think Norman addresses this 4) They prevent people leaving Gaza, not true, and again, where is the Independent evidence for this? 5) Killing non-combatant men and women, like I said, there were a lot of people who died as a result of the military operation. But there is strong evidence that they weren’t intentional if it occurred. But remember, these places were fortified military locations, even if there were civilians living there. And a civilian who picks up a weapon is now a combatant under international law by the way. Again, if you want evidence for this I can get it. But here is the evidence that the Israelis killed their own people on the 7th https://x.com/ecomarxi/status/1732022607791145273?s=46&t=AeUubJVXjsWeffPXQIjUGA And: https://x.com/propandco/status/1732134983806914940?s=46&t=AeUubJVXjsWeffPXQIjUGA I sincerely request you give Norman a go. He explains it better than me, being a scholar in this. https://image.nostr.build/888a87ea4e0a5d46120545693ed09b95eb1892b682e76b8bf3e8b24da7f2361e.jpg

One last point forgot to mention which actually is the most important one 😂 No, Hamas and no Muslim, wants to kill all Jews. This is either a mistranslation, misunderstanding or outright lie. Most likely what was said was to remove the Jews in power from Palestine, the occupied lands, but it does not include a ‘holocaust like’ death cult. This is so opposed to Islam that it would be tantamount to a form of disbelief in Islam itself. Allah says in the Quraan لَّا یَنۡهَىٰكُمُ ٱللَّهُ عَنِ ٱلَّذِینَ لَمۡ یُقَـٰتِلُوكُمۡ فِی ٱلدِّینِ وَلَمۡ یُخۡرِجُوكُم مِّن دِیَـٰرِكُمۡ أَن تَبَرُّوهُمۡ وَتُقۡسِطُوۤا۟ إِلَیۡهِمۡۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ یُحِبُّ ٱلۡمُقۡسِطِینَ﴿ ٨ ﴾ and He does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with anyone who has not fought you for your faith or driven you out of your homes: God loves the just. Al-Mumtaḥanah, Ayah 8 إِنَّمَا یَنۡهَىٰكُمُ ٱللَّهُ عَنِ ٱلَّذِینَ قَـٰتَلُوكُمۡ فِی ٱلدِّینِ وَأَخۡرَجُوكُم مِّن دِیَـٰرِكُمۡ وَظَـٰهَرُوا۟ عَلَىٰۤ إِخۡرَاجِكُمۡ أَن تَوَلَّوۡهُمۡۚ وَمَن یَتَوَلَّهُمۡ فَأُو۟لَـٰۤىِٕكَ هُمُ ٱلظَّـٰلِمُونَ﴿ ٩ ﴾ But God forbids you to take as allies those who have fought against you for your faith, driven you out of your homes, and helped others to drive you out: any of you who take them as allies will truly be wrongdoers. Al-Mumtaḥanah, Ayah 9 So as you can see, non-oppressive Jews are protected and left alone. Our grief is only with those who oppress Muslims; kill us and kick us out of our homes. Hamas could never have such stupid beliefs, and no Muslim in the history of Islam has ever had that type of beliefs.

Now you’re being dogmatic 😂 Why does the world have to operate under your legal ideology? There are multiple ways in which a nation can rightly operate that does happen to be a carbon copy of the west.

🫂 I haven’t introduced myself it seems :) I don’t think it should be anything like the west. That’s why I am a proponent of a 0 state solution. Of course the world doesn’t have to operate under what I happen to think is the ideally moral system. Democracy btw is not my ideal system either. Democracy is just better in my view what I fear Hamas is doing - a sort of secret governing body that is not accountable to its people, can’t be unseated by them without violence, and doesn’t let them live there without being under their rule and paying tribute to them. But if the question is “which side do I think should be go away first”, which is how I think of the question here, then sure my ideology is important.