Oddbean new post about login | logout Wavlake and Primal share an investor. Hivemind Ventures, aka Max Webster. Wavlake and Primal both engage in matching npubs to email adresses. This can be then used to sell nostr data, as it can be attached to data outside of nostr. Wavlake and Primal both offer « trending » visibility. (Primal came out the gate with trending algo while basic nostr features were still lacking. Talk about development priorities) Wavlake is totally fine with people gaming the leaderboard and removed the data I used to spot the cheater (that man likes trending) (I was using supporter counts to spot the fake, Wavlake removed it after I communicated with them about the manipulation) Primal would like to convince me that their advert containing their investor and another shitfluencer was a genuine conversation and not an ad hidden in a podcast/vlog. 🤷♂️
Is Wavlake just too small and new so the gaming of the system is possible? If it has more users could it be harder to game? Why would they want to allow that?
Their words: it’s essentially paid promotion which they are fine with since they do not offer it as a service yet (and are happy to take the fees). But why removing the supporters count?
Data scavengers everywhere
but its "free" and they know how to talk to artist. 🤪
DONT alienate the artist! 8)
It’s a odd that after deleting my Wavlake app, I’ve been followed , contacted and had comments from Wavlake peeps 👁️👁️👁️👁️👁️ or maybe just coincidence 🤷♂️ I’m sure we shall see , if they are tracking my account that’s a bit shit. 💩
Can I ask why you deleted your app?
This is why I will keep telling musicians to build a node and self-host their music decentralized! #DeMu is the only #sovereignmusic
Nostr will find better solutions for music distribution. It needs to be nostr wide, or it’s pointless.
but that can already be done with RSS just like podcasting has been done for almost 2 decades.
A protocol could reward the entire chain of distribution; makers, infrastructure, marketers (reposts and curated lists)… if sats are exchanged
We already have something like that with the ValueBlock in the RSS feed. Here's the one from the last episode of BowlAfterBowl. Any sats sent to the show get split based off of the ValueBlock in the RSS feed. Some apps and services will add their own split or fee on top of this for their "cut" of the sats. 25% makeheroism@fountain.fm 25% marykateultra@fountain.fm 24% Spencer 24% DuhLaurien@getalby.com 1% BoostBot 1% isobot@getalby.com 1% Podcastindex.org
I have high hopes for what will be developed but the Podcasting 2.0 protocol as it stands ROCKS. Keysend payments are invaluable because it allows value splits so every member of the band, producers, roadies, etc all receive sats when sent. RSS is a wonderful, simple protocol that is totally transparent and replaces the need for contracts entirely.
Is the best answer to dev simple point and click GUI apps to help artists self host their work and then create separate apps that allow artists to link for aggregation and listing? I saw lots of posts about wavlake and listened to some music and zapped a few artists but really got put off when saw login with email
Nostr offers so much potential to reinvent music (and media in general) distribution. Sovereignty of media storage via blossom. Rewarding the chain of distribution via splits. Multiple media clients accessing the same media.
... and people ask why I stopped using (and/or talking about) Primal since the shadow ban incident in '23. 🤷♂️
This isn't the autism we deserve, it's the autism we need. nostr:nevent1qqsxrvd48n2hp0kkfwxjdwl2jp8avcj472h9vr4glh9xqtwc370g0hspr9mhxue69uh5ws2vg9v9jvfn9ehx7um5wgcjucm0d5pzq6fu9qedayumftuvekzzk9lsthewm423ukvcn57ya7dyf9tm9u0mqvzqqqqqqys9zq7c
Each individual client will manipulate the #nostr feed to match the audience they are trying to reach and appease nostr:nevent1qqsxrvd48n2hp0kkfwxjdwl2jp8avcj472h9vr4glh9xqtwc370g0hspp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzyp5nc2pjm6fekjhcenvy9vtlqh0jah24reve38fufmu6gj2hktclkqcyqqqqqqgfjzjq4
Weird, Slavelake doesn't like transparency or openness? Because they blog about it all the time! I can't imagine why they would say one thing and do another, I was told they were such nice guys over there! 🤔🤔🤔
I asked to have the supporters count back, never got a reply.
I should have added an /s, I am not *actually* surprised. I have had my own concerns go ignored or be passively dismissed by them over the past couple years.
I got a sense of it at Slavelake 🤣🤣🤣 Do you mind sharing the concerns? Were they communicated on nostr in the open?
I got to them in Telegram before they ever had a nostr presence. And before they had messages auto-delete in Telegram 😅 I have 3 main concerns: 1) They build out RSS feeds for their artists in order to distribute their music to other Podcasting 2.0 apps, but they do not surface non-Wavlake music feeds in their own music player app. Walled-garden content approach. So self-hosted albums like ours are not surfaced in Wavlake. 2) The RSS feeds they build include a value tag that points 100% of the boosted sats to Wavlake's node. They then do all their "splits" in their black box behind the scenes with 0 transparency. 3) Because of this implementation, they can rugpull artists who are from the "wrong" countries. Early on a Russian music teacher had taught his students about Wavlake and had them upload some songs. These songs received sats from Wavlake users. When they went to go withdraw the sats they earned, Wavlake said "sorry buddy you are Russian, we are keeping your sats." This is antithetical to Bitcoin and frankly the most offensive of all the things I've seen from then so far. As a result the Russian teacher assumed this was a failure of Bitcoin itself and not just of Wavlake's poor/selfish implementation.
The second point sounds bad on its face, but I can see why it would look like a "black box" if creators on their platform use a custodial wallet on wavlake. There's no "split" to be made if it's all just one node.
The flow of all capital through the one node regardless of splits or lack thereof and regardless of use of wavlake custodied wallets or the recently added "bring your own" lightning address means that they become in full, custodial, non-transparent control of every single sat that flows to art on the platform and cuts against most of the basic best-practice principles Bitcoiners are usually quite passionate about.
Not arguing for it, just offering an explanation. I think it's reasonable that they take a small cut if they on-boarded the artist. If they do have "byo LN address" and it indeed doesn't transparently split, I agree that's pretty bad.
Yeah I don't personally have a problem with the amount they take at all. Just the way they do it is a bit gross 😅 The market will decide what reasonable hosting fees will be, anyone can charge whatever they want. But the RSS Podcasting 2.0 spec has a way to openly set splits and they have consistently shown an aversion to building in the spirit of that free and open system (and I mean free as in freedom, not as in money)
I haven't built anything following the podcasting 2.0 spec, so I don't know how hard/easy it is to build something to zap. What I do know is that I spent the afternoon picking up the little crumbs of info from wavlake's blog and digging through wavman's code to figure out how to programmatically search for music on nostr and zap it. Surprisingly kinda a pain in the ass, but would have been simple if they documented the process somewhere. Would love to know how it compares to the RSS model, but it's naturally different since music is discovered via relays as opposed to subscriptions. Overall, a pain in the ass. But I'm also not a web dev by choice (though I find myself doing it a lot lately), so take that for what you will.
A great reference for any and all relevant Podcasting 2.0 tags is available on the Project's Github: https://github.com/Podcastindex-org/podcast-namespace/blob/main/docs/1.0.md Everything is built in the open and explained with relevant examples. If you would like a music-centered version of that, I have made a sample music RSS template here that has comments explaining how each tag is used and what values you need for them: https://github.com/de-mu/demu-feed-template/blob/master/feed-with-comments.xml Always happy to answer any questions you might run into or help troubleshoot! I think my favorite aspect of the RSS approach is that you don't really need a lot of coding background to sit down and familiarize yourself with the tags. It's a very accessible spec to build some sort of "my first coding project" in!
Are you saying Primal sells data? Or just that they “could “?
They could. No proof, just following the money and the cv’s
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