Oddbean new post about login | logout get them to implement outbox model first ffs gossip model favours the established popular relays, outbox model lets people choose!!!! fuck me jack come on
what's outbox model
same we changed from gossip to outbox model because gossip is a term that means too many things (and people think gossip as in lightning network's gossip)
Agreed, gossip is a confusing name. I prefer outbox model as well. Gossip basically means network traffic, classically speaking lmao. So it’s accidentally misleading, especially since it involves propagating the NIP-65 note. I remember @Mike Dilger making jokes about the name on @gsovereignty podcast after he found out haha — he agrees.
It's dillinger's way of describing the gossip model. The idea is that you look in an npub's prefered publishing "outbox" for their posts (type 1) and you could "dead drop" to a relay their profile indicates where they prefer to rendevous to pick up their incoming DMs (i.e. "inbox")
see, these people hate on mike even though he came up with this as a way to improve user experience i may hate his choice of programming language but he did it because you all dumbasses never properly supported NIP-65 either! SLAP!
it's where you advertise where you push your events, and where you read them from NIP-65 most clients don't support it yet, nostrudel is one notable example that does, and it makes it easier to develop relays! it's got nothing to do with what these other retards say, gossip means "tell it to everyone" ffs what is wrong with you people???
Thats not what gossip means when people are saying it, they use outbox/gossip interchangeably Please don't get too triggered lol
He's already triggered and has started name calling 😂
We can settle this peacefully with memes no need for name calling
Those are the same thing, gossip was just a poor name choice
gossip and outbox are not the same nip-65 is about saying "i post to this place, i read from this place" gossip says "try everything" idk how long you have been a programmer but that is n00b talk
I mean, if we're going to play that game, gossip means peer-to-peer propagation of content through a distributed system. Gossip is a misnomer, but in nostr land gossip is a historical term referring to NIP 65.
no, gossip means spreading the message before you validate it, to be STRICTLY CORRECT that's what "promiscuous" means in distributed systems nomenclature there is such a world of difference between "outbox" and "gossip" how in the fuck did anyone inside think anyone outside is gonna realise you loonies mean those to be synonyms? seriously i've been a cypherpunk since the early days, i just was locked out of the internet because i was stuck in australia, and i studied and tried what i could the clear difference between a post office protocol model and a fucking gossip protocol are obvious to anyone who has been in this game since the 00s but you kids don't get the difference i forgive you but fuck you also
🙏
just do a bit more reading of theory please in 1995 i was hanging out with a guy who worked for the DSTC at UQ in brisbane... mostly he talked about the great new thing "java" but i had some small idea that his business was related to computer networks, and the most i had experienced at that point was dialup BBS, usually using taps into junction boxes because the telco monopoly in australia charged so much to use dialup internet that you had to be pretty much rich af to even use the internet my first time having an internet connection, where i set up my account on dmt-world.com was over a dialup connection that i had fraudulently acquired, while living in a house next door to a heroin addict and down the hal a meth addict and across the hall was a psychotic drunk guy, and i pieced that pc together while i was living in canberra, working for the government, rented an apartment with a government aircraft safety manager and then started working as a freelance tech man, it's such a long story, but i feel like i'm almost dead at this point and in a playground with a bunch of children
Well, don't let it bother you too much, we need old guys
i may not look it but yes i'm old af... gonna be 48 real soon and so deranged that i spent most of my last 20 years thinking about network security and the last 8 years deeply tangled in consensus algorithms, even though i was homeless, trying to figure out a way to make a living out of it yes we are gonna figure something out but the whole nostr dev community is suffering from too much funding and too little business discipline
gossip was the wrong name for the model from the start, it just inherited the name from the client that first implemented it, but it has nothing to do with gossiping, it just happens to be the same word
i've used gossip it does not let you control who you request events from nor who you post them to it was so unpleasant to use, as a relay dev, that i refuse to touch that shit again, and i have all my rust tooling here ready to build it, i'm not fucking doing it again, it doesn't work, it won't even fucking buzz my relay no matter how hard i try, and i have it on a fucking reverse proxy wireguard connection with a domain name, what FUCKING more do you want? which is why i hate mike, even though i don't really hate mike that much. but i hate him, fuck you
only client that actually works nip65 properly is nostrudel, which is why it's my daily driver
NoStrudel is the absolute best! @hzrd149 is dropping features like he had a team of 20 experts working for him.
Gossip model will be exploited by spammers. You'll end up flooded with relays with nothing but notes on penis extenders and Alex Jones Protein shakes. You'll end up with huge lists of blocked relays that your client will have to use ro keep the gossip protocols from adding all the spam relays constantly.
that's another problem too i spent a whole year building on the premise that LN payments could be used to prevent spam, for anonymising relays and you are right, it's exactly the same deal here, and everyone who promotes gossip on nostr needs to be whooped upside the head not only is it spammy, it also makes it really hard to tell a client to use the relay you are building!
Gossip protocol to find cheap routes for lightning payments makes sense because it's not being used to distribute human created metadata. There's no benifits to try and exploit this mechanism. A gossip protocol to distribute lists of human curated relays, each and every one of them having an agenda, blatant or sublime, would be a disaster. It will be exploited because it can and will benefit spammers. Letting people chose to use a relay that filters NSFW content has to be superior to forcing people to constantly be blocking NSFW relays they don't want.
gossip is needed for both bitcoin mempool and for lightning for different reasons yes, they reduce the chances of partitioning that's the first reason it helps resist censorship second, gossip is needed for a source routed protocol like lightning because clients have to decide where to forward every hop of the payment, they can't trust the nodes on the path to decide for them, and actually, the cryptographic reason is they define the path because it's cryptographically secure that's why we have AMP, because if any point a client chooses, is offline, or has a banked up network buffer, our payment fails! that's why lightning has a problem and that's why nostr now has a problem because this is not appropriate for nostr at all