Why XMPP is Better than Matrix:
XMPP is the gold standard of decentralized open source communications and the primary choice for the darkweb. Now we can debate XMPP’s reliance on government domains vs SimpleX & Session. Those are fair criticisms. But all of these, including Matrix, have centralized development. SimpleX got money from Microsoft. Signal is on Amazon. And while Session is on a blockchain, it’s like a corporation when it comes to changes. While as XMPP is the only one that’s pure & truly decentralized, with nobody in charge.
And because hosting a Matrix server is so annoying, most people DON’T self-host, and use the official Matrix server w/ Google captchas fingerprinting your device and Gmail doing the verification. That’s right, Matrix.org is linked to Gmail, which ties your Matrix account to your real name if you were dumb enough to trust them with your real email. And can you guess what company actually hosts Matrix.org? Can you guess what US-government compliant company sees who you talk to and when? Drum roll... Cloudflare.
This is copy pasted from the previous post, as it was the main point. I shouldn't have buried the point at the end
Does anyone actually use this protocol? I've never heard it or any of the apps on XMPP.org
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I haven't verified any of this yet, but it's worth investigating.
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I love and use XMPP along with other protocols and apps.
However, there are some other factors to consider when promoting adoption to normies... because it is really difficult to make them switch to any other communication apps other than the ones they've gotten used to so we may only get one chance to succeed:
- Is one-to-one communication e2ee by default without any complicated setup?
- Are text messages and audio+video calls available?
- Is there at least one feature-complete app available on all 5 major platforms?
I have not found any #XMPP client available that meets just these 3 criterea even though XMPP has been around for much longer than #Matrix.
On the other hand, I can very easily get any normie, even kids, to switch to Matrix by just installing one app regardless of their OS and they can start texting and calling right away!
First of all, Element often glitches out and forces a sign-out & reauthentication. Element has far more issues with the keys. So I reject your premise that it’s easier.
You’re talking to me now on Nostr with keys and use Bitcoin with a blockchain. This is far more complex to understand than toggling a lock icon on a bar.
We know what we’re used to. To an Amish person, you talking to me right now is complex.
XMPP seems complex because nobody has a financial incentive to promote it, because its actually decentralized and just code.
In contrast, Matrix makes money setting up servers. So they got funds to push their Google/Cloudflare spyware
I agree Element has those issues.
Just saying that XMPP adoption for the average normie (not us) would be simpler if we could simply recommend **a single app** that is:
- available on all 5 major platforms
- supports e2ee messaging and calls.
Personally I've been blackpilled on federated stuff in general- I want mesh-networked, grid-independent, secure messaging like what LXMF provides on Reticulum.
https://github.com/markqvist/LXMF
We need to start breaking our reliance on their infrastructure. We can't do that with XMPP or Matrix. It'll be far more expensive, but it will be worth it. I'm still a broke college student with no job right now, but inshaAllah I will soon have the money to start dumping thousands upon thousands of dollars into this. I've realized that I need to become rich one way or another- the path I've chosen dictates this.
Glitches out? Hmmm. On Android, my friends, family, and I have never had Element force a sign-out.
I was big fan of xmpp until I have to admin our company internal server (can ignore all the s2s stuff).
I was surprised how poor is a basic protocol description. Any functionality expecting from common messenger is provided by some protocol extension (XEP).
Many of them never have passed "draft stage" touched last time 15y ago. It's not easy to find server and client supporting some pretty list of XEPs. We are using pidgin client (Linux+Win support) and I'm pretty tired answering questions like "I want feature XXX I can use on my Miranda". My typical answer is "sorry, Pidgin just cannot do it". Or "this is unaccepted protocol extension (XEP) and every client implements it different and uncompatible version."
Yes. If you want to send simple text message, it's fine.
But it's mostly abandonware.
Pidgin is the oldest and least worked on client.
XMPP is like Nostr. To say “Pidgin sucks so XMPP sucks”, is like saying “Iris sucks, so Nostr is abandonware”
Will be glad for any recommendation of good client with Linux+Windows version.
Gajim
Installed. Will give a chance for a week.
ok cool
Returning back to pidgin.
Besides nicer pidgin's GUI that is just matter of personal preferences, I really don't like on gajim (1.1.3 @ Ubuntu 20.04.6 lts):
- no automatic join to chat rooms after connection to server
- advanced option "tabs_position" is ignored or is doing something else I would expect from the name
- incomming messages don't raise chat windows automatically. Missed few important messages
- during logoff I am getting warning that there are some unread mesages but I have no clue who written them (see previous point)
Gajim is now on my list "let's try it again in few years".
Gajim is Windows/Linux. Dino is Linux only and cleaner. But you asked me about cross-platform.
The whole different clients thing is a decentralization thing.
In a company supporting 2 OSes for employees, you still want to support just one messenger.
You won't miss messages on Dino. For Gajim, maybe notifications, but it will still be on the list panel
Yeah I understand where you’re coming from. I do.
I’m just saying XMPP is more private, decentralized, and the user has more control
Just for clarification - I didn't mean "the xmpp is abandonware" is based on quality of pidgin. This my sentence is based on release dates of XEPs and the big number of them (generaly implemented across servers and clients) never moved from "draft" stage.
Matrix isn't the enemy. At least Matrix gives the Option for federation, and more widespread usage would only help make self hosting easier. imho Signal is the centralized and data-collecting abomination people need to be warned about.
SimpleX got money from Microsoft -> source ?
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