Oddbean new post about login | logout We need community notes for Nostr
To what purpose?
Because Nostr doesn’t make everyone suddenly immune to false information or intentional deception
People have to take accountability for their own education. What kind of nonsense is this world coming to?
that would be great only if that happened
There are a **lot** of two-faced people on this site as well. I wouldn’t make a list of them & list all the things they have lied to me about. Why? Humans are emotionally reactive. It’s human rights to find out the good and bad in others. Does that make sense to you?
"Truth emerges from the clash of adverse ideas." - John Stuart Mill
If a million people see the first persons idea and 2 people see your correction hidden amongst the replies, truth may not be emerging as quickly as you would like.
If the first person has one million followers, and only two of them follow me, then truth has decisively lost long ago.
Yeah, but community notes are there to double-check celebrities. Our "celebrities" have a majority-cult following, so the community notes would be aimed at critics of the celebrities. We're already under immense social pressure to give up and shut up, and that would just add to it.
Rabble did that. Fed every note he could catch into a corporate Microsoft/OpenAI closed-source machine-learning "moderation service", and spammed the resulting cry-bullying back into the relays. No. We do not need Community Notes when we have an actual, free, and sapient community able to share their own notes.
I do not understand how those two are related
Rabble was unable to censor as he desired, but he was "Community Noting" as a fallback. He was also using a centralised opaque regime-linked service to do it, and you're not. But the concept is the same - a (more or less) centralised "source of truth" gets to visibly assert authority over other people's speech.
Except nothing said this system could not be built on a WoT — not a follow based one but actual trust
So, rating our follows for trustworthiness? That's okay then. I don't mind, but I also don't see the need. My follows call out BS all the time.
well "what my pet AI thinks of this" automatic classification (there's indeed already an event kind for that) isn't quite the same as community notes community notes tend to involve actual, more thorough research by humans and links to sources but to be honest i don't see a way of doing that here either twitter's community notes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Notes) has an elaborate crowdsourcing process but is eventually managed by one org in a decentralized setting it'd be trivial to spam it at the least the client would have to give a choice what community notes provider to use and which to ignore
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No. Community notes are a centralising system of gatekeepers. What we need is a ⬆️ or ⬇️ flagging system so that you can see what your circle of trust thinks of it and make a decision for yourself. Profiles should have a “trust” score that’s based on how many of your circle follows that user or has reported them. That would weed out the scammers and fake profiles that often mislead new users.
Interesting. So your client will then have to ask relays about every note you view or do you see it as a specific kind of reply?
I'm thinking CN with WoT and an action on clients where someone can report with an option to include the CN that the user sees.
That is not logical, not in line with the Nostr ethos of free speech and censorship resistance, a little cabal approved by who knows who deciding what we should consider true and what not, hard pass, we need more critical thinkers, not blind believe...
I mean, he's got over 160k followers and I have 700. 😂
A working community notes system shouldn't depend on the number of followers you have. One way this could work would be to have a community notes feed that you subscribe to. A community note is provisionally added to an existing note, but is invisible in the feed unless you're viewing the community notes feed. From there, when a nominal number of votes on the proposed note and percentage agreeing with the community note is met, it becomes visible in clients that support community notes. Obviously once it becomes visible the user affected can direct their followers to vote against the note but they still *see* the note they're voting against and there's no guarantee that they will automatically follow that direction. There are of course issues with bots that would need to be dealt with perhaps using account age or other factors to allow access to community notes and an ability to ban npubs that abuse the system (particularly if they bot creating notes that fill the feed).
Hmmm, a reasonable (if rather complex to implement) proposal. Amethyst, currently, by default hides a note if it has been the subject of 5+ "Kind 1984" reports by your follows. Kind 1984s already have a text field, so in that way we already have "Community Notes". Amethyst (and other clients) could, for notes with a certain range of reports, display the Kind 1984 text as a "Community Note". The only change required would be in the UX. Would this "scratch the Community Notes itch", do you think?
No, I absolutely DO NOT want notes reported or hidden and tagr bot shouldn't have been reporting notes to achieve the feed it offered. The whole point is that people should see both arguments. More free speech, not less. If kind 1984 is modified in this way, not all clients will update to display the notes so this activity will result in even more notes being hidden.
I'm only suggesting that reported notes be "Community Noted", rather than hidden, for clients supporting the feature. At the moment, such reported notes are hidden by default in Amethyst. It is a very simple system, but I find it works rather well at present. We could have users configure at what number of follow-reports a particular note will be "Community Noted" and at what number hidden.
A working community notes system shouldn't depend on the number of followers you have. One way this could work would be to have a community notes feed that you subscribe to. A community note is provisionally added to an existing note, but is invisible in the feed unless you're viewing the community notes feed. From there, when a nominal number of votes on the proposed note and percentage agreeing with the community note is met, it becomes visible in clients that support community notes. Obviously once it becomes visible the user affected can direct their followers to vote against the note but they still *see* the note they're voting against and there's no guarantee that they will automatically follow that direction. There are of course issues with bots that would need to be dealt with perhaps using account age or other factors to allow access to community notes and an ability to ban npubs that abuse the system (particularly if they bot creating notes that fill the feed).
Hmmm, a reasonable (if rather complex to implement) proposal. Amethyst, currently, by default hides a note if it has been the subject of 5+ "Kind 1984" reports by your follows. Kind 1984s already have a text field, so in that way we already have "Community Notes". Amethyst (and other clients) could, for notes with a certain range of reports, display the Kind 1984 text as a "Community Note". The only change required would be in the UX. Would this "scratch the Community Notes itch", do you think?
No, I absolutely DO NOT want notes reported or hidden and tagr bot shouldn't have been reporting notes to achieve the feed it offered. The whole point is that people should see both arguments. More free speech, not less. If kind 1984 is modified in this way, not all clients will update to display the notes so this activity will result in even more notes being hidden.
I'm only suggesting that reported notes be "Community Noted", rather than hidden, for clients supporting the feature. At the moment, such reported notes are hidden by default in Amethyst. It is a very simple system, but I find it works rather well at present. We could have users configure at what number of follow-reports a particular note will be "Community Noted" and at what number hidden.
This is his other fund. You can see Mutiny, Strike, and Primal, in the list. https://ten31.vc/home/#portfolio
And Coinkite, of course. NVK is from Coinkite and sits with Odell on the OpenSats board. And one of the Ten31 board members is also a Strike board member. The fact that Strike and Primal are financed by the same fund helps explain why they ended up so closely integrated in the app. Pablo has been hanging out with Odell, and now everyone from Primal is getting auto-redirected to his Highlighter app, to read long-form notes. This goes against the natural market, which tended to prefer Habla, or read the articles embedded in the Kind 01 apps. Intertwined like a plate of 🍝. But, if you complain about the money bags dictating app development, you just get buried deeper. And look at the OpenSats board. It's clearly a Bitcoin fund, not a Nostr fund.
Oh, and now Listr is also nudging people toward Primal. Primal seems to have been determined to be the God App and everything is supposed to lead to and from there. That way, they build a closed circle and it becomes a Primal-based suit of products, with the Strike app handling everyone's monetary transactions and normalizing KYC during onboarding.
I won't use Primal for the simple reason that they don't adhere to the outbox model for relay configuration, like Amethyst, and now YakiHonne does. Primal seems intent on doing it their own way, and not adhering to nostr standards. I'm not a fan.
I prefer YakiHonne for long-form articles. Their new design and UX is really nice, and they've put a lot of work into optimizing it specifically for long-form. I tried both Highlighter and Habla, and I didn't really like either of them, although I definitely liked Habla more than Highlighter.
And Coinkite, of course. NVK is from Coinkite and sits with Odell on the OpenSats board. And one of the Ten31 board members is also a Strike board member. The fact that Strike and Primal are financed by the same fund helps explain why they ended up so closely integrated in the app. Pablo has been hanging out with Odell, and now everyone from Primal is getting auto-redirected to his Highlighter app, to read long-form notes. This goes against the natural market, which tended to prefer Habla, or read the articles embedded in the Kind 01 apps. Intertwined like a plate of 🍝. But, if you complain about the money bags dictating app development, you just get buried deeper. And look at the OpenSats board. It's clearly a Bitcoin fund, not a Nostr fund.
Oh, and now Listr is also nudging people toward Primal. Primal seems to have been determined to be the God App and everything is supposed to lead to and from there. That way, they build a closed circle and it becomes a Primal-based suit of products, with the Strike app handling everyone's monetary transactions and normalizing KYC during onboarding.
I won't use Primal for the simple reason that they don't adhere to the outbox model for relay configuration, like Amethyst, and now YakiHonne does. Primal seems intent on doing it their own way, and not adhering to nostr standards. I'm not a fan.
I prefer YakiHonne for long-form articles. Their new design and UX is really nice, and they've put a lot of work into optimizing it specifically for long-form. I tried both Highlighter and Habla, and I didn't really like either of them, although I definitely liked Habla more than Highlighter.
Public square notes < Community kind-1 notes