Oddbean

I’m just speaking about you specifically. The people that care about privacy will put the time in to learn. Privacy isn’t for the average normie. Not because they don’t deserve it but because they don’t care. My wallet has coin control so it shows me which addresses I spend from and I have them labeled so I know where they came from. The only time you would spend that money is when you’d swap for monero. You wouldn’t kyc yourself doing that. Idk it’s up to you what you do with your money but you’ve missed out on gains holding monero.

How have I missed out on gains? One Monero is still worth one Monero. It hasn't changed in value at all. If you're talking about Fiat, then we're talking to totally different stories. I don't care about Fiat. I want more Monero. People who look at the price want more fiat, and that's just not the point.

Dude if you get $100 worth of bitcoin non kyc, it’ll sit in one address. Next month you can get another $100 in bitcoin that will sit in a different address. They are not linked together so no one knows your net worth. The amount will never change. No one knows it belongs to you except the seller and that’s only if the seller knows who you are. You can leave it there for 10 years and nothing will happen to your privacy. Then when you want to spend it, swap for monero.

Right, and I ended up sending you another reply and just saying that if you want to save in Bitcoin and spend in Monero, then I see no problem with that. But it's personally not the way I've chosen to do things.

Oh, but they sure as hell can. They can get together and tell the miners in their country they either have to shut down or not mine these transactions. And if those are more than 51% of all mining power, then that's it. Even if your transaction gets mined, they could just orphan the block.

There are a lot of countries in the world with anonymous miners. They don’t all just do whatever our government wants them to do. The fee market incentivizes miners to not censor. As the number of censored transactions rises, the incentive to mine them grows. If those transactions don’t go through, the price could suffer and the miners would be shooting themselves in the foot.

That is a fair point. How long can your transaction be delayed though? And how long can you withstand it being delayed? Is the real question? If it were your rent for, say, then you would not be able to withstand it being delayed very long.

Transactions cancel after about 2 weeks. You can also increase your fee while it is in the mempool using RBF which incentivizes more people to mine it. If all your sats were doxxed and you were being censored, it would be bad. But I don't think they would go to the miners to censor you if they knew where you lived. They could just come arrest you. Now if you are saying they will censor all non kyc sats, that is extremely difficult to accomplish. It's hard to even know what sats belong to who. How many sats are non kyc? Can you force all miners around the world to kyc all new mined sats? Also, people buy kyc sats and then send them in as donations or use them to buy things from other people. And with payjoin, it gets more difficult to track. All this does is add a lot of friction for US miners which other businesses or countries can take advantage of. Do you think America, China, and Russia will come together and agree to censor each other? We already sanctioned Russia so that clearly shows that they can't agree on everything. If the government in the US even hinted that they were going to subsidize bitcoin mining, they would open the floodgates to new bitcoin adoption. What would that do to the confidence of bond holders and the value of the dollar? Other countries would get in bitcoin and try to mine as well. It would pump the price, making mining more profitable, and add new miners to the network from different countries. This is all very convoluted and we are just speculating about an unknown future. My belief is that the incentive to mine bitcoin is strong enough to overcome censorship. But I admit that remains to be seen. I'd like to see mining pools get more decentralized. I wish bitcoin had more privacy by default but you cant know for certain that there are only 21 million bitcoin if the blockchain isn't transparent. So pseudonymity seemed like a reasonable tradeoff.

Who talk about the sats, they will only go to the green and red address. If ur keys are kyc and u are know u are green. if ur keys are non kyc u will be targeted by any agency and get u an ID or go to jail. Like always it won happen in one take. Just some turn up time to time the heat.

what an individual miners aka anon can do against big corrupt money and infinite money that pay those big miners ? Remember its all about hash power in bitcoin mining. A pretty big gape in mining security.

Matt Corallo : It’s not that I’m a fan of the nuclear option, but rather that I have no *other* ideas if things like Sv2/p2pool don’t get adoption. We’ve been at this for a decade and it’s been a massive problem for a decade. Edit : now good luck following the same btc dev who created all the mess lol 🤣

These are sanctioned addresses that custodial services are supposed to block. This doesn’t block the addresses or wallets from going into the next bitcoin block. Although that is within the realm of possibilities, I haven’t seen it happen yet. I already mentioned that this can happen before. You should read the entire thread. The government could subsidize mining and take over riot, marathon, and the other big mining businesses then filter out those sanctioned addresses from blocks. However, I also said that the fee market is what determines censorship resistance in money. This is all speculation but if the government announced it was going to subsidize mining, that would legitimize bitcoin to the world. The price would pump and other governments would jump in to mine as well. This inevitably would weaken the dollar which is not what the government would want to do. Other countries like Russia and Iran would rush to gain hash power to prevent the US from sanctioning them. More countries would encourage mining businesses to operate in order to profit and a lot would welcome miners from the US. And as the price of bitcoin goes up, the demand for dollars declines. The government would need to print more money to keep subsidizing and censoring blocks which would drive more people away from dollars and into Bitcoin. They’re shooting themselves in the foot and destroying their currency. In order to be censorship resistant, the censored transactions would have to bid higher fees to incentivize mining those transactions. As those fees get higher, rogue miners go online. This is similar to how “illegal” drug dealers pop up when it becomes profitable to do so. I think this type of government attack will fail. But it remains to be seen. https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Censorship-Resistance-Property

At this point its already known that countrys mine bitcoin as part of their "cover ops". So they wont come up and say they are mining. so govs take control of major electrical grid and mine w it. Then introduce kyc to anyone. The fees are not matter at this point. Individual mining doesnt matter also as this point. What matter is who win those blocks, which country win those blocks. They wont be an annoncement about gov financing/mining bitcoin, they also wont legitimize it 'cuz law around the world are "different". And like in those HW they will choose who is in and who is out.

This is all speculation about an unknown future. I see things play out differently from you and I plan around that. There is no sense in arguing about things no one can predict. But we have to be prepared to live with the consequences of being wrong. What if the bitcoiners end up being right? Would you be okay missing all those gains? If the answer is yes then you have nothing to worry about. But if the answer is no then maybe consider holding some just in case. No one can guarantee its success or demise. We can only do the best we can with the information we have available to us today.

No one here vouching for Monero has missed out on any gains. We were here since the very beginning. The question you need to ask yourself is, WHEN you care more for your safety than another fiat multiplier. Fast forward 10 years from now, when BTC will have reached its full investment potential and behaves more like boring paper traded gold. Still see no value in privacy for your wealth? Sooner or later any Bitcoiner will come around to Monero. Why do you think fiat offshore accounts exist?

Yall missed out on a lot of gains what are you talking about lol you can use Bitcoin privately or swap to monero when you want to spend idk man do whatever you want lmao https://image.nostr.build/9ed974352056324783b5c995b977aed45860d0749823231974ad3ab65eb32f65.jpg

I see, the maxi fallacy that one can only own one coin at a time and also only starting in 2018. When I say we have been here since the very beginning I don't mean 2018. I mean the early days of Bitcoin. How do you think we could have come up with Monero ten years ago without using studying and examining Bitcoin beforehand?

I guess we agree more than we disagree then. I used to be 100% BTC. Now I am mostly XMR. And I know for a fact that I am not the only one experiencing this phenomenon. It is a slow shift in valuing different aspects more over others.