the UoA is what the goods are priced in.
and yes it ends up being the denominator.

as in
(ASSET/USD)÷(BTC/USD)

is USD denominated. 

 I genuinely don’t think you are getting the point here. 

Please explain to us then: How do you determine what amount of Monero trades for what amount of Bitcoin? Where does the price basis come from?

You cannot just reply “Bitcoin is the denominator”. Conversion requires mathematics, so please explain with the equation that determines the value and how it’s done. 

 Eggs, milk, electricity, bread, water... Anything. I understand. You are making the math more complicated than it is.  

 it takes about 10,000 sats to buy a carton of eggs. its an easy metric 

 It only takes 10,000 sats to buy a carton of eggs because USD is the UoA of each item.

If it wasn't for bullshit fiat measurements of each asset, we have no idea what the price would be. 

 der 🤓 

 (eggs/USD)÷(sat/USD)

still fiat denominated 

 eggs are priced in dollars
SATs are priced in dollars

its only because they have a common UoA pricing in sats is possible

super basic Econ, principles of money stuff here 

 some law of physics stops me pricing eggs in sats?? or roubles?  or matchsticks?

this convo is hilarious :) 

 you can do whatever the fuck you want and nobody cares

but the world prices shit in USD and you doing division in your head doesn't change that. 

 They can't see it Han. They think it is smooth sailing until BTC becomes the UoA.

They can't see what I call the deep adoption of Monero, which has a similar owners structure as Bitcoin. Likely better.

In a blink of an eye Monero and Bitcoin could change roles if one sees wider use as a currency and becomes a kind of UoA even if it is just for a secondary market at the beginning. Monero is closer to that than BTC. 

 here come da akchually clowns! run!

🤡 

 that isn't what we're talking about 

 I know. There is more they are missing. 

 You can arbitrarily start pricing them any way you like. But nobody particularly cares what you or I think, or how we price them.
The fact is, society is already pricing them using a unit of account.

They are all,
Bitcoin, eggs, milk, electricity, bread and water whatever
they are all denominated already in a unit of account.

You and I don't change that by doing division.

It's also irrelevant if the price is slightly different in a different geographical area. Or if it's actually great British pounds rather than US dollars, the unit of accounts still is the same. 

 It doesn't matter what you start with to determine value at present. The starting point is not involved in the future equation to compare currencies. They are all money. They are all competing to be money. They're not all competing to be USD. USD is just one of the monies competing.  

 I do understand your train of thought, however two things to point out:

1. I did not once mention USD, I said fiat which is any central currency. 

2. Using items that merchants have for sale as the comparison point does not work, because those items are only worth that value in Bitcoin/Monero because they are priced relative to fiat. An example using CAD: Eggs cost $4 a dozen. In Bitcoin the eggs would cost me 0.000047, not because the eggs are actually worth 4700 sats, but because that’s the current conversion from local fiat. The value of the eggs can only be denominated in Bitcoin if Bitcoin is actually the UoA, and thus valuable to the merchant (legal tender, circular economy, etc). If X sats = 1 UoA then it makes sense, but in order to value things in Bitcoin, at this moment in time is HAS to be compared relative to a currency or different form of value, like fiat or gold. You cannot determine the trading price between two currencies or assets using something like eggs, because the value of 1 sat or 1 Bitcoin has not been set at a specific level of understood value, and is calculated by comparison to fiat. In a future where 1 sat is the standard unit of account (ex if those $4 eggs now cost 4 sats), then we could use it as a UoA because there would be a decided amount considered to be the lowest valuable or available(1 cent in fiat). Until then, everything has to be linked back to fiat. This includes financial tickers, so when you look at XMR/BTC, the Monero is only worth what it’s worth in Bitcoin /because/ of the fiat conversion. 

 So if we didn't have fiat, everything would be free? You said fiat is the only reason they have value.  

 This is a “So you hate waffles?” strawman reply dude. Nowhere in my post did I say that or anything close. 

I said their current value is derived from fiat, and at this moment in time it has to be linked back to that valuation because there’s been no alternative standard determined by society. Once society understands what WE understand (the value of Bitcoin) then things can be priced and compared appropriately because it will reach UoA status. 

 That's where you're wrong. People don't derive the value of their eggs by using paper with numbers on it. People derive the value of eggs by determining they want to eat them and what they can give in exchange for that want. Value is subjective. Value is not derived from fiat.  

 You’re right, the value is derived from the fact that it is food, however the price value is able applied to the goods because of the standard unit (1 = 1). 

I believe the point has been blurred because of the examples being used to explain it. The initial comment and focus of the discussion was about the value of one asset comparative to another (finance tickers, XMR/BTC), in which case they cannot have value without being denominated in a standardized UoA like fiat. 

In terms of purchasing goods, I fully agree with you that it is subjective and more people should use Bitcoin as their preferred currency in circular economies. We are just not there yet. 

 my brother in Christ, please let me show you the light.

This is the full valuation 101 from NYU stern from the legend himself. 

Thank me later. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znmQ7oMiQrM&list=PLUkh9m2BorqnKWu0g5ZUps_CbQ-JGtbI9&ab_channel=AswathDamodaran 

 Will definitely check this out, appreciate your input & how you approached responding to me as well. Respect. 🫡💜 

 You're exactly right. Thank you for helping. 

 the value isn't derived from fiat, this is a wrong statement.
it's priced in fiat, but it's value does not come from it's relation to another currency. 

what you're saying is that bitcoin needs to replace the dollar standard of exchange, which in time it will. 
The problem is USDT, the digital dollar which still seeks to price every thing in dollars.

If you want to start this process, then simply change your medium of exchange from fiat to btc. Price everything in BTC or sats and work from there, and voila, you've achieved the 'standard'. Now get more merchants and plebs to use it and voila, we have a 'global standard'

Be prepared for war thought
 

 not "value" methinks, its "price"

value is in the eye of the beholder.
price is the local representation of the value as rendered in a unit of account. 

 Yeah I definitely misspoke there, in my mind I was thinking of price but said value, corrected myself in my next reply haha 

 yeah your meaning was clear.

unfortunately they took it as an opportunity to derail the convo

¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ 

 The eggs are actually worth 4700 sats. 

 probably depends on where you live eh? 😆 

 I got eggs I'll charge about 7K for a dozen 

 You're talking about valuation vs market price. There's many factors that effect both; like quality, quantity, supply and demand. 

The eggs are 4700 sats. They're also $4. Merchants who define their base FX, and then subsequently trade in that, will determine it. 

"we do not accept cash" - a merchant policy for example. "We only accept bitcoin" - another policy

You're not wrong in your understanding, but it's a little strained. Fx exists in any measurable way, x to y. It will always exist in a free market. If one trader has eggs for $4 CAD and another wants to sell bacon, one  could equate eggs/bacon market value, attribute that to and currency and then trade it.

What you're aiming for, like many bitcoiners, is that Bitcoin becomes the standard medium of exchange/unit of exchange, as the dollar is the standard medium of exchange across base input commodities (wheat, soy, gold, rice, cobalt, diamonds, oil) all priced in USD and allows the US to export it's inflation. 
 

 Thank you for the clarification! I think @OceanSlim was right when he said I was over complicating it in my head. This makes a lot more sense. I agree with this sentiment and admit I was incorrect. 

I also agree with your final point, I definitely am aiming for that and working towards grass roots starts with other locals! Starting local circular economies is one small step forward. 💪 

 Sorry if I sounded like a dick or something. I wasn't trying to, it's just so simple that it's hard to explain.  

 Naw you’re good dude, I think we were just struggling to meet in the middle there because of text communication. No offense taken on my end 🤠🫂 

 This is indeed when we get a stable yardstick and can price goods accurately.

In the meantime, as long as USD is the price that fundamental Units things are Accounted, no price can be represented without fiat taint.

Sometimes the taint is very small, like in the case of locally bought eggs. Sometimes it is very large, as in the case of Amazon stock or Tesla. 

 the chinese beat us with that yardstick every time https://image.nostr.build/82192ed8071597a47815d36615066785163fb562187422032aa3f44a12a3a19b.jpg 

 It's only going up because USD is pouring into BTC.
(ANYTHING/USD)÷(BTC/USD)
$ANYTHING goes down as more USD chases BTC.
Still USD denominated.

The price of eggs or any other commodity you care to name is,
the local valuation of eggs divided by the USD cost of that commodity.

iow, USD denominated.

Sure, we can get into other local UOA's, but we know that virtually all of them come back to USD. 

 BTC is not going up. Prices of everything are falling denominated in BTC. Prices are falling forever. 
  

 I didn't say it was 

 Poor guy, you're running around with a ticket full of buggers  aren't you. Oh well one day you will get it.  Or not and that's fine too. There's a place for everyone, even retards. 

 use your brain or GTFO

nostr:nevent1qqsx94969d6yqlu0ngrkp7c2qcd5mmkxpk89y3wnmnf9nwyv72spn0gpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qgs0npwnpyvheqz7zuvuwvv9k460c0hyqlturds40hhfn34vufvehwcrqsqqqqqpezkzts 

 🫰the denominator. I dont have time to explain it if you don't get it. 
🫣 

 cya 

 https://image.nostr.build/a66c68116b885a7f1dc2701f49627395b0e71027c825f531897d4887eb5b77cc.gif 

 you didn't look very far https://i.nostr.build/cu8W8KQDjEYC6y0c.jpg 

 I hope you have someone to occasionally wipe the spittle off your chin

when the relative value of two things, as measured in US dollars, makes a graph. That graph is "denominated" in US dollars.

 https://i.nostr.build/Q4fgRQItsSfexPfd.jpg

 

 Yea they wipe my ass too. 

When I check to see how much Monero I can buy with my bitcoin, I’m denominating Monero in Bitcoin. Where’s the fiat? 

 lol I tried send you some sats to pay them with

the only reason you can make the conversion BTC->XMR 
or to whatever

is because you have an underlying UoA denomination to compare them with.

its the US dollar.
it denominates everything.

you are comparing
two USD denominated prices.

the price of one thing.
as measured in USD.
against.
the price of another thing.
as measured in USD.

fiat graph. 

 Can you tell us how many Monero can be purchased with 1 Bitcoin? Now can you tell us WHY you can buy that many Monero for that amount of Bitcoin? How do they calculate how much Bitcoin is worth in Monero? 

 in all seriousness im very intrigued to know what im missing here, as in what my denominator should be. 
you claim it shouldnt be USD cause it sucks. which we can both agree on 

 I'm called them fiat maxis because they're showing price charts as if USD valuation matters.
I don't think the *really Fiat Maxis, they just don't understand that they're showing a Fiat chart because they misunderstand Unit of Account.

The Unit of Account is how we compare the value of two assets.

It's just a fact that the USD is the world Unit of Account.

I don't think that's how it should be.
but that's how it is.

You or I or anyone doing division in their head doesn't change that.

Until we get a bitcoin standard accurate pricing is impossible. 

 So you have so-called Bitcoin Maxis who are trying to shit on Monero by showing a USD denominated chart.

which *at best* only graphs speculative interest by Cantillionaires.

It's a pretty spectacular self-own.
not that they mean to. It's just lazy thinking that suits their confirmation bias. 

 It's kind of like yen/rmb Imho. Different transaction classes. Tax btc at 10%, idgaf. By the time katillionaires catch on to it they'll be dumping tons into infrastructure and r&d and us roles can base xmr on Oz of mj 

 1 BTC = 1 BTC 

Or 

1 BTC Block = Cost of production 

Then, cost of production should break free from fiat

To break free from fiat one need to disengage from big energy producers and assert Sovereignity, all things considered. 

Others will argue that 1 BTC = Fiat parity is our Trojan Horse. 

Too many vectors, head is hurting. 


nostr:nevent1qqstjpl0vyu5hl85lc38chxcy7uu2adts6ts3vwlwdr9jd5998hhkccppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qgs0npwnpyvheqz7zuvuwvv9k460c0hyqlturds40hhfn34vufvehwcrqsqqqqqpg6gr7j 

 It’s a messy transition as evolution tends to be. This guy and his ChatGPT / word salad responses are noise. 

The best solutions will continue to be chosen by the market and developed by global devs who choose where to put their time + energy. 

Hashrate, liquidity / trading partners and development are strong signal that Bitcoin is what matters and it is the Bitcoin network / stack that will develop into everything humanity needs in money. I really don’t care what happens with shitcoins (fiat included) at this point. It’s the “I don’t think about you at all” meme 

 hey fuck you
i wrote all of these myself and they make a specific point.

your response says nothing except a generic "something will happen because of reasons"

its doesn't matter if you don't think about fiat at all. 
its a fact that prices are denominated in fiat.

that shouldn't be a contentious statement among people who supposedly understand the basic principles of money. 

 Your point is retarded and you are noise. Muted, moving on. 

 show your work or GTFO

If I'm wrong (always possible)
I'm wrong because of a reason

a reason that someone should be able to express.

still waiting. 

 You two 😁

Impossible to find common ground huh 

 finally. cheers.

exactly, right now we are setting prices in fiat.
setting prices in BTC means we are setting them in "energy equivalency units"
or price of block production.

and totally, the exact methodology for *how* the underlying UoA changes is probably way too complicated for any one person to understand.

I think when smaller communities can be more self-reliant and interact with fiat less
they will naturally set prices in a UoA they value more.

i mean,
that not my idea that's basic Mises
 

 So what you're saying is blindly follow sats per dollar index to accurately derive cost-per-goods relative value? 😉😜 On it sarge 

 You have so-called Bitcoin Maxis who are trying to shit on Monero by showing USD denominated charts.

which *at best* only graphs speculative interest by Cantillionaires.

fiat valuation is either a bullshit metric
or it isn't.

it isn't a hard money chart because you divided by the current fiat valuation of BTC.

nostr:nevent1qqsytjshsx7na9jfehhlrzmrckmdf4x3qdvchnyyvlmpamu33ggycugppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qgsrc4vssrmywp62vw8fe3k5cjr6q6l6hqgyq24tnfnef76f5pf320srqsqqqqqphmt7j4 

 https://image.nostr.build/be5c442b77e1235c8d72705dfd0270ab4ccfc2c5c43a4da6bf73e7f243218d48.jpg 

 my monero stack is up 250%
please don't be concerned 

 (and I also have bitcoin)

because you know,
I'm not a maxi zealot asshole. 

 Okay so once again I pose the question if I can't compare BTC/USD and xmr/USD to show how one is out appreciating another. Or you don't like xmr/BTC cause the BTC price is based in  usd. 

How do you compare two assets?

Btw fuck Bitcoin magazine and David Bailey. 

Fuck those fuckin fucks 

 There's no way to compare *any* two assets except through USD. 

That's the problem.

We need an energy-based unit of account in order to have accurate pricing.
Until we have that, pricing is fucked. 

 The thread is just about the hypocrisy of Maxis using USD-denominated measurements when it suits their narrative,
but shitting on fiat measurements the rest of the time.

I was shocked to learn that they, in fact, don't understand unit of account at all.

oh
and how does Bitcoin magazine play into it? 

 I coulda swore I read Bitcoin magazine instead of Bitcoin maxi.

Reading is hard :/

Fuck them regardless.