Oddbean

Hey Slim, I’m a huge Bitcoin supporter and believe that it should be our UoA, but Han is actually correct in what he’s saying. What’s being overlooked is that in charts that have a BTC denominator, the calculation is being made by comparing their relative value in fiat. So if you have ETH/BTC for example, there’s no direct way to determine the value between them without first determining their value in fiat. The value of the pair is calculated by finding the difference between their equivalent fiat value. Hope this elucidates the point a bit better.

I genuinely don’t think you are getting the point here. Please explain to us then: How do you determine what amount of Monero trades for what amount of Bitcoin? Where does the price basis come from? You cannot just reply “Bitcoin is the denominator”. Conversion requires mathematics, so please explain with the equation that determines the value and how it’s done.

They can't see it Han. They think it is smooth sailing until BTC becomes the UoA. They can't see what I call the deep adoption of Monero, which has a similar owners structure as Bitcoin. Likely better. In a blink of an eye Monero and Bitcoin could change roles if one sees wider use as a currency and becomes a kind of UoA even if it is just for a secondary market at the beginning. Monero is closer to that than BTC.

You can arbitrarily start pricing them any way you like. But nobody particularly cares what you or I think, or how we price them. The fact is, society is already pricing them using a unit of account. They are all, Bitcoin, eggs, milk, electricity, bread and water whatever they are all denominated already in a unit of account. You and I don't change that by doing division. It's also irrelevant if the price is slightly different in a different geographical area. Or if it's actually great British pounds rather than US dollars, the unit of accounts still is the same.

It doesn't matter what you start with to determine value at present. The starting point is not involved in the future equation to compare currencies. They are all money. They are all competing to be money. They're not all competing to be USD. USD is just one of the monies competing.

You can determine the value between them by measuring how much of each ot takes to buy a carton of eggs. You can price any good in any currency. Take what it would cost in any local currency and then price eit with Bitcoin. I know there's not many people pricing goods in BTC or ETH or Monero but it doesn't matter. Eggs can be priced in USD, EUR, ETH, and BTC. Volatility keeps merchants from pricing in currencies that are monetizing or demonitizing. You don't see eggs priced in Gold for instance. But you can take any merchants current price in whatever they use and determine what it would be in any other currency. Yes USD is the starting point for most merchants, but not always and there are hundreds or fiats you can compare. Again it doesn't matter what you start in. After you determine value of the eggs in one currency you can do it for all others. Then you can equally compare any currency. It doesn't have to involve the starting point to compare. You're valuing the eggs in dollars, not the dollars in eggs. Now you can value the eggs in BTC, ETH, XMR. Then you can equally compare XMR to BTC. USD not involved in the equation. Things are getting rapidly cheapers with Bitcoin. The denominator is the unit of account. Just change your denominator for any good to BTC from whatever you see it in at the present. Now look at the trend. It's going up forever.

I do understand your train of thought, however two things to point out: 1. I did not once mention USD, I said fiat which is any central currency. 2. Using items that merchants have for sale as the comparison point does not work, because those items are only worth that value in Bitcoin/Monero because they are priced relative to fiat. An example using CAD: Eggs cost $4 a dozen. In Bitcoin the eggs would cost me 0.000047, not because the eggs are actually worth 4700 sats, but because that’s the current conversion from local fiat. The value of the eggs can only be denominated in Bitcoin if Bitcoin is actually the UoA, and thus valuable to the merchant (legal tender, circular economy, etc). If X sats = 1 UoA then it makes sense, but in order to value things in Bitcoin, at this moment in time is HAS to be compared relative to a currency or different form of value, like fiat or gold. You cannot determine the trading price between two currencies or assets using something like eggs, because the value of 1 sat or 1 Bitcoin has not been set at a specific level of understood value, and is calculated by comparison to fiat. In a future where 1 sat is the standard unit of account (ex if those $4 eggs now cost 4 sats), then we could use it as a UoA because there would be a decided amount considered to be the lowest valuable or available(1 cent in fiat). Until then, everything has to be linked back to fiat. This includes financial tickers, so when you look at XMR/BTC, the Monero is only worth what it’s worth in Bitcoin /because/ of the fiat conversion.

This is a “So you hate waffles?” strawman reply dude. Nowhere in my post did I say that or anything close. I said their current value is derived from fiat, and at this moment in time it has to be linked back to that valuation because there’s been no alternative standard determined by society. Once society understands what WE understand (the value of Bitcoin) then things can be priced and compared appropriately because it will reach UoA status.

That's where you're wrong. People don't derive the value of their eggs by using paper with numbers on it. People derive the value of eggs by determining they want to eat them and what they can give in exchange for that want. Value is subjective. Value is not derived from fiat.

You’re right, the value is derived from the fact that it is food, however the price value is able applied to the goods because of the standard unit (1 = 1). I believe the point has been blurred because of the examples being used to explain it. The initial comment and focus of the discussion was about the value of one asset comparative to another (finance tickers, XMR/BTC), in which case they cannot have value without being denominated in a standardized UoA like fiat. In terms of purchasing goods, I fully agree with you that it is subjective and more people should use Bitcoin as their preferred currency in circular economies. We are just not there yet.

my brother in Christ, please let me show you the light. This is the full valuation 101 from NYU stern from the legend himself. Thank me later. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znmQ7oMiQrM&list=PLUkh9m2BorqnKWu0g5ZUps_CbQ-JGtbI9&ab_channel=AswathDamodaran

the value isn't derived from fiat, this is a wrong statement. it's priced in fiat, but it's value does not come from it's relation to another currency. what you're saying is that bitcoin needs to replace the dollar standard of exchange, which in time it will. The problem is USDT, the digital dollar which still seeks to price every thing in dollars. If you want to start this process, then simply change your medium of exchange from fiat to btc. Price everything in BTC or sats and work from there, and voila, you've achieved the 'standard'. Now get more merchants and plebs to use it and voila, we have a 'global standard' Be prepared for war thought

You're talking about valuation vs market price. There's many factors that effect both; like quality, quantity, supply and demand. The eggs are 4700 sats. They're also $4. Merchants who define their base FX, and then subsequently trade in that, will determine it. "we do not accept cash" - a merchant policy for example. "We only accept bitcoin" - another policy You're not wrong in your understanding, but it's a little strained. Fx exists in any measurable way, x to y. It will always exist in a free market. If one trader has eggs for $4 CAD and another wants to sell bacon, one could equate eggs/bacon market value, attribute that to and currency and then trade it. What you're aiming for, like many bitcoiners, is that Bitcoin becomes the standard medium of exchange/unit of exchange, as the dollar is the standard medium of exchange across base input commodities (wheat, soy, gold, rice, cobalt, diamonds, oil) all priced in USD and allows the US to export it's inflation.

Thank you for the clarification! I think @OceanSlim was right when he said I was over complicating it in my head. This makes a lot more sense. I agree with this sentiment and admit I was incorrect. I also agree with your final point, I definitely am aiming for that and working towards grass roots starts with other locals! Starting local circular economies is one small step forward. 💪

This is indeed when we get a stable yardstick and can price goods accurately. In the meantime, as long as USD is the price that fundamental Units things are Accounted, no price can be represented without fiat taint. Sometimes the taint is very small, like in the case of locally bought eggs. Sometimes it is very large, as in the case of Amazon stock or Tesla.

It's only going up because USD is pouring into BTC. (ANYTHING/USD)÷(BTC/USD) $ANYTHING goes down as more USD chases BTC. Still USD denominated. The price of eggs or any other commodity you care to name is, the local valuation of eggs divided by the USD cost of that commodity. iow, USD denominated. Sure, we can get into other local UOA's, but we know that virtually all of them come back to USD.

Thank you! JFC. Although I want to point out that that's not strictly accurate either, because most exchange order books currency pairs are direct and not through fiat. But the rub is that because a million degens are watching those pairs travel precisely in tandem with the fluctuations of fiat price of each asset. Because if they don't, it's trivial to jump into one asset and flip into the other and sell. POOF FREE FIAT. So because of this pressure, all commodity pairs fluctuate tracking with the USD equivalent price of each. They are de facto USD denominated. Because that's the unit of account that everybody is trying to get. this is one of the main reasons why we need a Bitcoin unit of account.