Oddbean

As a Christian, it's troubling that a single point of doctrinal disagreement, such as the deity of Christ, can lead to exclusion from participation in a group that shares the same foundational scriptures. Despite basing my beliefs on the same Bible, I'm often met with irrational reactions, cognitive dissonance, and even demonization, simply for expressing a differing interpretation. This rigid need for uniformity not only causes division but also undermines fellowship, despite the shared core of our faith. Why is it that one doctrinal difference can outweigh the greater unity we should have as followers of Christ? #biblestr

I'd argue that some doctrinal differences may be worthy of debate (because we always want to seek the truth not our personal preference), but some doctrinal differences make such a difference in what we believe that they are worth division. Sadly, the deity of Christ is one of my "no compromise" doctrines. If you don't believe that Jesus is God, then you don't believe in the same God. If you don't believe He is God, you are denying your savior and creator and I believe you will be one of the people described in Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’" Some doctrines are critical to salvation and I believe the deity of Christ is one of them. Some doctrinal differences can have positive or negative influence based on whether they are truth or not, but do not influence whether we are a true, born-again Christian or not. I want the best for you and am willing to spend time defending, using the Bible, the deity of Jesus and why it is so critical. I hope my disagreement will not cause you to withdraw and avoid contact. An honest debate can help us all to come to a greater understanding of the truth if we are all honestly seeking it. I will pray that Jesus will reveal Himself to you.

I likewise believe the same of my understanding of scripture. Where I take issue is the ostracising and demonizing behavior of whose who would willingly move to a jungle and pay witness to a tribe of cannibals, but refuse to acknowledge someone among their own people who worship the same God (yes it is the same God) and who wish to respect their beliefs and engage in dialog on the subject only when prompted to.

I do agree that some people do get very hateful with people who disagree. I definitely don't hate anyone that disagrees with me. I care about the truth and want to help others. I don't think you can have a saving faith in God if you don't believe God is creator, but there are lots of people who believe God created using the big bang and directed evolution to create or believe in the gap theory or the day age theory. I believe all of those are totally contrary to God's word, but that doesn't make their proponents unbelievers. That is not a salvation issue. (If you want my scriptural and scientific arguments, I can give them later). In the same way, there are lots of different beliefs regarding the end times with some believing in a literal millennial reign (like I do) and some believing we are living in the millennial period now. Some believe in pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib. Only one can be right (I believe scripture clearly supports the pre-trib view), but these are not salvation issues and there are plenty of good Christians who disagree with me. I do think that a right view helps you to live the life God intends for you and a wrong view hurts your witness and leads you to bad choices, which is why I am so vocal, but I hope my disagreements are not taken as disrespectful. I am passionate about God. I am passionate about truth. I am passionate about faith. Sometimes my passion may come across badly. I try to speak the truth in love as commanded by the Bible, but like everyone, I'm fallible and make mistakes.

If I said that the Apostles creed fully communicates my faith, but a portion of the nicean creed does not, the the remainder does, how does this give you the knowledge that I am or am not saved? 1 Cor 12:3 KJV Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Joh 7:38 KJV He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Mat 16:15-17 KJV He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

I can't know for sure. Only God knows for sure, but since Jesus is God and you deny His deity it doesn't seem that could be saving faith. I will say, that decision is up to God, not me, so I could always be wrong. In John 10:30 Jesus says "I and the Father are one.” Sounds like Jesus is saying He is God. John 14:7-9 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? " Jesus says knowing Him is knowing the Father and if you have seen Him you have seen the Father. This can only be true if they are one. Even back in Genesis there is reference to the trinitarian nature of God. Genesis 1:26a says, "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" God refers to Himself in the plural. There are lots of other similar references. John 10:32-38 "Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” In this passage the Jews accuse Jesus of "blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus does not deny being God. He says He does His miracles "so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” Jesus claimed to be God. If He isn't God, then He is guilty of blasphemy and can't save anyone. He doesn't allow people to think He is a good man, a prophet, or a teacher, but not God. (John 1:1-4, 14-17) says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. " Do you disagree that these verses are a description of Jesus? It says that He "was with God" and "was God" and that "All things came into being through Him." (aka He is creator) John the Baptist also refers to Jesus as God when he talks of His higher rank and that Jesus existed before John (Other gospels say John was physically born first). I'm not trying to make you feel bad or win an argument for the sake of winning. I just think the Bible doesn't allow us to believe Jesus is anything less than our God and creator.

Thank you for this. Ill read it in detail and reply. In the meantime here is my analysis: nostr:nevent1qqspf8e3txaxec0e3zajuyjqd6ztz24769gaxtz04dfr46tv6myptvqppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qgsvr6dt8ft292mv5jlt7382vje0mfq2ccc3azrt4p45v5sknj6kkscrqsqqqqqp9ssjet

All of that is well argued, but looking at most of them, you have to take a less obvious interpretation to come to your conclusions. You didn't address the clearest claim and the explicit accusation and interpretation made by His opponents. John 10:32-38 "Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” In this passage the Jewish leaders clearly interpret Jesus's claims as claiming He is God. Jesus does not deny this accusation. He makes additional claims of being the Son of God, the Father in Me, and I in the Father. If He was not claiming to be God, He would've denied the accusation instead of making other claims that sound like a claim to God (even if you could argue in some way that He could mean something else). In this context, it would make zero sense to make these statements when He is accused of blasphemy and claiming to be God. If He is not God, He should immediately make that clear, otherwise He is misleading the Jewish leaders which He would not do.

I didn't want to get into that 8 days ago because reality is quite a radical departure from the mainstream Christian understanding. If God sent us, and we are God's sons, then we are gods. There is only one creator, there is only one father, there is only one begotten Son, and there is only one spirit of God within us, but as son's of God, we too are gods along with our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no evidence to prove that Jesus is God. The question of who Jesus is has been answered by Simon Peter with these words: “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:16) To this Jesus replied: “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. If your faith says something else about Jesus you are in deep trouble

I find it interesting that in your analysis of John 1 you stop right before the verses which clearly identify the Word from verse 1 as Jesus the Christ. I'll post in the KJV since it seems to be your preferred version. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 1:14–17.

I did not intentionally leave out anything. I left nothing to to be misunderstood. I certainly didn't delete the verse from the Bible. "The word was made flesh" is plainly clear with the clarification of the previous verses. If you can't see it for yourself, its not up to me to illuminate it further. If you go so far as to accuse me of being dishonest, I'm happy to shake the dust off of my feet and move on.

I did not intend to imply you leaving it out intentionally. However I do agree that verse 14 is clarified by the previous verses, which makes it even more apparent that John is declaring clearly that Jesus is divine and is Himself God. Whether you want to say it is Trinitarian or not we could discuss a different time. However I would say this is clearly referring to the Jewish 2 powers in Heaven doctrine which describes God as 2 persons.

Lets not get into wacky Jewish Talmudic doctrines. Its not a question of whether our Father, God the creator, has two or three heads. Its all ridiculous on its face. What is important is whether we have access to God, through Jesus Christ through faith that Christ is our Lord. I primarily provide my analysis as evidence that my profession of faith isn't arbitrary or unfounded. I come from a heritage of trinitarianism and would never have dared believe anything different. It wasn't until I prayed to know the truth that it was revealed to me, and for this I am grateful, and I've found through this and other elucidations of scripture that a fuller, stronger and less confounding believing is possible.

It wasn't actually a Talmudic doctrine. It was held by the Israelites all the way back into the first temple period. But I agree, we can set it aside. And I agree. The primary message of the Bible does not depend on Trinitarian doctrines. However I do believe it to be important for deeper understanding of our creator. But we will have all of eternity to get to know Him better and I guarantee we will all be wrong about something and will learn better when we see Him face to face.

Yes, Confession is key. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9) We are not righteous in ourselves or our deeds: "as it is written, “There is none righteous , not even one ;" (Romans 3:10) All of our righteousness comes from Jesus: "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Last night I couldn't sleep because my mind was going nonstop based on our discussion yesterday. (I like being challenged, but not when it makes me unable to sleep) I have found the best way to shut up my mind is to organize and write down my thoughts. I wrote down a defense of the deity of Jesus that is much more coherent than what I threw together yesterday. It has many more evidences (and better ones) than I gave yesterday and where I address verses from yesterday, I believe I explained my logic better. I hope you will take a look at it. I'm not sure how to link to a nostr post, so I'll try to tag you on the longform post. It will also be available on my Substack on Sunday. https://trustjesus.substack.com/

I have been considering this a lot recently. What is the minimum requirement for salvation? I see a lot of gatekeeping on all sides of the discussion so I've been trying to get to the bottom of what the Bible says is necessary for salvation. Looking at examples of people in both the Old and New Testaments. Take Rahab for example, she basically only knew that God had been destroying other nations and she and her family were saved. In the New Testament we have examples like the Ethiopian eunuch who it says was taught starting in Isaiah about who the Christ is and what He did. And I keep coming back to 1 Corinthians 15:1-11 where Paul describes the Gospel as he proclaimed it to the Corinthians. 1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. The Holy Bible: English Standard Version, (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), 1 Co 15:1–11. I think the conclusion that I have tentatively come to is that the foundation of the Gospel of Jesus the Christ is that we are dead in our sin with no hope, Jesus came and lived a perfect life, He was killed as a payment for our sin, and He rose again defeating death and giving us hope for the resurrection. Now there are other things besides these that I see as important, however I am currently reluctant to call someone an unbeliever so long as they hold to these foundational doctrines.