Oddbean

Funny that every time something privacy related happens, our Monero bros ride the wave to tell us how we should have listened and used their coin instead. Sure, I don't mind "using" it, but it is nothing like Bitcoin on every other aspect aside from offering anonymous payments, which can be achieved on lightning anyway and without having a token.

the privacy use case of lightning just has not been fleshed out well by anyone yet, it's there... i was designing a tor-like relay network last year that used a form of onion TLVs with source routing and micro accounts paid for by keysend/AMP payments, which required a different arrangement to public LN node networks - primarily do small payments and are mostly automated and they more openly advertise their channels between each other because you don't pay them by asking for invoices, you just zap them with a special code that unlocks a two key message to pay for a session and then you can use the node in a hop for general network traffic relaying https://github.com/indra-labs/indranet in case you are curious would be cool to get it at least to a point of running a test network to explore how effective it is... the thing was that it uses libp2p which limits the scale of its connectivity, it really needs a connectionless UDP protocol so relays don't need to know about the existence of the next hop, only its address and port

Is that easy. 💯 A wave of ignorant people entered the network since 2020... people who just jump of a narrative which they want to believe ... My point is that most people simply repeat things that they themselves have not understood in depth... they obsessively want to belong.... ego, the root of all evil

Ok, thanks for letting us know, but you might want to remove the plank from your own eye first. Very small compared to what? Your Bitcoin anon set is only as large as your coinjoin peers. And only a tiny fraction of Bitcoiners ever coinjoin much less every transaction. Every single Monero transaction sent is a "coinjoin". And Monero stealth address receiver anon set is literally EVERY MONERO USER THAT HAS EVER EXISTED. Bitcoin is the one with the tiny anon set and it is not even technically anonymous.

That's Bitcoins problem now isnt it? Bitcoins privacy issues are it's own. Has nothing to do with transactions made on Monero. Second, you actually can do this thru p2p txns on Bisq, or atomic swaps via UnstoppableSwap or BasicSwapDEX. Several more on the way with Haveno and Serai later this year. Better than even coinjoins as there is no way for any third party to know a swap even occurred by looking at either blockchain. It's obvious to see when Bitcoin has been coinjoined. Also, it doesn't have to be Bitcoin. You can buy Monero directly with fiat p2p with several options above, or LocalMonero/AgoraDesk. There are also cheaper and more private crypto you can go thru like Litecoin and MWEB.

I need to swap in with Bitcoin because I’m not trying to stay poor but the swap itself leaks privacy. So I have to practice good privacy with the Bitcoin already. Then I have to find people that trade with in monero which is nearly impossible so I end up stuck again. If you’re suggesting I use fiat cash to get monero, then why not just trade bitcoin for fiat cash and then buy whatever I need with the fiat?

How does the swap leak privacy? There is literally no way for any third party looking at the chain to know Bitcoin moving from address A to address B was actually a swap for Monero. Impossible lol? Seems like you have never done it or don't know how because it is easy as shit. There are always users on either side of the trade. I just showed you several ways to go XMR <-> Bitcoin/crypto or XMR <-> fiat p2p. I can hand hold you thru the process if you really want. Yea, you can use fiat cash locally if you want and it is useful. But you can't use fiat cash digitally. And digital fiat, crypto, and Bitcoin aren't private. Monero is essentially the only thing that is digital and gives you strong privacy without compromising sovereignty.

When you swap bitcoin for monero, you have to send the bitcoin to an address on chain. That address is not going to look like a traditional bitcoin address (e.g. starts with bc1), so on chain it can be identified as a swap. Correct me if I’m wrong on that. But that’s what I mean about leaking privacy. If I own the bitcoin and Feds know I own it, they can reasonably assume that I swapped into monero. So even if I use bitcoin as savings and monero for spending, I still need to practice good privacy in Bitcoin. Plus I don’t know any online businesses that accept monero.

That's not so. It's literally just Bitcoin moving from [address A] to [address B] like any other Bitcoin transaction you see on chain. Impossible to know from someone observing the chain that it was actually a swap for Monero. How would the feds know you swapped your Bitcoin to Monero or vice versa? It would literally look the exact same way as above if they were monitoring the chain. They have no insight into the other side of the swap or why it is moving. Unless your peer doing the swap with you was a fed? Then ok, yes, but that's different. And if you were going from BTC -> XMR in that case it wouldn't matter to some extent if they were a fed because they couldn't trace the XMR they gave you. Thanks to stealth addresses they would have no clue where it really went. I'm just trying to give you the correct info. From there you can decide whatever you want to do. Use monero or don't use it. Up to you. Scroll down to "⭐WHERE CAN I SPEND MONERO?" Monerica directory has many options especially: https://pb.envs.net/?8c6e45d76a233681#GRCjqnVXPVMqzbZB9xjMAMTaMCrNGNRF5pYCKojtffjm

My understanding is that swap addresses look different from btc addresses. Since a swap has a function it has to complete and not just hold bitcoin. So swapping into monero would be somewhat identifiable on chain. What happens after that may be private but that seems very similar to liquid.

Ok, so if I'm trading you p2p on something like AgoraDesk or Bisq there isn't a special address on Bitcoin that is only used specifically for swaps, so I'm not really sure what you mean. It's just me sending Bitcoin from my bc1 address to your bc1 address. Many even offer PGP to communicate so AgoraDesk has no clue on any details about the txn, unless a dispute arises you can reveal your conversation, but that is very rare. I've never had to do that and been using both for years. Even for atomic swaps, AFAIK, they might have metadata like a hash or something that might stand out more from average txns, but there is nothing that would tell you it was specifically for a Monero swap or a swap at all. I know specifically for BasicSwapDEX they go a step further and use adaptor signatures and Scriptless Scripts that work off-chain to hide what little there metadata there even is, but I can't tell you the specific details on how it works off the top of my head. Liquid only hides amounts. It's still traceable because senders and receivers aren't hidden. Custodial too. https://tlu.tarilabs.com/cryptography/introduction-to-scriptless-scripts

Yea, I don't think the technical privacy differences of both coins played any role with the Samourai event, but the fallout of it is actually relevant (Samourai requires xpubs, centralized coordinators, etc) Lightning being more private isnt even true theoretically, but more importantly it's not true in practice.

Forgive me for being suspicious but seems like even more vaporware... What wallets currently support them? Is it widely used? Because I would like to mess around with it. And what is up with bolt 12?