Oddbean new post about login | logout I'd help actively build the wall, but I'm not going to be forced to do it. I would not live with a group that believes coercion is correct. I'm capable of surviving on my own, but, I'm too useful to be kicked out of anywhere. *shrugs* I'll be happy on my own land.
But what if someone didn’t want to help build the wall? Same thing applies, are they forced to help, or forced to leave? When you live with your group of people who don’t believe in coercion, how would you coordinate with them to build a wall to protect yourselves?
Primarily, everyone is responsible for themselves and their families. Don't be a douchecanoe to your neighbors and things tend to work out pretty well.
Yeah, I can agree with that 100%. That’s still not an argument against taxes.
You also still haven't provided me with an argument for them, either, except: this list of things is better as a group so everyone needs to pay them whether they want to or not. I'll take ignorant freedom over well-thought out tyranny any day.
The argument I provided is valid though. Your group of ignorantly free people will just get taken over or die. Or the quality of life will be much much lower because you don’t live in a society with the division of labor. There is no way for you guys to collectively congregate and make group level decisions.
You speak like you've never built relationships with neighbors before. Geez, dude. If you have to force prior to do something, your ideas or you are at fault. I help run a big volunteer org. We sign millions of dollars worth of contracts with all sorts of groups. Sometimes those contracts are broken (not by us, mind you), and you just deal with it. We put on events in several locations across the world. We have never once thought that adding more government would make that easier. I know how to negotiate, follow, and lead, even under duress. (remember: I'm a veteran.) I'm willing to work with good people on good ideas to make lives better, and am, in fact, more capable of that than most. My quality of life is pretty awful right now. (My fault, honestly.) It would only get better if I didn't have the onerous burden of the state on my back.
No, I have built relationships with my neighbors. It is hard to imagine, and I don’t know for sure, but I suspect you would find it much more difficult for your org to do a lot of the things that it does without the state. And if not your org directly, then maybe indirectly because of the people you work with. And yeah, you say that you just deal with contracts being broken, but surely you can imagine a situation where there is a contract that gets broken that you can’t just eat the loss of. There need to be ways to resolve these without just resorting to violence.
OK, so, did you build relationships by pointing a gun at their head and saying "we need to get along or else?" No. Nope. Dumb travel interferences, subsidization leading to less competition meaning higher costs and lower quality service, dealing with idiotoc and capricious tarrifs, limitations on transporting currency, the threat of federal prison for various non-violent "offenses," etc. That's not worth dealing with. Though, I don't mind a check when crossing boarders to another country. Yup. And it would suck, but I'd survive. Or not. Then it's not my worry anymore. I'd still rather not have da gubment involved.
None of what you just said is an argument against taxes. It’s all critiques of the government, how big it is, and what it’s doing. And that’s all valid. And, as a minarchist, I probably agree with you on a ton of that stuff. But you can critique all of that and still argue in favor of taxes.
Can you explain to me how taxation isn't coerced? Specifically in my case, where I do so not wish to pay taxes? Also: why coercively tax people? There are other ways to find things that don't require coercion. There was no income tax in the US until the Civil War, then it was repealed until 1913. I have never once agreed to any of this. Don't you dare claim that by participating in giving my permission. You don't ask the rape victim the same question because that's disgusting. Taxation is just as disgusting to me.
I feel like I have provided plenty of arguments against these points, but let’s try it a different way. Can you name for me a good or service that are you are willing to pay for?
No, you have not. You haven't addressed the moral implication of the state and taxes. You still wish to put a gun to my head to ensure that you get what you think is right and proper, and that cannot be either. Food, at least until I have my own land and can produce most of my own.
Can I recommend reading The Dawn of Everything by Graeber and Wengrow? Civil societies existed without the state for thousands of years. Archaeological evidence proves some of them were without central authorities and still survived.
Indeed, there was nothing resembling the monolithic state apparatus today in pre-historic societies, that were clan-oriented. So, while the individual freedom was purportedly much higher, individual possibilities were otoh much lower because of the constant scarcity due to oow technology. Also, in some societies (communities, rather), lethal violence was off the scale compared to current day society.
What I found interesting about the book is how super violent communities lived right next door to peaceful ones, both obviously choosing to live the opposite of what they saw next door and becoming more and more extreme in their opposition to the other. I think it has something to say about human nature and modern politics.
Unpopular opinion: this generation is too free with too many options created by free time due to technical advances. If I had to defend my position I would begin with personal experience. I often experience too many options as paralising. The lack of constraints on how I live and who I listen to as an authority is a difficult responsibility to bear. If I had to just get on with making my community a better place and spend more time in the home cooking and cleaning and less time pondering the possibilities it could be easier 🤷🏽♀️. I guess I just admitted to understanding why people feel they need the state to decide their morals for them. And for an example of how it is bad for society: Kids these days have time to wander whether or not they are the gender of their biological reality. They should be learning how to survive but instead confusion is being pushed on them in order to give them mental illnesses and make them easier to control... The people who come up with the lies should be working constructively to improve their own lot and that of their family and community rather than making this sh*t up and teaching it to children and adults through inclusion programs.
Personally, I think you're spot on. 👍👏
Who? I can’t tell who anyone is replying to anymore 😂
Lol. Sorry, I was talking to @Nobody.
I agree - too many inputs (constant datastream) while, especially for boys, there are too few "accepted" outputs to behavior and energy.
Interesting, dont have that one of Graeber's, will read. Cloudflare link for anyone else - https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/bafykbzacedbfzbq3fcggxje2zru3ci4oqers3o6v6c7ljr5vestoh6bv5yfbs?filename=David%20Graeber%2C%20David%20Wengrow%20-%20The%20Dawn%20of%20Everything_%20A%20New%20History%20of%20Humanity%20%282021%29.pdf